Dead in the water

The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
See posts with no answers
Three Cheers for the SKI! Hip Hip Hooray! Hip Hip Hooray! Hip Hip Hooray!
 
Very nice show, both afloat and ashore!

For the record, I HAVE shorted the heavy positive starter terminal on a vehicle with a screwdriver before. I'm pretty sure it wasn't an OSHA-compliant thing to do, and it did make a lot of sparks and ruin the screwdriver. But when desperate, you do what you gotta do! I doubt I'd try it nowadays, especially with a big diesel.
 
Yes very impressive Ski. You are our go to guy. TF is the best
 
dhays said:
I agree. I think TF should create a special member category for individuals like Ski. Instead of “Guru”, I think “Hero” would be appropriate.
Click to expand...

:thumb::thumb:

Al-Ketchikan
 
Well done Ski
I take it that method will work on pretty much all diesels?
If so I will add it to my engine manual.

Its something I have often worried about in the back of my mind, we have no key, just two toggle switches.
One to energize the system with a loud oil pressure horn blaring and hit the second one to crank.

Never did the install so not sure how it worked.
 
Thanks for the kudos, all. But this was just the basic how to jumpstart a mechanical diesel. Any boat thief knows this stuff!! And lucky for no computers!!

Simi- What engine do you have? Starter are all pretty similar, but what varies is how the shutdown is handled. Some are electric to stop, some are electric to run, some have a mechanical pull cable to stop.
 
Before you get too much time into solving this, check your battery voltage. The only time we had a solenoid problem like that it turned out to be a battery problem. Strangely, the battery had enough power to turn the starter motor but not enough to do that and hold the solenoid open. Needed new starter battery - not a new solenoid! Fortunately our issue was at the dock at the beginning of the season.
 
HeyJude said:
Gene...please post your findings when issue solved. Thx, PD
Click to expand...

The engine mounted circuit breaker had tripped. Had a devil of a time finding it. The location was not shown in any of the engine view drawings in my O&M manual. Finally found a photo on the Seaboard Marine website. I was looking for a lever type circuit breaker and this is a push button style.

Once reset the engine fired right up. I am going to clean the terminals but with the age of the boat I plan on ordering a new breaker next week.

The good news is that I cleaned a lot of electrical connections that needed it and learned a lot more about our boat systems in the process.

Thanks once again to everyone who replied yesterday, especially Ski.

Gene
 
Ski in NC said:
Simi- What engine do you have? Starter are all pretty similar, but what varies is how the shutdown is handled. Some are electric to stop, some are electric to run, some have a mechanical pull cable to stop.
Click to expand...

Cummins nta855m
No pull cable, just flick toggle from run to off.
 
Gene, nice to see that you found the problem. I know what you mean about learning about your boat and engine.
 
This story is the main reason I don't buy electronically controlled engines or boats with them. For 70 years plus, almost all diesels once started ran until out of fuel. Everything was mechanical. Many old style engines run for decades without repairs. Anything that interferes with a diesel engine running doesn't belong on a boat. Especially one that may go far from land.

Commercial operators forced into installing these unreliable engines, over time, end up carrying hundreds if not thousands of dollars in overpriced spares. And for what? Slightly better economy or a little cleaner exhaust from the smallest group of engine users in any country. The only people happy with the reliability are the ones selling replacement parts and services. Or maybe the tow services.
Yeah, it's an old guy rant, but really about change for worse. One thing nice about being old, I can live out my life running engines that will get me home.
 
Lepke I agree with your comments about electronically controlled engines but that is a different story.
Gene's 6BTA is mechanical, and stopped initially because of low power to a normally closed fuel solenoid.
To me for a marine engine the fuel solenoid should be normally open. That way once it is running you shouldn't need power to keep it going.
I have had a similar failure on one of my Yanmar 315's but on that engine the solenoid is an all enclosed plunger type with no hope of a cable tie to hold it open. So now (after lots of expense tracking the fault), I carry a spare.
My question is does anyone have a clever idea of how to convert to normally open?
 
dhays said:
Gene, nice to see that you found the problem. I know what you mean about learning about your boat and engine.
Click to expand...

Dave,

I would be a lot more comfortable if I knew WHY the breaker opened. The screws that mount it in place appear to have the original factory paint. I just finished removing the breaker, cleaning the connections and reinstalling it.

Hopefully it is just an age related issue (the boat is a 1999) and that replacing the breaker will fix everything. I am not electrically savvy enough to know the other possible reasons that it opened.

Gene
 
Lepke said:
This story is the main reason I don't buy electronically controlled engines or boats with them. For 70 years plus, almost all diesels once started ran until out of fuel. Everything was mechanical. Many old style engines run for decades without repairs. Anything that interferes with a diesel engine running doesn't belong on a boat. Especially one that may go far from land.

Commercial operators forced into installing these unreliable engines, over time, end up carrying hundreds if not thousands of dollars in overpriced spares. And for what? Slightly better economy or a little cleaner exhaust from the smallest group of engine users in any country. The only people happy with the reliability are the ones selling replacement parts and services. Or maybe the tow services.
Yeah, it's an old guy rant, but really about change for worse. One thing nice about being old, I can live out my life running engines that will get me home.
Click to expand...

You could have made the same argument about electronic controls in cars and they seem to work out pretty well. I have had mechanical controlled diesels and electronically controlled diesels and don’t want to go back to mechanical. My current electronic engines (Cats) just passed 4000 hours and are awesome. They run clean and smoke free from a cold start. They will idle for a week or run at full throttle for hours and I get no smoke, fumes, or unburned fuel. Its progress I am happy to have. And by the way, I’m not a young guy.
 
SlowsailNC said:
Dave,



I would be a lot more comfortable if I knew WHY the breaker opened. The screws that mount it in place appear to have the original factory paint. I just finished removing the breaker, cleaning the connections and reinstalling it.



Hopefully it is just an age related issue (the boat is a 1999) and that replacing the breaker will fix everything. I am not electrically savvy enough to know the other possible reasons that it opened.



Gene
Click to expand...



Oh, I hear you Gene. I also think it is worth knowing why it opened. I don’t like intermittent problems.
 
guy with a boat said:
You could have made the same argument about electronic controls in cars and they seem to work out pretty well. I have had mechanical controlled diesels and electronically controlled diesels and don’t want to go back to mechanical. My current electronic engines (Cats) just passed 4000 hours and are awesome. They run clean and smoke free from a cold start. They will idle for a week or run at full throttle for hours and I get no smoke, fumes, or unburned fuel. Its progress I am happy to have. And by the way, I’m not a young guy.
Click to expand...

I know of several boats build in countries with all the flash diagnostic gear and mechanics at hand and all was good.
They then went to remote areas like PNG, Indo, Solomons,Vanuatu where diagnostic tools were probably a stick and a hammer and they were a pita.
A couple of them that remained as work boats had the modern engines replaced with old rebuilt simple engines, others had to came back to civilisation.
 
Last edited:
Simi 60 said:
I know of several boats build in countries with all the flash diagnostic gear and mechanics at hand and all was good.
They then went to remote areas like PNG, Indo, Solomons,Vanuatu where diagnostic tools were probably a stick and a hammer and they were a pita.
A couple of them that remained as work boats had the modern engines replaced with old rebuilt simple engines, others had to came back to civilisation.
Click to expand...

Mine haven’t had any issues so repair capability hasn’t been relevant. Also I limit my travels to the west coast of North America and the Caribe and service is generally reasonably available. If I decide to head to Vanautu I will carefully consider the possible drawbacks of depending on techology that can’t be fixed with a hammer.
 
"To me for a marine engine the fuel solenoid should be normally open. That way once it is running you shouldn't need power to keep it going."


Installing a push pull cable might cost less than a solenoid , and be far more reliable.
 
SlowsailNC said:
Dave,

I would be a lot more comfortable if I knew WHY the breaker opened.
Click to expand...

That is a good attitude. Could be age, could be an intermittent short. So take this time to find a replacement in case the breaker fails permanently. Also eyeball the entire harness for chafe and cracked insulation.
 
Gene- Glad you found the popped breaker. But of course it begs the question why it popped, and we don't know that. There is not that much stuff downstream of the breaker, but boatbuilders like to get creative with wiring and who knows what they have running off that system. I too would replace it as a first step. And then run it and see if it recurs. At least now you know where it is and can reset it quickly, and worst case do the zip tie and jump thing.

Simi- Your NTA 855's use a PT pump that has been used in a bazillion road tractors which use an electric to run solenoid. Lose power, engine stops. Sounds like that is your arrangement too. I think there are industrial versions that use an electric to stop, but I have never looked into it. Might be as simple as a solenoid swap and then replace you toggle with a stop push button.

Those with 6BTA/6CTA the solenoid arrangement can be changed to electric to stop, but all were rather crude redneck things. I don't think I've seen a clean kit for the Bosch P7100. I just keep an eye on my system volts and if for some reason it starts dropping, I'll go zip tie the solenoid before volts get too low.
 
Last edited:
High Wire said:
That is a good attitude. Could be age, could be an intermittent short. So take this time to find a replacement in case the breaker fails permanently. Also eyeball the entire harness for chafe and cracked insulation.
Click to expand...



Thermal circuit breakers are not known for absolute reliability. A loose connection on the CB can cause a trip.
 
Ski in NC said:
.

Simi- Your NTA 855's use a PT pump that has been used in a bazillion road tractors which use an electric to run solenoid. Lose power, engine stops. Sounds like that is your arrangement too. I think there are industrial versions that use an electric to stop, but I have never looked into it. Might be as simple as a solenoid swap and then replace you toggle with a stop push button.
.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that.
There are indications in this thread that a screw at the left in picture can be wound out to let fuel flow and wind back in to stop.
https://talk.newagtalk.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=4073&DisplayType=flat

Would that work do you think?

Our solenoid looks like this but painted white.
61JoMvHHZyL._SL1000_.jpg
 
This is quite an illuminating thread.

Can any of you share previous experience when jumping the starter as described?

Does it cause any other detrimental issues?

Can this be done on an 'experimental' basis, to try it without being in extremis to find out how to do it, but not cause other issues?

Seems like an awesome thing to put in the manual as a 'back up' plan.
 
Cappy:
I had to call my mechanic, when my boat was new to me and I couldn't get the starter solenoid to pull in and power the starter. His suggestion: using a large screwdriver with an insulated handle, reach into the area of the starter solenoid ( on the off side of the Port engine), until I contacted the terminals and the engine fired.
No consequences. You can try this (Try it on the exposed side of the Starboard engine) the results are dramatic the first time. No harm to the equipment.
 
U guys are scaring me. Shorting terminals, potentially with an unfused source of a kAmp must be done by someone who knows what each term does.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

PhilPB
Low voltage on Generator?
Replies
10
Views
1K
High Wire
High Wire
LenBuchanan
Low Voltage - Possible corrosion Problem?
Replies
5
Views
696
AnsleyS
AnsleyS
Gypsy Diver
Balmer voltage regulator vs battery isolator
Replies
6
Views
750
Bmarler
B
Shrew
Both Tachs stopped Working
Replies
22
Views
3K
gerilla
G
NWboater2
8D starting battery replacement
2
Replies
39
Views
3K
NWboater2
NWboater2

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom