Wakemakers

stubones99 said:

Make sure there are not two boats passing you cut over into his old path...

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what is behind me isnt really my concern and no blah blah about rules of the road and holding course and speed....they dont apply when 3 boats are in the mix, you revert to avting like a prudent seaman.

BandB said:

Every boat can create problems for other boats and ultimately it's consideration for your fellow boater.

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Hahaha. Almost every boat.

That Marlow though, gosh that's awful. And dangerous.
Some boats roll like crazy. I was cruising in tandem with another boat. Wakes that made him roll, admittedly exacerbated because of his fly bridge, were just an up and down for me. With all the batteries in my bilge Seaweed is far more stable than she used to be. That stability has cost me a knot.

I am already where I want to be so speed is not an issue.

As for being underway on a weekend or over holidays, no! There are too many folks who only have those two days to boat. They are in a hurry. For me the crowded channels are not the definition of pleasure.

Because boats react differently to the same wake, it behoves all captains to make theirs as unobtrusive as possible.

Radio communication can help though hearing the VHF is harder for me. I am looking into those rubber sound shields but in the meantime I do the best I can. Boats should have easy to read names too. That would help.

I had to run down to the office this morning to see an emergency patient. On the way I heard an interesting interview on the radio. A psychologist was being interviewed on a book he had written. Of interest was the old idea that “Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” According to this academic, research has proved out that claim.

Power can come in many forms. Economic power is a significant one. Lots of research has found that drivers of expensive cars are less inclined to follow traffic laws. Specifically, they have identified that drivers of luxury cars are MUCH less likely to stop for pedestrians at marked cross-walks (as required by law) compared to drivers of cheap cars. The same holds true for cars stopping at stop signs. Luxury car drivers are MUCH less likely to come to a full stop than drivers of cheap cars.

Less we think this is a political issue, the research also finds that drivers of Priuses are just as bad as drivers of Audi’s or BMWs.

I wonder if the same type of entitled behavior translates to the water?

dhays said:

I had to run down to the office this morning to see an emergency patient. On the way I heard an interesting interview on the radio. A psychologist was being interviewed on a book he had written. Of interest was the old idea that “Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” According to this academic, research has proved out that claim.

Power can come in many forms. Economic power is a significant one. Lots of research has found that drivers of expensive cars are less inclined to follow traffic laws. Specifically, they have identified that drivers of luxury cars are MUCH less likely to stop for pedestrians at marked cross-walks (as required by law) compared to drivers of cheap cars. The same holds true for cars stopping at stop signs. Luxury car drivers are MUCH less likely to come to a full stop than drivers of cheap cars.

Less we think this is a political issue, the research also finds that drivers of Priuses are just as bad as drivers of Audi’s or BMWs.

I wonder if the same type of entitled behavior translates to the water?

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Real good conjecture!

I think it's often a question of time.

One of my best friends (he just passed unfortunately) was the captain on a large yacht for a guy who was a billionaire at one time. Over and over again, the owner would have him and the other crew take the yacht down to meet him in Key West or the Bahamas, or some other destination; a leisurely cruise that the captain and crew would enjoy immensely.

The owner would then Lear Jet in to Key West or the Bahamas, and there would follow a frantic two days, where they went everywhere wide open, trying to cram as much in as they could for the owner who only had those two days. Then they would fly up to the dock, he would jump out and run to take a taxi to the airport, and then blast off in his jet to return to the office.

Then the crew would have another leisurely and fun slow cruise back home.

My friend, David, told me finally figured out that rich guys think that the most unfair thing in the world is that while they may have millions more in dollars, they have no more time, than a bum on the street. A lot of the crazy stuff they do, like waking you, for no rational reason, is them trying to squeeze that 25th hour out of a day.

They can pay for the fuel. They can pay for the damage they cause, if they get caught and called on it. But, what they desperately need, and don't have, is more time.

And, they mistakenly think, that going fast in their boats, gives them that extra time that they crave so much.

dhays said:

I had to run down to the office this morning to see an emergency patient. On the way I heard an interesting interview on the radio. A psychologist was being interviewed on a book he had written. Of interest was the old idea that “Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” According to this academic, research has proved out that claim.

Power can come in many forms. Economic power is a significant one. Lots of research has found that drivers of expensive cars are less inclined to follow traffic laws. Specifically, they have identified that drivers of luxury cars are MUCH less likely to stop for pedestrians at marked cross-walks (as required by law) compared to drivers of cheap cars. The same holds true for cars stopping at stop signs. Luxury car drivers are MUCH less likely to come to a full stop than drivers of cheap cars.

Less we think this is a political issue, the research also finds that drivers of Priuses are just as bad as drivers of Audi’s or BMWs.

I wonder if the same type of entitled behavior translates to the water?

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Wifey B: I think there's definitely some truth to that hypothesis, but like most generalizations it's not universal. I think if you were researching you'd go further into one's history, always had power vs acquired. Certainly we know some people feel entitled. We see it in politicians, athletes, and entertainers. Were they always narcissists or is it acquired narcissism. Is it an extension of "the love of money is the root of all evil?" Simple greed and then gives rise to entitlement?

The problem with such assumptions of fact is that then some apply them to everyone in that group. There are plenty of respectful people in all groups and, unfortunately, plenty of jerks in all groups. The real issue is when anyone loses caring and respect for others. If that happens as one gains power, then it's very bad.

I think stopping at stop signs is a bit of a bad example. The deterrent there is the price of a traffic ticket. That price is less significant to someone with money. I do know towns though where all the "soccer moms" have developed quite a reputation with their driving and perhaps entitlement.

I don't have any idea about crosswalks as generally the ones I'm familiar with tie to lights and times to cross or not.

Now back to wakemakers, I've seen them in all types of boats from the cheapest, junkiest, small fishing boats to the largest megayachts. I think trying to pin it on any specific group of boaters is wrong beyond the obvious and that is that sailboats may cause a lot of problems but wakes aren't one of them and boats that can't exceed displacement speed aren't likely to cause huge wakes. None of that is price or value of boat, but simply physical capability. I've been waked bad by dinghies, by RIB's. Put a 25 hp motor on a 10' RIB and put 3 people in the boat and watch them plow and wake. Put a small electric motor on it and they won't wake, simply they aren't capable. I've never been waked by a kayak, but sure had one in the Erie Canal just decide to come out of a side cove and cross right as we approached and we had to pull back to neutral, then hit reverse to avoid either hitting or waking the kayak.

It's really simple. Three factors are capability, knowledge of what one is doing, and respect for others.

BandB said:

Wifey B: I think there's definitely some truth to that hypothesis, but like most generalizations it's not universal.

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I didn’t mean to imply that it was universal and I certainly wasn’t trying to cast aspersions towards anyone here on TF.

It isn’t universal of course and the research quoted on the cross-walk study (marked but uncontrolled pedestrian crosswalk where law required cars to stop for pedestrians) it was found that 100% of the drivers in “cheap” cars stopped for the pedestrian. Only 40% of the drivers of “luxury” cars stopped.

Yes, this shows that those that drive expensive cars were less likely to be considerate of the pedestrians in this situation than those that drove cheap cars. However, it also shows that 60% of the drivers of expensive cars were just as considerate as those that drove cheap cars. I have every confidence, for example, that you are a very considerate driver in your Porsche.

Frank Herbert, the author of Dune, had a character in his books say this, “Power doesn’t corrupt, power attracts the corruptible”. I have always felt that this is likely more accurate, although I would phrase it as “the corruptible are attracted to power”

dhays said:

I didn’t mean to imply that it was universal and I certainly wasn’t trying to cast aspersions towards anyone here on TF.

It isn’t universal of course and the research quoted on the cross-walk study (marked but uncontrolled pedestrian crosswalk where law required cars to stop for pedestrians) it was found that 100% of the drivers in “cheap” cars stopped for the pedestrian. Only 40% of the drivers of “luxury” cars stopped.

Yes, this shows that those that drive expensive cars were less likely to be considerate of the pedestrians in this situation than those that drove cheap cars. However, it also shows that 60% of the drivers of expensive cars were just as considerate as those that drove cheap cars. I have every confidence, for example, that you are a very considerate driver in your Porsche.

Frank Herbert, the author of Dune, had a character in his books say this, “Power doesn’t corrupt, power attracts the corruptible”. I have always felt that this is likely more accurate, although I would phrase it as “the corruptible are attracted to power”

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Wifey B: I wasn't implying you were implying it was universal although many will hear it that way. I can't believe 100% of any group did right (must have been small sample), but then I'm not familiar with such crosswalks. It would be interesting to monitor school zones.

I'm considerate and not far over speed limits as much as I'd love to open it up and see how fast it will really go. I've never even had it to half speed.

I'm good at stop signs either because I don't want tickets or I was trained and I'm like a puppy not a cat. Puppies want to obey and do right, cats know right from wrong but also (like kids) know they have a choice and might just choose to be bad. We bought Beth her first doggy ever, at 60 years old, a couple of years ago and it's a Bichon Frise. Princess is so cute that she stops at the mat just outside the door to either house before entering, waiting for her paws to be checked and/or wiped. Door wide open and she won't enter until paws checked. Better than any of us as we go in with wet paws occasionally.

We know also some obtain their power by being corrupt and unfortunately that is often used to try to stereotype others. I hate when I hear dispersion's cast on groups of people like lawyers or even politicians or even used car salesmen. Here we see it unfairly done on brokers.

It's an interesting study and would be interesting on broader subjects. Unfortunately, does nothing to make the offenders straighten up.

dhays said:

I didn’t mean to imply that it was universal and I certainly wasn’t trying to cast aspersions towards anyone here on TF.

It isn’t universal of course and the research quoted on the cross-walk study (marked but uncontrolled pedestrian crosswalk where law required cars to stop for pedestrians) it was found that 100% of the drivers in “cheap” cars stopped for the pedestrian. Only 40% of the drivers of “luxury” cars stopped.

Yes, this shows that those that drive expensive cars were less likely to be considerate of the pedestrians in this situation than those that drove cheap cars. However, it also shows that 60% of the drivers of expensive cars were just as considerate as those that drove cheap cars. I have every confidence, for example, that you are a very considerate driver in your Porsche.

Frank Herbert, the author of Dune, had a character in his books say this, “Power doesn’t corrupt, power attracts the corruptible”. I have always felt that this is likely more accurate, although I would phrase it as “the corruptible are attracted to power”

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It's an interesting thing, research.
I could argue your results show, that because more expensive vehicles are likely driven by older people, and older people have poorer vision, hearing, flexibility and attention span that it's older people that are the crux of the problem.
Speaking only for myself, of course!

leeman said:

It's an interesting thing, research.
I could argue your results show, that because more expensive vehicles are likely driven by older people, and older people have poorer vision, hearing, flexibility and attention span that it's older people that are the crux of the problem.
Speaking only for myself, of course!

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I could ague that those who have more have more to think about may therefore tend to space out more often while thinking about other issues than issues immediately at hand.

All in all I believe it comes down to: "The Nature of the Beast" i.e. tending to be considerate or not. As well as needing to feel more special than others - or not!

Group9 said:

...

My friend, David, told me finally figured out that rich guys think that the most unfair thing in the world is that while they may have millions more in dollars, they have no more time, than a bum on the street. A lot of the crazy stuff they do, like waking you, for no rational reason, is them trying to squeeze that 25th hour out of a day. ...

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I have a high preference for traveling westward where days can be 25 hours long versus eastward for 23 hours.

Talk about thread drift! And I've read every word of it. I need to go wash the boat or something.

As a future cruiser (4-5 years from now), with no boating experience beyond a 17' ski boat and kayaks, this thread has been very educational and informative.

Thank you all.

---Libertexan

Let me guess, you were in the miserable mile near Ft. Myers and he was driving a large Sea Ray!

dhays said:

...
Less we think this is a political issue, the research also finds that drivers of Priuses are just as bad as drivers of Audi’s or BMWs.

...?

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IME Audi drivers are by far the worst.

Also, in America the fine for some traffic offense is fixed at like maybe $200 (depending on the offense). For some guy working 3 jobs just to pay the bills, $200 is a significant deterrent. To the guy with the Lear Jet, it is probably less than pocket change. If he gets caught, "So what?".

There needs to be a penalty system that is based on your income like they have in some countries in Europe. One guy in Finland got fined $58,000 for going 64 in a 50 mph zone. Another guy was fined $103,000 for going 45 in a 30 mph zone (all numbers converted to US units). A system like that in the US might make some of the rich a**hole* on the road think a bit more about the things they do.

ssobol said:

IME Audi drivers are by far the worst.

Also, in America the fine for some traffic offense is fixed at like maybe $200 (depending on the offense). For some guy working 3 jobs just to pay the bills, $200 is a significant deterrent. To the guy with the Lear Jet, it is probably less than pocket change. If he gets caught, "So what?".

There needs to be a penalty system that is based on your income like they have in some countries in Europe. One guy in Finland got fined $58,000 for going 64 in a 50 mph zone. Another guy was fined $103,000 for going 45 in a 30 mph zone (all numbers converted to US units). A system like that in the US might make some of the rich a**hole* on the road think a bit more about the things they do.

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America is a big place and there are vast differences form city to city, state to state.

However, it is clear that many fines, even for parking violations, have taking the form of regressive taxes. And I do find it very sad to see people have to pay $450 because they parked their car in the wrong place and for many, that may be half a month's pay.

Wxx3 said:

America is a big place and there are vast differences form city to city, state to state.

However, it is clear that many fines, even for parking violations, have taking the form of regressive taxes. And I do find it very sad to see people have to pay $450 because they parked their car in the wrong place and for many, that may be half a month's pay.

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And people who spend time in jail because they can't afford a bond while others who are under arrest for far worse crimes bond out and lead an easy life.

You mention tickets, but many of those who parked their cars in the wrong place, got them towed and were never able to get them back over a couple hundred dollars that grows every day.

I just logged in to this thread about wakers and would appreciate some advice. I try to be a considerate boater but sometimes find myself conflicted about the right thing to do. This last weekend I was returning from a SF Bay to Stockton cruise. The trip from Stockton CA to Sausalito is about 90 miles down the San Joaquin river. I know that I am responsible for my wake, and don't want to cause discomfort or injury to others. However, last weekend I found fishermen in flat bottom "bass boats" about every quarter mile. I cruise at about 9 knots and at that speed create a wake that will rock small boats. But if I reduce speed to idle for every fisherman in the deep water channel it will extend my trip to maybe 11 hours instead of 8 hours. I found myself thinking that if the fishermen didn't want to be rocked maybe they should be in one of the numerous side sloughs rather than the main channel,but clearly this thinking may be arrogant. I would appreciate your insight as to the proper course of action: does one try to slow for every boat, or is it OK to expect others to accept moderate wave conditions from vessels in transit? I do want to do the right thing. Appreciate any advice/suggestions.

Along the East Coast, fishing in the main channels will get you rocked, but not hurt or flipped or swamped by the vast majority of boaters.

But that is the norm here, cant say what it is there..... I am sure you will get some local feedback. But I suspect it is pretty much the same alk over eith thd exception of how strict no wake areas are.

Only you as the captain can judge each pass as sometines a knot slower or acfew more yards distant is all it takes to make the small boater go from a good rocking to a violent event.

RickyD said:

Let me see if I can get myself in trouble here. I was a sail boater for 20+ years and since 2007, a semi-displacement trawler owner. Generally, let me repeat, generally I find sail boaters more cognizant than power boaters here on the west coast. I think the reason is that more power boat owners think they are like cars and just buy one, hope in, turn the key and go. Sail boat owners tend to be a bit more serious with the propulsion issues they need to deal with. Ok, I know there are many many great power boat owners so don't hit me too hard. I'm just trying out a theory here.

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I agree. Here in South Florida we always say that they have more money than brains when it comes to operating their vessel!

Once a very long time ago a wise man once told me that a power boater gets on his boat to go somewhere...whereas a sailor gets on his boat and he is there! That is the problem. That difference...some are in a hurry to get somewhere and others are already there and in no particular hurry!

But ignorance abounds in both camps...

Dawdler said:

I would appreciate your insight as to the proper course of action: does one try to slow for every boat, or is it OK to expect others to accept moderate wave conditions from vessels in transit? I do want to do the right thing. Appreciate any advice/suggestions.

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I try to provide reasonable waves for boats along the way, but that does not mean no waves. I'll sweep as wide as I can and find decent speeds, but, unless in a no wake zone, I'm not going to provide no wake to boats hanging out in the channel.

I am very focused in narrow water (such as the ICW) on meeting/passing boats to not create a "wake" related event for the other boat.


My frustration is the lack of response when calling out on the radio to discuss passing. My experience is similar with both Sail and Power boats. Someone is happy motoring along at 6-7 knots and just ignore the other traffic.

"Someone is happy motoring along at 6-7 knots and just ignore the other traffic."


That is how it should be ., if the passing boat is skilled there is no need for any radio chatter.

Thanks psneeld, bandb, and others. appreciate the comments

Local customs can be valuable knowledge... Ask and observe what the vast majority OK f local do if you want to blend in.

ssobol said:

IME Audi drivers are by far the worst.

Also, in America the fine for some traffic offense is fixed at like maybe $200 (depending on the offense). For some guy working 3 jobs just to pay the bills, $200 is a significant deterrent. To the guy with the Lear Jet, it is probably less than pocket change. If he gets caught, "So what?".

There needs to be a penalty system that is based on your income like they have in some countries in Europe. One guy in Finland got fined $58,000 for going 64 in a 50 mph zone. Another guy was fined $103,000 for going 45 in a 30 mph zone (all numbers converted to US units). A system like that in the US might make some of the rich a**hole* on the road think a bit more about the things they do.

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The freeways are now pretty much unregulated. In the last 6 months, 2 separate trips I drove from Ft Pierce Fl to Fort Worth, Tx and Ft Pierce to Booth Bay, ME. Combined I saw perhaps 5 Hwy Patrol working traffic. WAZE has pulled their teeth and I think they have given up. I wish they would ticket the left lane squatters. If I pass you on the right, you are in the wrong lane! I watch my mirror and move over. I never throw a wake, nor do the drivers faster than I. So you want to go 90? Strike a trot, and I will try to accommodate.

BandB said:

I try to provide reasonable waves for boats along the way, but that does not mean no waves. I'll sweep as wide as I can and find decent speeds, but, unless in a no wake zone, I'm not going to provide no wake to boats hanging out in the channel.

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Exactly!

Mule said:

The freeways are now pretty much unregulated. In the last 6 months, 2 separate trips I drove from Ft Pierce Fl to Fort Worth, Tx and Ft Pierce to Booth Bay, ME. Combined I saw perhaps 5 Hwy Patrol working traffic. WAZE has pulled their teeth and I think they have given up. I wish they would ticket the left lane squatters. If I pass you on the right, you are in the wrong lane! I watch my mirror and move over. I never throw a wake, nor do the drivers faster than I. So you want to go 90? Strike a trot, and I will try to accommodate.

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Probably varies from place to place. Recent trip back to MD from IN... Ohio had a highway patrol car at about every third ramp.

I'd guess 90% of the time you see a left-lane squatter, probably going slower than the speed limit, they'll have MD plates.

I have a theory about why, actually. Around this area, ramps are short and frequent. Trying to move back to the right lane after being in the left... just means you'll have to move back to the left again in about 20 feet.

Different from other places, where ramps are a mile-and-a-half long and only happen once every 10 miles or so.

Driving in Germany when we lived there was much easier than here in the Mid-Atlantic area; everyone a) knew the rules, and b) followed the rules. More like the American midwest and west (omitting maybe the left coast; no experience there). Back to that recent trip, it was very common for drivers to pass correctly on the left and then return to the right. Except for most MD drivers, of course.

Slightly back in the direction of the topic, only some of the big trucks made much of a wake.

-Chris