Insurance requires a survey, but I don’t want one...

We’ve had two different types of surveys on Hobo; pre-purchase and valuation. The pre-purchase was very detailed and included a seperate mechanical survey. Since then the only surveys have been for valuation and asked for by the insurance company. These were done to verify the value and insurability of Hobo. Anything glaring was flagged but no where near the detail like the pre-purchase. The valuation survey also was cheaper.

If you do a search on how costly it is to do oil spill remediation and /or salvage you wouldn’t balk about a survey. A couple hundred dollars is a cheap part of being covered against a million in liability.

cappy208 said:

If you do a search on how costly it is to do oil spill remediation and /or salvage you wouldn’t balk about a survey. A couple hundred dollars is a cheap part of being covered against a million in liability.

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A survey does not protect me from a oil spill.

Not sure if the spill liability was directed at "no survey, no insurance"...

And even then, my understanding is policy wording could be such to not cover you in the event of either policy excetions for misrepresentations or gross negligence ( much harder to prove).

We were required to do a re-survey by our insurance company (Ace) after they had insured the boat for 5 years. It was pretty easy because they sent a disposable camera and specific requests for photos of certain areas on the boat. The original survey had been completed when we purchased the boat. Perhaps you could request a similar approach from BoatUS though I am not optimistic.

Chrisjs said:

We were required to do a re-survey by our insurance company (Ace) after they had insured the boat for 5 years. It was pretty easy because they sent a disposable camera and specific requests for photos of certain areas on the boat. The original survey had been completed when we purchased the boat. Perhaps you could request a similar approach from BoatUS though I am not optimistic.

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This makes sense to me. I could provide the survey done a couple of years ago along with whatever current pictures they need. I’ll see what they say.

You can request an insurance survey, which is less expensive and less intrusive than a full pre-purchase survey. I don't know the details but that can be worked out between you, the surveyor and ins co.

Steve91T said:

This makes sense to me. I could provide the survey done a couple of years ago along with whatever current pictures they need. I’ll see what they say.

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As I mentioned in post #7 that's all my ins. company wanted this year....4 page self survey with about 20 pictures. The items covered are safety and value related items that are usually in an insurance survey but not all the things on a 20 or more page pre-purchase survey

BUT...that's not for the original insurance agreement so that could be a catch.

They also wanted proof of engine rebuild/upgrades, annual inspections on equipment, mechanic work, etc..... to keep those parts insured or even the whole boat.

But they were reasonable...when I asked about the fixed fire extinguisher system questions, they backed off due to the age and construction of the boat....that alone would have cost more than all my other compliance issues. So some ins. companies are reasonable.

CaptTom said:

I agree the insurance company will want the survey, no other option.

Where I differ is the value of the survey. So the surveyor comes up with a list of little non-safety issues like the water heaters don't work or (in my case) the stupid useless little windshield wiper on the lower helm (which I've never used) didn't work.

Then you have to fix them all BEFORE they'll issue the policy. Why? They don't think I can get the boat home safely without a water heater or a tiny wiper on a window that's covered anyway?

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That may depend on the insurance company.


When my current boat boat was surveyed for purchase the surveyor flagged a number of items. A number of these were safety related. The starboard nav light was non-functional, there was evidence of a propane leak for the stove, the fuel sight glasses had a valve only on the bottom, the ground wire for the inverter/charger was lighter than current recommendations, to name a few.


The insurance company did allow me to move the boat from Port Ludlow to Gig Harbor provided that it was done during daylight hours in clear visibility and that the stove was used. Once in my home port, I was not insured other than at the dock until I had the starboard nav light and the propane leak addressed. They didn't care about anything else. So in my experience, I have not had to fix every deficiency identified on this boat nor my last one before the insurance company would provide coverage.



This survey was given to the insurance company as well as the lender. The insurance company allowed me to move the boat to its new home but no other use would be allowed until two of the items on the survey were taken care of.

Steve91T said:

A survey does not protect me from a oil spill.

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It may well, if you're the one doing the spilling. Heavy oil/fuel leaking and automatic bilge pumps are often the cause.

dhays said:

This survey was given to the insurance company as well as the lender. The insurance company allowed me to move the boat to its new home but no other use would be allowed until two of the items on the survey were taken care of.

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A case in which the insurer's interests and your interests really were the same and they were protecting themselves, but in the process, protecting you. Without the survey and insurer, you might have put yourself in peril just with a safety issue you were completely unaware of.

The vast majority of the time, insurers are reasonable in what they insist on being fixed.

I am really disappointed on how inflexible insurance companies are on this subject. My policy expired and I want to change insurer because they were not licensed in the US. So I went shopping in the good old USA. Boat US/Geico agreed to insure me but their premium was too high so I elected to just insure for liability only and the premium went down to a very reasonable $300.00. I accepted but they wanted a survey less than 2 years old. This was a new/old boat for me and my purchase survey was 2 years and 5 months old. Not good enough for them. A new survey would mean a haul out and probably over $1,000 in expense, 3 times their premium. I asked them to reconsider, especially since it was only liability insurance I was applying for but they refused and insist on the new survey. Rules are rules, right. Guess I won't be doing business with Boat US/Geico. Does anyone know of another insurer I can apply to?

Try Sea Insure through Sea Tow.

They used to have the same underwriters as my insurance New Hampshire, but Sea Insure didnt insure liveaboards....even though the same underwriter.

Get a surveyor license - do self survey .

nodestination said:

Get a surveyor license - do self survey .

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Lol. Best idea yet. I’ll order one from amazon.

I have never had an issue with my insurance company and deficiencies found during a survey. I simply wrote explanations of the situation with my proposed remedies. The insurance has always accepted my submissions. For example, during the last survey of my sailboat the surveyor noted significant rust in the bilge under the engine and concluded that my keel bolts needed replacement. In my response to the insurance underwriter I explained why I wasn't concerned about that issue and they accepted my explanation. I also resolved never to deal with that surveyor again.


My note to the insurer was along these lines.



I am not concerned about the condition of my keel bolts for the simple reason that my boat has a molded fiberglass keel with internal lead ballast that is fully encapsulated in fiberglass. In other words there are no keel bolts. The rust the surveyor saw was the top of an abandoned black iron fuel tank (abandoned more than 10 years before I bought the boat).


Note, when I hired the surveyor, who was recommended by the insurance company, he assured me that he knew all there was to know about my boat model. Clearly that was not the case.


Depending on your level of knowledge a survey may or may not be worth the money. Even then a survey may be worth the money depending on the value of the boat. I know people who have had brand new boats surveyed at delivery where the survey turned up significant deficiencies that the builder had to address. Given the emotional state of a person taking delivery of a new boat it is easy to overlook deficiencies - i.e., in the excitement of taking delivery of your new boat you miss/gloss over things. In other words, a survey can be quite valuable IF the surveyor is competent.

nodestination said:

Get a surveyor license - do self survey .

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Becoming a surveyor isn’t a license type of process. Usually the insurance company will require a surveyor that is a member of an accredited group such as NAMS or SAMS. The group has its own requirements to belong to the group. You have to look up those specific requirements of each group but up they usually include a certain number of completed surveys. It is an involved process. And by the way, I would expect the insurance company to question a survey done by the owner as an initial survey. They may accept an owner recheck survey but probably not as an initial survey. In 2002 Boat/US accepted me doing an initial survey due to my involvement with the CG Aux, but they no longer even do that.

BandB said:

A case in which the insurer's interests and your interests really were the same and they were protecting themselves, but in the process, protecting you. Without the survey and insurer, you might have put yourself in peril just with a safety issue you were completely unaware of.



The vast majority of the time, insurers are reasonable in what they insist on being fixed.

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Agreed. I certainly didn’t mind the restriction and yet appreciated the forebearance that allowed me to move the boat.

Comodave said:

Becoming a surveyor isn’t a license type of process. Usually the insurance company will require a surveyor that is a member of an accredited group such as NAMS or SAMS. The group has its own requirements to belong to the group. You have to look up those specific requirements of each group but up they usually include a certain number of completed surveys. It is an involved process. And by the way, I would expect the insurance company to question a survey done by the owner as an initial survey. They may accept an owner recheck survey but probably not as an initial survey. In 2002 Boat/US accepted me doing an initial survey due to my involvement with the CG Aux, but they no longer even do that.

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He was joking.

dhays said:

Agreed. I certainly didn’t mind the restriction and yet appreciated the forebearance that allowed me to move the boat.

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The insurers interests and the owners interests really do align.

Mike Lowthian said:

I am really disappointed on how inflexible insurance companies are on this subject. My policy expired and I want to change insurer because they were not licensed in the US. So I went shopping in the good old USA. Boat US/Geico agreed to insure me but their premium was too high so I elected to just insure for liability only and the premium went down to a very reasonable $300.00. I accepted but they wanted a survey less than 2 years old. This was a new/old boat for me and my purchase survey was 2 years and 5 months old. Not good enough for them. A new survey would mean a haul out and probably over $1,000 in expense, 3 times their premium. I asked them to reconsider, especially since it was only liability insurance I was applying for but they refused and insist on the new survey. Rules are rules, right. Guess I won't be doing business with Boat US/Geico. Does anyone know of another insurer I can apply to?

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There are a number of defects that can lead to a liability incident.

Ideally, the more thorough the insurer is, the lower their costs....and then your rates should be lower as well.

Its like the WC Fields quote: "I don't want to belong to any club that would let me in"

I wouldn't want a policy from a company that wasn't doing their due dilligence is controlling costs. These things are cyclical. Insurance company's losses go up....so rates go up. The best customers go elsewhere....they need more customers...so they ease up on standards.....losses go up more....rates go up more..The next best customers leave...... insurance company death spiral.

My insurer,which is a marine specialist, requires a survey at purchase if the boat is of a certain age. It required me to attend to certain items within a specified period, and was willing to discuss and amend at least one requirement.
It then requires an insurance survey every 5 years.They remind me a year ahead, that it will be required. I can have it done at a routine haul out anytime in the intervening period. Seems to work ok, so far.

BruceK said:

My insurer,which is a marine specialist, requires a survey at purchase if the boat is of a certain age. It required me to attend to certain items within a specified period, and was willing to discuss and amend at least one requirement.
It then requires an insurance survey every 5 years.They remind me a year ahead, that it will be required. I can have it done at a routine haul out anytime in the intervening period. Seems to work ok, so far.

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I use the same insurer, and had the 5 year survey a couple of months ago. I did not do anything to prepare for it, just my usual 'keep on top of it' maintenance. Nothing of significance revealed, but there was an inevitable list of items to attend to. As I was in the yard for antifoul and scheduled maintenance, it was easy to deal with the items on the list immediately, many done by myself. I advised my broker when complete. When he advised the insurers their response was 'thank you for dealing with the list of items so quickly'. I hope my file has that note as well!

The survey was not an insignificant cost, but I sleep easy and am cruising confidently knowing that an independent and critical/pedantic set of eyes has been all over the boat. I am happy to carry out the 5 year surveys, it is just a part of the cost of boating.

Everyone here knows that its the quality of maintenance of engines and boat systems that is more important than engine hours and boat age. Lack of maintenance is a clear red flag. To me another red flag would be lack of full insurance/lack of periodic professional surveys. I'll get the cost of my surveys back when the boat is sold because the boat will be seen to have been properly maintained.

Lack of destructive or certain types testing, disassembly of fixtures, thorough testing as in a detailed engine survey, etc......all mean the average survey has no better chance of catching serious problems than a knowledgeable, hands on owner knows or can find on his own boat.

Granted that the average boater doesnt meet those requirements, especially the larger and more complex vessels become..... but neither does an insurance survey over a pre-purchase survey in many cases.

psneeld said:

Lack of destructive or certain types testing, disassembly of fixtures, thorough testing as in a detailed engine survey, etc......all mean the average survey has no better chance of catching serious problems than a knowledgeable, hands on owner knows or can find on his own boat.

Granted that the average boater doesnt meet those requirements, especially the larger and more complex vessels become..... but neither does an insurance survey over a pre-purchase survey in many cases.

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Exactly!

So don't hire an "average" surveyor.

Well, it's really simple. An insurance survey is required. Some of us don't mind that requirement, others do.

survey smurvey, just get a liability policy and carry the rest.

what_barnacles said:

survey smurvey, just get a liability policy and carry the rest.

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They still require a survey.