Repowering our 30 ft Sundowner

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Hey Rocky. ...you are a great resource for me, being you are a 30 ft sundowner owner. I have a 70hp pathfinder in my 30 SD. It has a blown head gasket. My engine is a 5 cylinder. Parts are very hard to find for the 5 cylinder . How dose the 80 hp cat 3034t fit in the ER and are you happy with the performance? And if so.. did you use the old gear or bought new gear with cat motor....
 
My pathfinder engine is a 5 cylinder. The 5 cylinders are very difficult to find parts. The head gasket it blown. This is a good time to repower. But it is not easy. They don't make the perkins 4236 any more. The cat smallest engines (marine) is a 150. I have some boater friend that have the yanmar, which I was very interested in, said they are very expensive o. Parts and you have to order each and every part seperatly, not kits. So I'm leaning towards the beta (kobota). So much involved. Engine hp, rp., gear ratio, prop size and pitch , dimensions and weight and room in ER. Size and weight of vessel. And who to remove and install engine . But anyway. I will wade through it. Thank you so much for your response
 
Eris,
To bad you don’t have a FD boat.
You’d only need 35hp if it didn’t weigh over 10 tons.
 
30 Sundowner Repower

Eris if you do a complete new repower it could easily cost you $30K or more.

Why don’t you consider a complete rebuild of the 5 cylinder Audi block you have. I mean replace or rebuild everything on or near the engine. New salt and fresh water pumps, all new hoses and belts, rebuild/replace the injectors, rebuild the fuel injector pump, new/rebuilt alternator, rebuild transmission, clean out coolant bundle. In other words replace or renwew everything. Don’t let one thing go untouched! Also check the prop shaft, cutlass bearings and prop too. This will be way cheaper than a new engine/tranmission and probably working on the drive train and exhaust too.

I know a rebuild is not as exciting as a new drive train and all the anticipation that goes along with it but a new engine will not give you any if much increase in performance from what you now have. I hate to be the reasonable voice here because I am the ultimate dreamer about all things boat related but you will never get your money out of a new engine etc. Keep what you have and rebuild it at considerable savings in borh time and money. It may seem a little like “kissing your sister” to rebuild and not do new but seriously consider it.

Rocky
 
"The 5 cylinders are very difficult to find parts. The head gasket it blown. This is a good time to repower. But it is not easy."

It may be hard to find, but a head gasket may blow because the Anti Freeze was not serviced ,or the head re torqued.

An engine swop will be big bucks $10,000 to $20,000,,, a lot to replace a (at Volvo prices $200) head gasket.


There seems to be a number of VW diesel engine rebuilders on Google.
 
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Today I'm taking out the pilot house bench and a/c unit so can get to engine. Im also considering maybe a newer rebuilt engine. But your advice is diffently the most reasonable and makes the most sence. Next week I will know . Hopefully. Thank you . I'm over whelmed.
 
Final from Al on specs of Sundowner with Perkins 2-236: My acquaintance called to give information on his Sundowner. His Perkins 4-236 has a 2:1 gear and runs a 22X13 wheel. and runs it at 1800 RPM for a 6 knot cruise. WOT RPM-2400 (Over propped) Max factory RPM rated to 2800 RPM

Al-Ketchikan
 
If you have a new engine put in, it will probably have a nice paint job and the new engine will look great. Several years ago, before we switched to a trawler, we had a new Volvo D2-50 installed in our Bristol 40 sailboat. At that time, Volvo painted over everything with Volvo green, including hoses and hose clamps. We learned the hard way that neither Volvo nor the Volvo certified installer of the new engine checked the hose clamps to make sure they were tightened.

On the first trip after the new engine was installed, we came close to sinking the boat. We were in Galveston Bay, close to the Houston Ship Channel when we discovered that the bilge was completely full of water and we had water about 12 inches of water above the cabin sole. This put the water very close to the engine. The bilge pumps were overwhelmed and the water was getting deeper.

On this boat, getting into the engine compartment wasn't easy or quick. We had turned the boat around and were headed back to the shipyard. We quickly figured out that the faster we went, the more water came in, so we slowed down. We broke out the manual bilge pump and the 5 gallon bucket, and called Tow Boat US for help. It took Tow Boat US about 10 minutes to get to us. They had a Rule 3700 bilge pump with a long discharge hose and a long cable with battery clips (we now have one just like that). Fortunately our batteries weren't under water. We dropped the pump in the bilge, threw the hose over the side, hooked up the battery clips, and the water level started going down.

When we got back to the shipyard dock and into the engine compartment, we found that the 1 1/2" sea water hose had blown off of the sea water pump discharge, so the pump was discharging most of the flow into the bilge. Apparently some of the flow was still getting through the heat exchanger because the engine didn't over-heat. Make sure to check all of those hose clamps on the new engine yourself, even if they are painted-over and look beautiful. One hose clamp that hadn't been tightened almost made us sink.
 
I'm Eris's other half! She's the captain and I'm content being the deck hand. Thanks for all the valuable info that has been provided, now it's come to crunch time. We have been priced out of every type of new engine, Beta Marine, Kubota, Cummings, Volvo Penta etc. Yanmar is the most affordable new engine that we have found, the 4JH80 model. To help make the decision would like an informal vote from the forum, scale of 1 - 10, 10 being the best let us know your thoughts on purchasing this motor. Be brutally honest, we respect your opinion and knowledge. Thanks.
 
Nomad Willy said:
Al,
How much does the 236 Perky weigh?
HP?

The Sundowner only needs 50to 65hp. The boat usually has more because marketing usually requires more. It probably only takes about 25 to 30hp to drive this boat. But I admit it may take double that amount to sell it. Because of our close relationship to automobiles most people feel they need an abundance of horsepower. Don’t need it on a slow boat. I know this is falling on largely deaf ears but I feel compelled to express it. But what is obvious is that all these overpowered boats will spend their lives underloaded.

If it was my boat I’d be looking at;
1. Isuzu 54hp marineized by Yukon or Klassen.
2. Yanmar 55hp.

The Isuzu is a very inexpensive industrial engine Klassen has been marinizing and selling Isuzus for 50 years. I saw a new Klassen/Isuzu engine go into a boat in the 60’s. Excellent basic engine. Not absolutely sure they are available w/o the turbo though.
Yanmars are very available used and new. Old ones are higher rpm engines and I know of no downside to that. Later ones are a 3000rpm engine. The JH series has an excellent reputation.
Click to expand...

I think this is good advice. Can't hurt to get a price on the Isuzu. I'm going to.
 
Speaking of Yanmar, I believe there is no such thing as a "Yanmar block." My particular engine is a Toyota Land Cruiser engine not sold as such in USA. They use GM and lots of other manufacturers' stuff.
 
Oh my goodneas. Scary event. I will without a dought check each and ever clamp. I will probably run my first 5 hrs with engine hatch open... I'm so happy the horrible event you experience had a good ending. NO BOAT SUNK. Thank you so much Rosborough for the advice...
 
I'm going to echo those that say fix what you've got. Pop the old one out, have a complete rebuild, pop it back in, and you're set. Isn't this a VW motor? Maybe buy a long block and swap things over.

Getting a repower right takes a lot of work. Would you buy the Yanmar with a transmission and control panel? Apart from the need to re-engineer the motor mounts do you know if you'll need a new shaft and/or propeller? Exhaust/riser? Is there clearance for a larger prop if you're increasing hp? Would you do this yourself? If not the costs are going to likely be high.
 
Jeff F said:
I'm going to echo those that say fix what you've got. Pop the old one out, have a complete rebuild, pop it back in, and you're set. Isn't this a VW motor? Maybe buy a long block and swap things over.

Getting a repower right takes a lot of work. Would you buy the Yanmar with a transmission and control panel? Apart from the need to re-engineer the motor mounts do you know if you'll need a new shaft and/or propeller? Exhaust/riser? Is there clearance for a larger prop if you're increasing hp? Would you do this yourself? If not the costs are going to likely be high.
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We have checked with two Pathfinder (Audi) dealers, the only two in the US we could find. They say that even the head gasket is not available because it has 5 valves and due to it's age, 34 years old, the safest thing to do is replace it. If it had 4 valves it wouldn't be hard to find and and would be an easier rebuild. All things considered, including the financial hit of replacing the engine, cruising is the center point of our retirement and we want to do our best to make sure that it is not complicated by annoying breakdowns and complications. We need the confidence in our boat that she can take us anywhere we decide to go and bring us back to home port. There are definitely cheaper ways to get her running again possibly without significant complications, but at this stage of life, time is of essence, and we want to do everything we can to ensure that it is spent well and as problem free as possible. 20180720_165221.jpeg
 
"We have checked with two Pathfinder (Audi) dealers, the only two in the US we could find

Car dealers are in business to sell cars. Period

Try Googling to find VW or Audi engine rebuilders to see what they have to offer.

AS a retirement vessel, I am sure a recapture of the price of a newer engine will be important.
You may never get the costs back, but it will make the boat sell faster.

A name brand like John Deere is fine , but the Kabota engines seem to be reliable and lighter , smaller and easier to install. Select an engine that is currently being installed in new equipment , for the easiest long term parts chances.

Fuel consumption of 1 1/2 to 2 GPH is at best 30-40HP , so a 50hp rating would be fine .

I would search for a replacement that would use the same prop, rotation and shafting .

Use the cruise RPM that you liked to enjoy and the old tranny reduction number to figure the prop shaft speed at cruise..

Use the old engine displacement at cruise RPM to figure how many cubic inches of engine were doing the work.

Use the cubic inches of the new engine to see what reduction gear would be required to do the same work.
New simple engines are mostly no more powerful per cubic inch of engine. About 3CI per HP.

As you have a displacement boat , no turbo or intercooler need add to expenses or complexity..

The ART of choosing the new engine is to match the original cruising shaft speed with the new engine at a low enough RPM to lessen engine noise ,engine wear and improved loading.

The caution is an engine that will cruise at 1500-1600 RPM but might over stress the shaft if full throttle is used .
I would check in a book like Skeens to find out how much power at full RPM your existing shaft can take, if it looks like too much power ,a throttle stop works , as does a smaller engine choice , with higher cruise RPM..

The old engine can be taken apart to have lighter pieces to haul out.

New engines are smaller externally and lighter so should be easy enough to get "down the hatch" with only minor disassembly.

If you can find an engine with the exhaust on the same side as the old , it will ease the swap.

Good Hunting,,
 
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Good post FF,
Good to not only have the engine being installed in new equipment (tractors, front end loaders ect and boats) and of course possibly boats but to have a currently functioning marineizer.

But I think the #1 thing is to get the hp right. Almost everybody overpowers and the fact that your boat came w 100hp when new is no guarantee it’s not overpowered. My Willard is one of the few boats that got the power right (33hp).

Something I don’t recall in the thread is the posibility of having a new gasket made out of copper. It would be expensive but a small job shop (machine) may do it for a lot less than a new engine.
 
We repowered our Pilgrim 40, switching from a 108 hp Westerbeke to a 75 hp Beta Marine. All the details are here: http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/d/r/drf6/Liberty_Project_1/Engine_Replacement.htm

It's a long read as other projects were interspersed with the engine swap but the final sea trial stats are near the end of the document.

It has been a few years since that was done and we are still happy. The total cost was $23k but we did the entire job ourselves so there were no labor costs.
 
drf6 said:
We repowered our Pilgrim 40, switching from a 108 hp Westerbeke to a 75 hp Beta Marine. All the details are here: http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/d/r/drf6/Liberty_Project_1/Engine_Replacement.htm

It's a long read as other projects were interspersed with the engine swap but the final sea trial stats are near the end of the document.

It has been a few years since that was done and we are still happy. The total cost was $23k but we did the entire job ourselves so there were no labor costs.
Click to expand...

Remember the cost of just the engine or was that the $23K?
 
Also...from a marine engine pro about the copper head gasket suggestion ...

"If the only issue is the blown gasket (no overheating or other damage) then that is not a bad idea. The better place to make the gasket is a water jet shop, they can use the old gasket as a model from which to program the cutter. A heat treatment shop (or a big torch and a pool of water) can anneal the finished product and the whole process should not be very costly. "
 
The engine, gearbox and electical panels were lumped together in a single quote. I believe I changed to a heavier duty gearbox which cost an additional $700 as well as the $500 for the longer wiring harness which upped the cost to the $23k.
 
drf6 said:
The engine, gearbox and electical panels were lumped together in a single quote. I believe I changed to a heavier duty gearbox which cost an additional $700 as well as the $500 for the longer wiring harness which upped the cost to the $23k.
Click to expand...

Great writeup. Interesting about having to destroy the old block in order to import the non-compliant replacement.
 
"I believe I changed to a heavier duty gearbox which cost an additional $700"


Sometimes the "heavy duty" gear box on marinizations can be used to reverse the engine output rotation , and keep the stock drive train.
 
Turner said:
Yanmar is the most affordable new engine that we have found, the 4JH80 model. To help make the decision would like an informal vote from the forum, scale of 1 - 10, 10 being the best let us know your thoughts on purchasing this motor. Be brutally honest, we respect your opinion and knowledge. Thanks.
Click to expand...


Can't speak to that motor, but my first choices in your situation would be:
1) rebuild your current engine, or barring that,
2) find a "factory remanufactured" (or similar) version of the same engine, or
3) pick a replacement that let's you use as much of the rest of the drive-train as possible, even motor mounts if possible...
4) whatever you have to do...

-Chris
 
MurrayM said:
Many moons ago, Tad Roberts (naval architect who frequents this site) recommended Beta Marine if we ever wanted to repower our 30' Sundowner Tug.

The PO of our boat put in a 100hp Yanmar 4JH2-UTE and I believe it's too big. We usually run it at 2700rpm which is not much past half throttle, and the turbo doesn't really wind up till just below 1/2 throttle. This gives us 7 to eight knots depending on currents, etc, and uses about 1.3 gph. Adding throttle past that point does add speed but the arse end squats badly, the bow starts plowing a huge wake, and I imagine fuel consumption would increase quickly. It is maybe two/three inches from the forward bulkhead in the engine room.

If we ever repower it would probably be the Beta Marine naturally aspirated 75hp or the 85hp turbo...would have to research a bit.

I'm a letter carrier and can recognize the sweet, smooth running sound of a Kubota diesel engine in a backhoe doing work in someones yard from a street away :thumb:
Click to expand...
We have come to a decision on the engine were are using to repower our Sundowner. A 50 hp fully mechanical natural aspirated Beta Marine. We were set on a 75 hp Beta until the sales rep at Diesel Marine, Joe DeMar did lots of calculations on the size of the prop and matched a 50 hp to it. He explained he would be glad to sell a 75 hp then went on to say it is a waste of money and at max would only use 50 hp. The propeller cannot be changed to a larger.one because of its close proximity to the hull. Made a lot of sense plus it is $6000 less than a 75 hp. Total cost of engine under $13000 and we can use the existing prop. We have had the motor pulled, cleaning up and painting the ER and waiting a couple of weeks for delivery. All is good and it looks like the whole repower will run $16,000. We'll have a couple of boat drinks to that! Thanks to all for the great advice that was provided by the forum. Anyone need a blown 34 y.o Pathfinder!!! Lol!!!
 
Turner said:
We have come to a decision on the engine were are using to repower our Sundowner. A 50 hp fully mechanical natural aspirated Beta Marine. We were set on a 75 hp Beta until the sales rep at Diesel Marine, Joe DeMar did lots of calculations on the size of the prop and matched a 50 hp to it. He explained he would be glad to sell a 75 hp then went on to say it is a waste of money and at max would only use 50 hp. The propeller cannot be changed to a larger.one because of its close proximity to the hull. Made a lot of sense plus it is $6000 less than a 75 hp. Total cost of engine under $13000 and we can use the existing prop. We have had the motor pulled, cleaning up and painting the ER and waiting a couple of weeks for delivery. All is good and it looks like the whole repower will run $16,000. We'll have a couple of boat drinks to that! Thanks to all for the great advice that was provided by the forum. Anyone need a blown 34 y.o Pathfinder!!! Lol!!!
Click to expand...

Glad Joe worked out. Please let him know that Carl Martin in Florida is still planning on getting the 35. Hope to get it done this fall.
 
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