Going Back??

PYI pss is the only way to go. That brand is the only one I will install. Others all seem to have designed in faults. Both my current boats have them. It must be installed correctly, not hard to do. Extremely dependable and troublefree. Have installed around 50 or so as a professional with no comebacks or trouble reported. As they are maintainance free they beat a packing gland hands down.

You are pumping grease or oil into the water (pollution) or your bilge , yuk. A lip seal will by definition wear out. When your boat was built shaft seals for pleasure boats had not been marketed. I had a albino type boat like yours back then and I’m amazed that p g has lasted this long, must have had great maintenance. Put a PYI PSS in at next haul out.

I confess approaching this issue as an industrial mechanic, used to working on machinery shaft oil seals, pump packing, cylinder rod seals, and so on. I have seen many equipment failures.

When I got to evaluation of the shaft seal on the boat I ended up buying to refit, I resolved that nothing people talked about on the water made much sense, especially a "dripless" seal on a shaft that wobbles around as the engine vibrates, or steam era stuffing boxes. (having the shaft push the transmission/engine on rubber didn't make much sense either.)



I ended up designing a seal something similar to what Moby Nick has on his Albin, and shortly after that discovered that I was re-inventing the wheel. I could buy it right off the shelf: Norscot Shaft Seal | Ibsen Company I'm not in the water yet, so we'll see, but I don't expect to lose any sleep on this.


The nice thing is that it's short, and I needed all the space I could get to make room for the Python drive, after moving the engine forward 3 1/2" and building a new structural bulkhead. Pythondrive The ideal flexible and vibration-free drive unit



YMMV

I started this thread 9 days ago because my seal was leaking 80 gallons a day. The bilge pump was keeping up just fine. I thought it was a dripless seal. I later was able to get to it and found it was NOT a dripless seal.

Almost to man, the Traditional stuffing box was preferred. Those that preferred the dripless seal were those that made a living from selling/installing dripless seals AND thost that had invested in one and did not want to admit it was a bad choice.

The reasons for rejecting them that was most given was that NO ONE had heard of a boat sinking because of a Traditional Stuffing Box but several from diffused areas had heard or been witness to sinkings or near sinkings cused by dripless seals.

Back to the current leaking seal in my boat. After nine days, the leak has slowed to 8 gallons a day with nothing being done except pumping the bilge.

After the first post I discovered that the seal on my boat was NOT a dripless seal. Had it been, it would STILL be leaking 80 gallons a day. Because it is a traditional packing box, it has healed itself with growth and other flotsam that have filled the tinny leaks thru the flax. Had I been running the engine, this "healing" would not have taken place. I also found (I purchased the boat April 1st and moved it for the first time to my slip on July 15th) that the leak was much worse after the move. Then discovered that I was miss-using the Auto/Bypass switch on the bilge pump.

I had elected to do nothing until I could book a haul out because I didnt want to aggravate the situation and I THOUGHT that I had a dripless seal and would have to haul the boat.

Now, why was the stuffing box leaking so badly? Simple, after interviewing two previous owners I found that the gland had NEVER been tightened in 6 years. They just relied on the bilge pump to remedy the situation!!!!

Since one of the biggest manuf (shall remain nameless) recommends replacing the bellows every 5 to 6 years, I think this very abused traditional stuffing box did admirably in that even after all that abuse it didnt threaten to sink the boat.

I will now be able to just tighten the gland and be back to normal. After I add the grease fitting as described here and takes 30 min. and $2 worth of parts.......

https://www.sailboat-cruising.com/creating-a-dripless...

like I had on my previous two sailboats, it will be dripless and maintenance free. One squirt with the grease gun anytime it starts dripping. If it needs repacking it can be done IN THE WATER without a $1500 haulout.

Capt Bill 3 said:

You are pumping grease or oil into the water (pollution) or your bilge , yuk. A lip seal will by definition wear out. When your boat was built shaft seals for pleasure boats had not been marketed. I had a albino type boat like yours back then and I’m amazed that p g has lasted this long, must have had great maintenance. Put a PYI PSS in at next haul out.

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Not pollution if you are using Marine Grease as recommended.

Jimi, if you just purchased a new boat, and it’s leaking that incredible amount (as opposed to 80 DROPS per day) then you absolutely should remove all the old packing and “re-stuff” it. Not difficult to do and gives a big peace of mind. Should last you for years to come. I had grease fittings also, but I don’t know if they are recommended if you are using graphite or silicon type packing material. Gotta check that.

makobuilders said:

Jimi, if you just purchased a new boat, and it’s leaking that incredible amount (as opposed to 80 DROPS per day) then you absolutely should remove all the old packing and “re-stuff” it. Not difficult to do and gives a big peace of mind. Should last you for years to come. I had grease fittings also, but I don’t know if they are recommended if you are using graphite or silicon type packing material. Gotta check that.

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Thanks, that is exactly what my course of action is going to be. The leak has slowed from the original 80 gallons a day to just one drop every 5 seconds just by letting it set. it is now slow enough I can open it up to re stuff it.

Lasdrop dripless seal - no bellows, just high quality silicone hose.
Nothing in my bilge bust dust.

boatpoker said:

Nothing in my bilge bust dust.

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Wow that's way too clean. The only dirt I see are the bread crumbs from where you ate your sandwich. Are you sure that engine has ever been started???

makobuilders said:

Wow that's way too clean. The only dirt I see are the bread crumbs from where you ate your sandwich. Are you sure that engine has ever been started???

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Just back to Toronto last month from 18 month cruise Bahamas/Florida.
I have kept all my boats this way. The Perkins below had 20,000hrs on it when that shot was taken. The Volvo had 8,000hrs on it.

I have a PYI Dripless on my current boat, and had one on my last two sailboats. I must live a charmed life as I've yet to drown or had a boat sink under me.

makobuilders said:

Wow that's way too clean. The only dirt I see are the bread crumbs from where you ate your sandwich. Are you sure that engine has ever been started???

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Yeah, pretty impressive. His ER is shinier than the outside of my boat!

dhays said:

I have a PYI Dripless on my current boat, and had one on my last two sailboats. I must live a charmed life as I've yet to drown or had a boat sink under me.

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It has nothing to do with "Charmed Life" It is NOT a common thing or they would be out of business. But if there is one chance in 1000, its too much for me to risk MY boat. And I, personally, know of TWO near sinkings. I know of NO near sinkings caused by a traditional stuffing box failure. I wont take that chance when a traditional Stuffing Box has virtually NO chance of failing in a way that will sink the boat.

Drippless seals only need a small piece of sea weed or sand to get between the plates to sink the boat. There is NO way for debris of any kind to cause a sinking with a traditional stuffing box.

Shaft seals are a "necessary evil" I chose "the lessor of two evils."

jimisbell said:

It has nothing to do with "Charmed Life" It is NOT a common thing or they would be out of business. But if there is one chance in 1000, its too much for me to risk MY boat. And I, personally, know of TWO near sinkings. I know of NO near sinkings caused by a traditional stuffing box failure. I wont take that chance when a traditional Stuffing Box has virtually NO chance off failing in a way that will sink the boat.

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I understand and that makes sense, ie why do anything or use a product that might have an additional risk when their are other alternatives. A traditional shaft packing gland has less risk of catastrophic failure. Given that, a decision to avoid a dripless seems prudent.



Even so, we pick and chose what risks to accept. I guess I like living on the edge because besides having a dripless shaft seal, I also don't close every thru-hull when I leave the boat, I have a propane stove for cooking, leave my empty boat plugged into shore power for weeks at a time, and don't have an anchor watch display in my sleeping cabin. All of those things cause unnecessary risk and have alternatives of which I don't avail myself.

dhays said:

Even so, we pick and chose what risks to accept. I guess I like living on the edge because besides having a dripless shaft seal, I also don't close every thru-hull when I leave the boat, I have a propane stove for cooking, leave my empty boat plugged into shore power for weeks at a time, and don't have an anchor watch display in my sleeping cabin. All of those things cause unnecessary risk and have alternatives of which I don't avail myself.

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I agree with all that you say. And each person needs to evaluate the risk they are willing to take. Part of it is psychological as well.

I am not afraid of water and love boating and in a previous life I was a Lifeguard. BUT in my mind the thought of suffocating under water because I will not open my mouth and try to breath water, scares the hell out of me. So I have a Traditional packing box.

I do not have an anchor alarm in the sleeping cabin either.....well,yes I do, its in my head. The three tubes in my ear channels are very sensitive and I can sense a wind change of 30 degrees by the way the swells hit the hull and it WILL wake me up. I call it my Polynesian Navigator gene. But I understand that not all people have this gift so thats why anchor alarms sell. But I dont have one.

I had propane on all my sailboats, with the pilot turned off and the tanks outside the hull. With a trawler, electric is convenient because of the large genset so thats what I have now. Why risk propane when I dont need to. Besides my wife hates cooking so we usually go into town.....LOL

BUT I do close all through hulls when leaving the boat. Its a PITA but I feel better and I think my insurance company does also.

OK, but what is the risk with leaving shore power attached? I dont because I use solar panels to keep everything going. But what are the risks of shore power outside of electrolysis? I hadnt heard that one before.

jimisbell said:

BUT I do close all through hulls when leaving the boat. Its a PITA but I feel better and I think my insurance company does also.

OK, but what is the risk with leaving shore power attached? I dont because I use solar panels to keep everything going. But what are the risks of shore power outside of electrolysis? I hadnt heard that one before.

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On my sailboats I used to close every thru-hull when leaving the boat. I don’t now because there are just so many!

The shore power cord isn’t a high risk issue, but with the constant power running through potentially poor connections at the pedestal or the boat side, there is a risk of fire. Again, I don’t worry about it too much, I just keep those connections in good shape.

boatpoker said:

I have kept all my boats this way. The Perkins below had 20,000hrs on it when that shot was taken. The Volvo had 8,000hrs on it.

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I used to wipe my Jimmies down with diesel to keep the rust and scale off them. They looked good for being 50 years old but the smell of diesel was not enjoyable.

What type of oil do you use to wipe them with:

dhays said:

On my sailboats I used to close every thru-hull when leaving the boat. I don’t now because there are just so many!

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The first thing I do when I acquire a "new" boat. is to count the holes in the bottom and decide if they are all needed. Usually they are not all needed and there are several that can be combined with a manifold.


With two water cooled engines, two ACs, and a toilet on my new 1978 Mainship 34 I need 5. Maybe 4 if I can combine the AC intakes. But I have 6 so I have work to do. I havent worked out what the 6th one is yet. Just got the boat in April and working on other priority's.


My Bruce Roberts 44 had 13 holes and only needed 4 ! ! !


As a boat ages it seems to collect more holes, like barnacles.

Dripless Shaft Seal

The new PSS Pro shaft seals are recommended for up to 10 years. They have a new bellows made of silicon that is impervious to oil, fuel etc. I wouldn't go back to a packing gland.

I've had nothing but trouble with PSS, it's a scary feeling to see your bilge filling up with water underway, they are too finicky for my taste and prone to failure. Every boating messaging board has people with issues, I should know because I have searched them all trying to get my leak fixed. I can't wait to get hauled out and send this garbage shaft seal to the dump.

when I first got my boat in 2002, I had as a high priority replacing the 'old fashioned' shaft log with a PSS or equivalent.

due to other things, It was a few years before I got around to it. In the meanwhile, I used GFO packing in the original log. I would have a few drips to dump out at the end of a long day of cruising & thought that the ultimate experience would be a dry bilge via a dripless seal.


I did finally replace the old with new tech & still had about the same amount of residual dripping, plus the added fear of the bellows tearing out one day.


So, after a few years of dripless, I returned to the 'old' style of packing gland. Still use GFO. It lasts indefinitely, hardly drips underway when adjusted properly and no worries about catastrophic failures.


If I had to do it over again, I would skip the dripless experiment.

bshanafelt said:

when I first got my boat in 2002, I had as a high priority replacing the 'old fashioned' shaft log with a PSS or equivalent.

due to other things, It was a few years before I got around to it. In the meanwhile, I used GFO packing in the original log. I would have a few drips to dump out at the end of a long day of cruising & thought that the ultimate experience would be a dry bilge via a dripless seal.


I did finally replace the old with new tech & still had about the same amount of residual dripping, plus the added fear of the bellows tearing out one day.


So, after a few years of dripless, I returned to the 'old' style of packing gland. Still use GFO. It lasts indefinitely, hardly drips underway when adjusted properly and no worries about catastrophic failures.


If I had to do it over again, I would skip the dripless experiment.

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My experience is similar except that I didn't have to pay for the PSS seal, a previous owner did.

I also wanted the dripless seal for my previous boat. I was tired of dealing with the old stuffing box with flax packing. Then I heard about GFO packing and made the switch. It turned my old stuffing box dripless. 10+ years later the GFO packing was still in good shape. Then I bought my current boat. It came with dripless shaft seals and they're not dripless. I've made adjustments, sanded the surfaces, burped to no avail. So at the next haul-out, I'm going back to the old style SB with GFO. That said, if GFO packing didn't exist, I don't know if I would make the switch back.

I like nothing but dust in my bilge.
I have a great loathing for a dripless seal with bellows .... the weakness is obvious.

3yrs. and 5,600miles motoring with a Lasdrop seal with Silicone hose, not a drip, not a problem ..... think I'll keep it

Dripless shaft seals

This subject has some committed disciples on either side. When I bought my GB 36, I wanted to return to the original stuffing box on principle. When I couldn't find one in my shaft size (like rubbers?) I just hung in. I have had zero seal problems, and zero leakage. I was raised on a workboat with a traditional shaft log with stuffing box. I get it. And maybe it's not right for everyone. Here in SoCal, I have not had a leaf of seagrass, or a speck of sand get far enough up the shaft log to disturb my sleep. I check it as part of my pre-cruise check list, but I'd do that with a stuffing box too. I wouldn't dismiss it unless it was causing you problems. Mine never has, and the new one (just out of the yard) looks bulletproof. I'd say go with what you've got if it's working.l

jimisbell said:

Thanks, that is exactly what my course of action is going to be. The leak has slowed from the original 80 gallons a day to just one drop every 5 seconds just by letting it set. it is now slow enough I can open it up to re stuff it.

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I had lots of leaks using flax.
I switched to GFO packing.
No more leaks, that same packing has been in there over 10 YEARS, its good stuff, no need for these fancy expensive dripless contraptions. And my old shafts were sightly scored, it still sealed.

Pack it and forget it, I almost never look anymore. I also put the GFO in the bronze rudder gland.

"Water coming in was more than his bilge pump could handle."

While it is uncommon the failure of the dripless CAN sink the boat.

The GFO style is a true advance over ancient style packing and dripless

I can find no reason not to use GFO and not worry about seal lubrication .or sinking.

Install it and forget it , sounds good to me.