Dead in the water

The Other Gary · May 28, 2018

Everyone with non electronic engines should have some basic knowledge of their systems and workarounds for the eventuality of having to start a diesel to get home.
Mine are Cummins 6bta 330's and newly rebuilt by myself from new long blocks.
The same solenoid is used for the starter (1) and the air heaters (2) so having a spare(s) or knowing where to borrow one on the engine will help get you home Because jumping a bad solenoid will get you nowhere. Knowing how your fuel is turned off and on will help you know how to turn it on if you lose power and need to restart to get home.
Know where your engine mounted breaker is located and what it looks like. On a 6bta it is a red (or white if you didn't tape it over when painting) push button on the top rear port side near the lifting lugs.
If you have fuel, air and a method of spinning over the engine you should be able to get home.
I carry a spare starter as well.
It is important to know that Cummins starter bolts need a 10mm 12 point socket for their special bolt heads. It is the only place on the engine requiring a 12 point socket. I have a brand new one wire tied to the new starter just for this reason.

Fletcher500 · May 28, 2018

Good thread. Nice to see people helping out fellow TF'rs. Had to use a screw driver to start the sewing machine engine on my first car (Datsun) a few times. Parking on an incline to jump start was also fun.

Al · May 28, 2018

Ski in NC said:

On the starter is the big red cable (batt positive) and a smaller wire/terminal (both on the back of the starter solenoid) that fires the solenoid coil. You briefly jump the two together to fire the starter. Maybe 20 amps. Dont try to jump the two big lugs together, that would be too many amps for a screwdriver.

Bonus if you have a test lead with two alligator clips on it, that makes it easier.

Fuel lift pump is mechanical on these, no worries there.

Click to expand...

Ski- Need confirmation on your suggestion of connecting the smaller post to the larger positive post. I have recently experienced a situation where the solenoid just clicked when the key switch was applied. After checking all the mechanical and electrical points with 13 plus volts at the starter, we pulled the starter and took it to our NAPA store. the starter seemed to check out on the test, of course there was no way to test the load. I had a replacement starter that had never been used, (Belt and Suspender mentality). When installed the same issue, just a clicking at the solenoid. This time the starter (New rebuilt) proved to be slow on the test stand, again no load test. Giving the thinking the starters were in fact bad.
Ordered a new rebuild starter from NAPA. Installed and the engine fired up.
Two days later, same issue, just a clicking at the solenoid. Typical backyard trick applied, a ball peen "Tap or two" to the starter.
Now I have no idea sif that was a "repair" or not, because after a couple of "Click" attempts the engine started like is always did.
Several starts were accomplished without any further issue.

My suspect (What are the chances that three starters are flawed?) now lays with the key switch or something between the dash and the starter which I will have to chase down.

Okay, after all this explanation comes the question

Given your emergency solution, what would your thinking be if as a precaution away from shops and such, building a jumper wire unit that incorporated a push button switch allowing the unit to be installed dormant ready for an emergency without the ensuing sparks that occurs when applying alligator clips to live post. I would assume the wire used in such a setup should be the largest diameter (8-10)
Thanks, :flowers:

Al-Ketchikan
(Perkins 4-236 engine)

RT Firefly · May 28, 2018

Greetings,
Mr. Al. There should be minimal sparking when attaching alligator clips to appropriate terminals on a solenoid. Get one of these:

https://www.harborfreight.com/12-volt-remote-starter-switch-35448.html

$10.

The Other Gary · May 28, 2018

Al, when a starter fails to turn over but you hear a solenoid click most assume a bad starter, even with a second unit doing the same thing. The reality many times is that the actuator in the solenoid is working but the heavy amperage contacts in the solenoid have degraded and are not sending adequate amperage to the starter. That is why I mentioned having spare solenoid unit aboard. They are easier to swap out than a starter and many times are the culprit.

Simi 60 · May 28, 2018

The Other Gary said:
Al, when a starter fails to turn over but you hear a solenoid click most assume a bad starter, even with a second unit doing the same thing. The reality many times is that the actuator in the solenoid is working but the heavy amperage contacts in the solenoid have degraded and are not sending adequate amperage to the starter. That is why I mentioned having spare solenoid unit aboard. They are easier to swap out than a starter and many times are the culprit.

Emergency remedy for that on cars was to give the solenoid a tap.

Ski in NC · May 28, 2018

Al said:
Ski- Need confirmation on your suggestion of connecting the smaller post to the larger positive post. I have recently experienced a situation where the solenoid just clicked when the key switch was applied. After checking all the mechanical and electrical points with 13 plus volts at the starter, we pulled the starter and took it to our NAPA store. the starter seemed to check out on the test, of course there was no way to test the load. I had a replacement starter that had never been used, (Belt and Suspender mentality). When installed the same issue, just a clicking at the solenoid. This time the starter (New rebuilt) proved to be slow on the test stand, again no load test. Giving the thinking the starters were in fact bad.
Ordered a new rebuild starter from NAPA. Installed and the engine fired up.
Two days later, same issue, just a clicking at the solenoid. Typical backyard trick applied, a ball peen "Tap or two" to the starter.
Now I have no idea sif that was a "repair" or not, because after a couple of "Click" attempts the engine started like is always did.
Several starts were accomplished without any further issue.

My suspect (What are the chances that three starters are flawed?) now lays with the key switch or something between the dash and the starter which I will have to chase down.

Okay, after all this explanation comes the question

Given your emergency solution, what would your thinking be if as a precaution away from shops and such, building a jumper wire unit that incorporated a push button switch allowing the unit to be installed dormant ready for an emergency without the ensuing sparks that occurs when applying alligator clips to live post. I would assume the wire used in such a setup should be the largest diameter (8-10)
Thanks,
Al-Ketchikan
(Perkins 4-236 engine)

Most marine engines have not only a solenoid on the starter to pull the bendix gear in, but also a relay that fires the solenoid. The solenoid might pull 20A to engage and that is more than you want in light gauge wires going up to the helm and back. So you hit start and an amp or so fires the relay, and the relay fires the solenoid.

So if you get a "click" with no start, it could be the relay, could be the solenoid, could be the starter, could be connections, could be the batts. Only way to tell for sure is to put a meter on various terminals and read volts while a helper holds the button. Find out where volts are and where they are not and you can zero in on the problem.

Al · May 28, 2018

Thanks RT- :flowers:

Will be to NAPA on the morrow!!!
Mr. Al. There should be minimal sparking when attaching alligator clips to appropriate terminals on a solenoid. Get one of these:

Other Gary, :flowers:

Thanks Lad, all good advise and will be inserted in the engine file

And to Ski-

All of this information will be employed, Starting tomorrow. Thanks each of you proving once again the worth of the forum.

I am going first, as I need the experience, going to remove the new starter and insert the original. (Might even have time trials

) The test bench numbers according to NAPA fellow, showed the original starter to extent of his test, was good. The second and new starter, did not. As the original starter was operating normal till the sudden "Click" I want to change it back to determine in my MacGyver way of operating, if the issue is somewhere else.

Al-Ketchikan

C lectric · May 28, 2018

Simi,

You PT pump WILL have a screw that can be turned to allow fuel flow without the electric fuel control solenoid being energized. If you suspect the fuel control solenoid turn that screw.

C lectric · May 28, 2018

SlowsailNC said:
The engine mounted circuit breaker had tripped. Had a devil of a time finding it. The location was not shown in any of the engine view drawings in my O&M manual. Finally found a photo on the Seaboard Marine website. I was looking for a lever type circuit breaker and this is a push button style.

Once reset the engine fired right up. I am going to clean the terminals but with the age of the boat I plan on ordering a new breaker next week.

The good news is that I cleaned a lot of electrical connections that needed it and learned a lot more about our boat systems in the process.

Thanks once again to everyone who replied yesterday, especially Ski.

Gene

I have seen circuit breakers fail just from age that I could tell.. However, repeated near overloads that don't trip the first few dozen times can have an effect. Then sometimes like any electro/mechanical device they age. There are little springs and levers in them to make them work and one can fail or the pivots wear .

One of the biggest reasons though for them to fail or nuisance trip is a poor connection that creates heat. That heat will travel into the breaker and cause a nuisance trip. That can come from dirty and/or oxidized connections at the circuit breaker. That can include the barrel of the crimped on terminal.

So clean things up, coat the connections with a dielectric grease or spray, recrimp the terminal barrels and go. Just be aware that if the C.B. is ageing out it may do it again.

Last is check the current it is passing. Maybe there was a real reason for it to trip. As suggested carefully inspect downstream connections and if you can borrow an ammeter, clip on, or borrow a friend with one check the actual draw to ensure there isn't something going on.

stubones99 · May 29, 2018

koliver said:
Cappy:
I had to call my mechanic, when my boat was new to me and I couldn't get the starter solenoid to pull in and power the starter. His suggestion: using a large screwdriver with an insulated handle, reach into the area of the starter solenoid ( on the off side of the Port engine), until I contacted the terminals and the engine fired.
No consequences. You can try this (Try it on the exposed side of the Starboard engine) the results are dramatic the first time. No harm to the equipment.

Use a screwdriver with a large blade and one you don't need later. The amperage can take a bite out of the blade. All you're doing is shorting the starter bendix so it puts the starter in gear and fires up the starter motor.

Back in the day, we did that with tractors when we happened to not have a key handy. Make sure nothing else on the screwdriver touches a grounded part.

Robvald · May 29, 2018

stubones99 said:
Use a screwdriver with a large blade and one you don't need later. The amperage can take a bite out of the blade. All you're doing is shorting the starter bendix so it puts the starter in gear and fires up the starter motor.

Back in the day, we did that with tractors when we happened to not have a key handy. Make sure nothing else on the screwdriver touches a grounded part.

Or just buy one of these

Ski in NC · May 29, 2018

Simi 60 said:
Thanks for that.
There are indications in this thread that a screw at the left in picture can be wound out to let fuel flow and wind back in to stop.
https://talk.newagtalk.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=4073&DisplayType=flat

Would that work do you think?

Our solenoid looks like this but painted white.

Simi- go start your motor and unwind the valve. Then turn off run toggle. See if engine stays running.

It might work the other way, unwind it and engine stops.

Al · May 30, 2018

Report on status of starter issue on our boat. Thanks to Ski, I have ordered a remote starter unit, Heavy duty unit. I will place this in the proximity of the starter.
Going back to the boat after the new replacement starter had been installed a couple of days prior, I attempted to start the engine and the same "Click" happened. After two attempts the engine started fine and in several subsequence efforts fired off as well.
Having watched the mechanic install the starter and noting that it was not a big deal, I thought hard on removing this "Working Starter" and re-install the original starter which I retained from the two on hand. The other being the core return item.
Installed the starter, checked all the connections and VAWOOM! the original starter fired off and did so for several following attempts.
The mechanic when I spoke with him, was a bewildered as I. At this point I am thinking some bitty thing evolved to affect the two starters as a fluke. Hence the follow up with ordering a remote starter unit. Of course the new replacement starter is in the inventory!!
Thanks again to the wonders of this forum providing information or suggestions.

Regards,
Al

The Other Gary · May 30, 2018

As I mentioned before the click with no results is usually the magnetic switch located just forward of the starter. It's 22 bucks and replacing it ensures full juice going to the starter. You have 3 of these per engine, one for the starter and two more further forward for the air heaters, all on the port side.

Simi 60 · May 31, 2018

Ski in NC said:
Simi- go start your motor and unwind the valve. Then turn off run toggle. See if engine stays running.

It might work the other way, unwind it and engine stops.

I will do in the near future.
Thanks.

Al · May 31, 2018

I shouldn't have been joking about time trials on starter removal/replacement. When to the boat this PM and hit the key, "Click" same result as prior to changing out yet again, I bet the tounge and grabbed my alligator clip wire and connected from the small positive to the battery terminal on the starter. "Clck".

The starter involved at this time was the original starter. As you recall, I removed the replacement starter when it was apparent it worked. I wanted to confirm either I had a bad first starter, or not. As reported, with the original starter re-installed, the engine caught and did so for a number of start/stop test. Satisfied I went home. Now today the condition remains. So I took the new replacement starter to NAPA and confirmed with the bench test, the starter is good. Removed the original starter once again, and inserted the new replacement starter once removed, The engine started continually for the number of times attempted.
I took the origianl starter back to NAPA and once again bench tested the unit. BINGO! the bendix extended and remained solid againt the back.
Why the original starter worked as it did upon reinstalling and then failing, I have no idea.
I have ordered a new second reman starter which will be placed in the inventory.

I can now remove and replace at the pace I once did my militar M1 field strip!!!

Al

FF · Jun 1, 2018

"I have ordered a new second reman starter which will be placed in the inventory."

Now that its just a quick swop, install the "new" reman and keep the functioning unit as the spare. Sailboat style.

Dead in the water

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