Another Failed Survey

Just got back from surveying the Heritage Nova 42 we had a contract on. At least I think it was a Heritage Nova 42. In the midst of the inspection we found a manufacturers plate that said Marine Trades International. So, maybe it's a Marine Trader under a different name. Who knows. Anyway, we got about two hours into the survey before I called it off. At least this boat made it a half hour longer then the last one. The boat had the typical issues with window bedding and small areas of delamination. A small amount of interior wood around the windows was rotten. All stuff I was willing to tackle.

I based the offer on "as is, where is" and wouldn't nickel and dime him to death with survey items. With the exception of major items that may arise. Well, they arose. First was the port engine ( Lehman 135 with 1200 hrs), had a pretty good knock around number six cylinder. Mechanic couldn't determine if it was a rod bearing or wrist pin bearing. No way to know unless disassembled. It was pretty bad in that we decided not to do a sea trial. No wanted to take the risk. Second was on the starboard side the tabbing that holds the floor to the side of the hull was broken with about a 1/4 inch gap. This break was about six foot long. Other various tabs were faulty as well. Third was the mount that held the starboard rudder post was so badly corroded the surveyor said the whole thing had to be replaced.


And then two of the Marine Air, air conditioning units failed to work. The compressors were blazing hot. Am I expecting to much from a $60,000 boat? Is this common to have these kinds of major issues in that price range?


The deal is not dead as I need to get estimates and give them a new number. What's ball park for rebuilding a Lehman 135? Can you just replace the compressor on a Marine Air unit. Have searched for the part but no luck. Anyway, just a little disappointed because the boat really was clean with low hour engines and it's getting a little pricey with surveyors and mechanics on two failed surveys. I guess the bright side is it was money well spent...

$60,000 was probably too much to start with, assuming a boat with only cosmetic and minor problems. The ones you describe could probably add up to more than half of that.

I woudn't pay $25,000 for a boat with one trashed engine, major tabbing failures, stern gear a wreck and two A/Cs toast.

David

I have a friend with whom I went and did a presurvey examination of a mid 80's Jefferson sun deck trawler. He recently missed a very good condition Jefferson that was listed in the mid $70K. The one we looked at had Cummins that appeared to be ok, newer AC units that needed some attention, heads that didn't work, canvas enclosure that needed to be replaced, and window leaks with some rotten wood below.

He asked my opinion on a price. $20k.

IMO, you need to determine the market value of a turnkey squared away boat of the same make and model. Then start subtracting costs for repairing. Your time has value. If you're going to repair the windows and wood rot underneath, that needs to be subtracted off the value in the same way as the engine repair.

It's important to understand that some boats aren't worth repairing because of the repair cost and absolute value of the squared away value of the boat. This isn't your problem, it's the owners problem. I don't know the particular value of the boat you're lookig at. IMO, with engine, AC, window, and other problems, I don't see how you restore this boat for much less than best market value. If you want to take on the project, offer $10K and count your blessings when he says no.

Ted

The only advice I can offer is to try to do a better preliminary inspection before going to agreement of sale. I took over 150 pics of Irish Lady and 3 separate visits before going to survey and I still missed stuff. I also made a list of things to discuss with the surveyor so I wouldn’t forget. The surveyor will miss some small stuff, can you live with fixing them?

I'd walk away from the Marine Trader/whatever. Too many issues, and some structural. With bulkhead tabs broken, who knows what else in that hull has been over stressed. Too many other boats out there to take on a boat that might not float for a year or more by the time you get it ready.

I feel your pain regarding failed surveys. I surveyed three boats in 2007 before I found one I could live with. On the flip side, the one I'm in now passed survey with only cosmetic issues. Good thing, that survey cost me over $2300 with hull and engine surveys.

I have to agree with HighWire, you need to learn from this so that next time you can do a thorough inspection yourself before taking this to a surveyor. I checked every light, pump, ac unit, electronic instrument etc before my survey and the survey as a result didn't tell me too much I didn't already know. I needed it regardless for insurance. This will save a lot of time, money and frustration. One of our members, BoatPoker, has it on his site how to do a self survey and may be worth a read for you.

Marine Survey 101, pre-survey inspection

Be real cautious that someone is trying to pass a Marine Trader off as a Heritage. I know they look similar, but there is a big difference. Check the hull identification number on the transom. There is a code there that will tell you who built the boat. A list of manufacturers is here: Manufacturers Identification If there is nothing on the transom, run, don't walk away.

Rossland said:

Be real cautious that someone is trying to pass a Marine Trader off as a Heritage. I know they look similar, but there is a big difference. Check the hull identification number on the transom. There is a code there that will tell you who built the boat. A list of manufacturers is here: Manufacturers Identification If there is nothing on the transom, run, don't walk away.

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Just checked the hull number. It starts with ETY. Marine Trading for sure. So how did this boat come to be called a Heritage East Nova? Did Marine Trading make this boat? If not, who did. And what's the big difference? This has taken a weird turn for sure....

Sidclark said:

Just checked the hull number. It starts with ETY. Marine Trading for sure. So how did this boat come to be called a Heritage East Nova? Did Marine Trading make this boat? If not, who did. And what's the big difference? This has taken a weird turn for sure....

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I am happy that you identified the correct maker of the boat. How did it get to be called a Heritage? I am sure that you can figure it out. Our previous boat was a Heritage East, good quality boats with an excellent reputation, and priced to match.

I suggest that you find a buyers broker to help you steer clear of the junk. The broker won't cost you anything. They get paid by splitting the commission with the sellers broker.

From what I have read, Marine Traders were built by many companies but imported under the Marine Trader name.

Rossland said:

I suggest that you find a buyers broker to help you steer clear of the junk. The broker won't cost you anything. They get paid by splitting the commission with the sellers broker.

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This is a good idea but might be a little hard to find one willing to do much work in the $60K price range.

Did the anchor work?

Seriously, as someone who dropped thousands on a survey of a 52 footer and then ate the cost and walked, I would not go forward.

First, boats are not like houses where it is location, location, location. You get to move them to where you want them. Another boat will come along.
A surveyor does not find everything. The fact that this boat was so neglected tells me there are potentially a ton of other things waiting for you.

I know it is tough to start all over again, but my recommendation is to do just that.

When I was looking for my current boat I had a buyers broker and his knowledge was invaluable.

The survey was invaluable. It served it's purpose. Now, listen to what it told you and run far away. If you picked up on that many significant issues in 2 1/2 hours, only imagine had you actually been able to do a sea trial and completed the survey.

Not Mine and no affiliation. Saw a 40 Heritage Nova on YW in Knoxville, TN. Pics shows lives undercover in freshwater. $44K.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/19...91692/Knoxville/TN/United-States#.W2IJnXtKhsY

What are you expecting in a 30+ year old boat in the 40+ foot range for 60K? I completely agree that you should walk away from this sale and that is exactly why you spend money on when you have a survey.

While I don't expect delaminated tabbing, it's going to be hard to find a 30+-year-old boat that doesn't have a few soft spots, or that won't need a major refit in regards to a number of mechanical systems.

I would almost be walking into these expecting to either replace or overhaul engines and generator.

We bought our at the time almost 30 year old boat with the expectation that there will be a lot of major and minor issues. Unless you don’t want to have issues then look at newer boats and get a much larger budget. You will spend the money at purchase or over the next several years either way. I enjoy working on boats so I am not looking for a boat without projects. But not much scares me away from a boat that meets my needs (desires). But having said that broken tabbing may indicate a problem that I would not want to undertake. I would worry about how the tabbing got broken. Anyway good luck with your search.

Comodave said:

... Unless you don’t want to have issues then look at newer boats and get a much larger budget. ...

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There's a video on YouTube by a new Azimut owner (a pretty big one). He says it took 2 years to get all the new boat issues sorted out. Buying a new boat is not a guarantee of anything.

ssobol said:

There's a video on YouTube by a new Azimut owner (a pretty big one). He says it took 2 years to get all the new boat issues sorted out. Buying a new boat is not a guarantee of anything.

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Let's keep in mind that is Azimut. Hardly typical of the market. Azimut US (As distinguished from their European operation) is known for quality issues and horrific warranty service provided by Marine Max.

We've purchased new boats in excellent shape when delivered. We always get a survey on a new boat though.

ssobol said:

There's a video on YouTube by a new Azimut owner (a pretty big one). He says it took 2 years to get all the new boat issues sorted out. Buying a new boat is not a guarantee of anything.

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I did not say a new boat, I said a newer boat. Sometimes new boats have quite a few issues but a boat a few years old has had the issues worked out.

BandB said:

We've purchased new boats in excellent shape when delivered. We always get a survey on a new boat though.

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I recall that from a thread a couple years ago. I think that is a great idea. The more expensive and/or complex the boat, likely the more important it becomes.

I know it would be tough for me to do. My personality is such that I would be hard pressed to wait for a pre-delivery survey. I’m impatient. I also would have a difficult time telling a builder that I’ve been happily working with for 6-12 months that I was going to have an independent surveyor check their work. However, I think doing so would be a very wise decision as small problems can take a while to be resolved and I don’t have the experience or expertise to catch as many deficiencies as a professional surveyor.

dhays said:

I recall that from a thread a couple years ago. I think that is a great idea. The more expensive and/or complex the boat, likely the more important it becomes.

I know it would be tough for me to do. My personality is such that I would be hard pressed to wait for a pre-delivery survey. I’m impatient. I also would have a difficult time telling a builder that I’ve been happily working with for 6-12 months that I was going to have an independent surveyor check their work. However, I think doing so would be a very wise decision as small problems can take a while to be resolved and I don’t have the experience or expertise to catch as many deficiencies as a professional surveyor.

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For non-production boats being built, we actually had the surveyor involved from the beginning and checking on things once a week. The builder had no problem with it and actually complimented him. Boat was subject to Class approval and he was a survey for Class.

On production or semi-production, we had only minor things found and they were all corrected immediately. Builders like to say, "It's minor. Just bring it back anytime." Our comment was "It's minor. Just fix it now and then you'll get the final payment and we'll take delivery." Amazing how quickly they move then.

Now, if you've chosen the wrong builder, none of this helps. You're still out the majority of the money, they refuse. So you either accept as is and fix at your own expense or you have to litigate to recover the money you've spent. There is no contract, no survey, no sea trial, nothing that will protect you against the wrong builder.

Azimut was the topic here. Well, those I've spoken to in Europe speak highly of their quality and service. However, in the US it's not the same. Yes, they have satisfied customers, but many not happy and the deal is that Azimut's entire US warranty program is all through Marine Max and they make the decisions so if there is a dispute over service, there's nowhere to go. It's under a contract and the incentive is for Marine Max not to spend money. Typically you have customer, dealer or yard, and manufacturer. Look at how many Beneteau Swift Trawler customers have had issues addressed and accommodated by the builder. Imagine if the dealer, some of whom haven't been very good, was making the final decision.

We see builders here who get praised by new boat buyers all the time. Good builders still may make mistakes but they then stand behind them.

IronZebra said:

Not Mine and no affiliation. Saw a 40 Heritage Nova on YW in Knoxville, TN. Pics shows lives undercover in freshwater. $44K.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/19...91692/Knoxville/TN/United-States#.W2IJnXtKhsY

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I saw that one, but figured the only way to get it out of Knoxville would be by truck. Please correct me if I'm wrong..

Sidclark said:

I saw that one, but figured the only way to get it out of Knoxville would be by truck. Please correct me if I'm wrong..

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No, just run it down the TN River and out to anywhere in the world.

Now you might prefer truck, but water is a reasonable option.

Plus it would be a great delivery trip.

Bought my boat new. Nor surprised to spend several thousand dollars to get it "right." Interesting that the boat's builder asked my local boatyard what improvements I had made.

"We always get a survey on a new boat though."


Always an excellent idea.

Rossland said:

I am happy that you identified the correct maker of the boat. How did it get to be called a Heritage? I am sure that you can figure it out. Our previous boat was a Heritage East, good quality boats with an excellent reputation, and priced to match.

I suggest that you find a buyers broker to help you steer clear of the junk. The broker won't cost you anything. They get paid by splitting the commission with the sellers broker.

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I second getting a "buyer's broker" involved. The first one that I contacted basically told me to "get back to him when I decided what I wanted." I dropped him like hot lead. I had a good idea the direction we needed to go, but since it was all new to my wife, I contacted a female broker that could better identify with my wife's questions and concerns. She was incredible! Her services costed us nothing, and she saved us literally thousands of dollars through negotiating a generous "Survey Allowance" based on the reports of the surveyor of the engine, transmission, and generator, and the surveyor that went over the boat from bow to stern. The previous owner and I have become friends, and he shared with me that his broker "hated me." Thank goodness the previous owner was a good and honorable man.

All that being said, even after an extremely thorough survey and sea trial, the shaft of the turbo broke on the second day of bringing the boat home. After almost two years of ownership and nearly 500 new hours on the main motor and generator, I can only say the "buyer's broker" was of GREAT service to us!

For the record, the previous owner hired the same engine surveyor we used to survey the engines of the "new to him" boat he bought!

IronZebra said:

Not Mine and no affiliation. Saw a 40 Heritage Nova on YW in Knoxville, TN. Pics shows lives undercover in freshwater. $44K.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/19...91692/Knoxville/TN/United-States#.W2IJnXtKhsY

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Nice boat, but it has had some significant alterations to both cabins re bed locations.

CruisingTheICW said:

I second getting a "buyer's broker" involved.
...
For the record, the previous owner hired the same engine surveyor we used to survey the engines of the "new to him" boat he bought!

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+1 on having an aggressive buyer's broker on your side. Likewise paying to have a thorough engine survey done (in addition to a regular 'boat' survey). Helps a lot to have someone that knows particular models of engines and their weak points. And don't forget to have oil samples sent out for review.

What helped the most with ours was that our service coordinator already handled one exactly like it. He knew where to look for what's been done and what needing doing next. We went to the boat first and took a day's time to thoroughly look through it BEFORE committing to a sea trial and surveys. That came a few weeks later. Since we'd gone over that boat already we knew what to look for in the surveyor's results (and he'd found all of them and a few more).

As for the expense of this sort of thing, you're either paying it up front and going into it with eyes open (and wallet prepared) or flying blind and risking seriously expensive surprises.