Refrigerators and Freezers

aevdg · Mar 19, 2018

We are doing some upgrades on our Kadey Krogen 42, and I get to have a new Fridge and Freezer. I want to have dual power - 120 and 12 volt.

I am looking for recommendations.

Brand?

Separate Fridge from Freezer? Any Experience with Freezer Drawers?

I have a huge stainless steel LG with freezer on bottom at home and LOVE IT. - I haven't seen anything similar.

All ideas and suggestions much appreciated.

Irish Rambler · Mar 19, 2018

Take a look at the Vitrifrigo range.
I bought one after several other types failed, expensive but worth it.
That's just my experience others may offer different solutions.
Chat to Richard on Dauntless, he has a KK with nice setup.

Larry M · Mar 19, 2018

We added a SeaFreeze custom system 10 plus years ago and it has worked flawlessly. We have left the boat at anchor for 5 plus days and have used less 550 amps total with no solar or generator run time. The refrigerator side is ~ is about 6 cubic feet and the freezer is ~2.5. We had them up the insulation to 4" all the way around with 3.5" in the doors and 2.5" in the dividing wall. The refrigerator uses a Danfoss BD35 compressor and the freezer uses a BD50. They both use the same electronic module so I carry one as a spare although I've never needed it. We can keep ice cream hard easily.

Question: Why a duel voltage system? The 12VDC Danfoss compresses are bullet proof.

Sea Freeze of America - Custom Marine Refrigeration, Deck Freezers, Cold Plates

Ken E. · Mar 19, 2018

Ditto on Sea Freeze. I just installed a custom 12v freezer from them, 6 cu feet, external compressor, 4" insulation. Several boat friends here in Bellingham have used Sea Freeze refers and freezers for years and rave about the low power consumption.

Maerin · Mar 19, 2018

I'll echo Larry's question on why dual voltage.... more cost, when would you ever NOT have 12V available? Most marine refrigeration is 12-24VDC as primary, the 110V capability is via a power supply that simply converts the 120V to 12/24.

I recently replaced my 2nd Vitrifrigo in less than 8yrs, I'm not a fan. Although they're pretty well made, mine were forever unreliable, and we simply were fed up with stinky milk, sticky lunch meat, and wilted produce. They simply would not maintain an adequate box temp despite extensive efforts to DX, add auxiliary ventilation, speed control, thermostat, etc. It rarely cycled off. 36 hrs to recover to 40F from defrost.

We just replaced the last VF with a NovaKool RFU9000. It's not a fit for your KK, but we love the layout, and it's been maintaining box temps of 38F pretty consistently on the mid setting. I know they have a wide range of product, they may have one to fit.

I've met several KK42 owners who had the subzero hogs, Larry's solution seems to be a happy voice in the midst.

I have a Frigoboat keel-cooled system at the heart of built-in freezer I rebuilt and converted from a holding plate, I love it. Very efficient, and absolutely silent. It can't, however be run out of the water, although they make a dual keel-cooled/air cooled condenser that can. If you do end up with Danfoss-equipped gear, and you cruise beyond easy reach of replacement parts, a spare control module would probably be a prudent addition to your parts inventory, since it seems that when a fridge/freezer with a Danfoss goes down, it's typically the control module. It's not a complicated swap-out, and having the part on board could be the difference of a temporary rise in box temps vs. total loss of the contents.

Good luck on the search, keep asking lots of questions, the questions you ask now will save you headache down the road, and there's no headache quite like a refrigeration problem on board a cruising boat!! :nonono:

caltexflanc · Mar 19, 2018

Good luck on the search, keep asking lots of questions, the questions you ask now will save you headache down the road, and there's no headache quite like a refrigeration problem on board a cruising boat!!

Headaches? What headache? Those things you're talking about aren't refrigerators, THIS is a refrigerator ;o)

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FF · Mar 20, 2018

" Most marine refrigeration is 12-24VDC as primary, the 110V capability is via a power supply that simply converts the 120V to 12/24."

YES

This is because a modern DC unit is speed controlled to go slowest and use the least current to maintain the box temperature.

rnummi · Apr 20, 2018

U-line 24s

Stainless Steel. Perfect replacements for the OEM sub-zeros on a KK42. Not dual voltage but relatively inexpensive.

Simi 60 · Apr 20, 2018

To get a so called "quality" 12v fridge the size of a small bar fridge, will most likely cost more than a full sized household fridge/freezer.
To get 12v refrigeration comparable to the size of household refrigeration will cost many times more again.

Easier and far more cost effective in my eyes (especially in aus) is to buy a decent household fridge and a decent inverter charger and it'll still probably cost way less money than the 12v equivalent.

Go bigger inverter again and run multiple household appliances bought cheap anywhere.
If and when the fridge dies (our 17.5 cubic ft Samsung is 13 years old) we simply ditch it and buy another for $1200.
How much is that toy 12v fridge again?

JDCAVE · Apr 20, 2018

AEVDG: The PO put Novacool units on our KK42. The fit in the same footprint as the subzero units. Larry used SeaFreeze. I’d go with them.

Delfin · Apr 20, 2018

Larry M said:
We added a SeaFreeze custom system 10 plus years ago and it has worked flawlessly. We have left the boat at anchor for 5 plus days and have used less 550 amps total with no solar or generator run time. The refrigerator side is ~ is about 6 cubic feet and the freezer is ~2.5. We had them up the insulation to 4" all the way around with 3.5" in the doors and 2.5" in the dividing wall. The refrigerator uses a Danfoss BD35 compressor and the freezer uses a BD50. They both use the same electronic module so I carry one as a spare although I've never needed it. We can keep ice cream hard easily.

Question: Why a duel voltage system? The 12VDC Danfoss compresses are bullet proof.

Sea Freeze of America - Custom Marine Refrigeration, Deck Freezers, Cold Plates

That is very nice, Larry. I had a weird shaped space for ours so I had to build it myself, but I used the danfoss bd 35 for the refer and bd 50 for the freezer. And yes, they seem bulletproof, so I would not worry about dual voltage. Invert from 120vac to 12vdc, which is a capacity you will likely have anyway.

john61ct · Apr 20, 2018

Delfin said:
That is very nice, Larry. I had a weird shaped space for ours so I had to build it myself, but I used the danfoss bd 35 for the refer and bd 50 for the freezer. And yes, they seem bulletproof, so I would not worry about dual voltage. Invert from 120vac to 12vdc, which is a capacity you will likely have anyway.

Inverting is from AC to DC.

A charger goes the other way, confusingly often called a "converter" in the US RV biz.

dhays · Apr 20, 2018

Simi 60 said:
To get a so called "quality" 12v fridge the size of a small bar fridge, will most likely cost more than a full sized household fridge/freezer.
To get 12v refrigeration comparable to the size of household refrigeration will cost many times more again.

Easier and far more cost effective in my eyes (especially in aus) is to buy a decent household fridge and a decent inverter charger and it'll still probably cost way less money than the 12v equivalent.

Go bigger inverter again and run multiple household appliances bought cheap anywhere.
If and when the fridge dies (our 17.5 cubic ft Samsung is 13 years old) we simply ditch it and buy another for $1200.
How much is that toy 12v fridge again?

You are certainly right about the purchase costs, but... What about the cost of running the generator enough to keep that 120v fridge running? The cost to get a large enough battery bank to handle inverting a full size 120v fridge?

Not saying it isn’t a good idea, but there is more involved than just buying a domestic fridge and dropping it in place. The manufacturer of my charger/inverter claims it has 88% efficiency. That may be true when inverting at close to its max capability, but I seriously doubt that it is close to that under typical use. So if you lose 15% of your DC power by inverting it to 120v, you are likely doing well.

Mako · Apr 21, 2018

dhays said:
What about the cost of running the generator enough to keep that 120v fridge running? The cost to get a large enough battery bank to handle inverting a full size 120v fridge?

Not saying it isn’t a good idea, but there is more involved than just buying a domestic fridge and dropping it in place. The manufacturer of my charger/inverter claims it has 88% efficiency. That may be true when inverting at close to its max capability, but I seriously doubt that it is close to that under typical use. So if you lose 15% of your DC power by inverting it to 120v, you are likely doing well.

The problem is with American appliances, which are energy hogs. You need to find a "European style" fridge/freezer like a Samsung/LG/etc. which utilize digital inverter technology. You can run a 10-14 cf unit from a cheapo 600 watt dedicated sine waver inverter and consume less than a 500 watts daily. Check your local stores or try to find an A+++ rated unit. These units use less electric than most any 12 VDC marine unit except the SunFrosts, but those cost about $2000 more than the combo I mentioned.

Simi 60 · Apr 21, 2018

dhays said:
You are certainly right about the purchase costs, but... What about the cost of running the generator enough to keep that 120v fridge running? The cost to get a large enough battery bank to handle inverting a full size 120v fridge?

We don't just run that big fridge we also run 2 x 3.5 cf bar fridges and 1 x 3.5 cf freezer all on 240v.
How much would that amount of refrigeration cost in 12v?
More importantly for us, if I did have all that in 12v how much would my ongoing cost be?
Being that invested means I can't just dump them and put a new one in but have to get someone down at great expense to try and fix them and from what I see and read good fridge mechanics are hard to find and in high demand.

If the household stuff dies I have a new one onboard in 24 hours, 48 hours if in a more remote location, the smaller fridges for less than the cost of callout fee for the fridge mechanic.

As for cost to run.
Today was a rainy day so I ran our 7 kva genset for 1.5 hours and got batteries back to 100% AND the 180 litre 240v hot water system to cutout temp.
Sun came out later so no need to run again for today's amp usage.
Add: plus don't most of you guys run genset for a/c? Charge for battery/inverter at the same time.

Sure, we did add a
New 800 amp battery bank was $3000 as the battery bank was dead when purchased
New victron 5000va/120amp inverter charger was $3000 as the inverter was dead when purchased
(Smaller fridges will obviously need considerably smaller and cheaper battery and inverter)
And we also added 2200 watts of panels $1000
And a mppt charger for $700 so 80% of the time we don't even use the genset.

By my calculations the solar has paid for itself inside two years and to my way of thinking we are still in front vs 30 odd cf of 12v setup and we get to enjoy cheap, easily replaceable 240v household stuff.

Simi 60 · Apr 21, 2018

makobuilders said:
The problem is with American appliances, which are energy hogs. You need to find a "European style" fridge/freezer like a Samsung/LG/etc. which utilize digital inverter technology.

Yep, I won't be upset when this 13 year old Samsung dies.
A new $1200 twin door haier replacement has a better energy rating than most of the Samsung, l
Lg, Westinghouse variants.
Should see a marked improvement in power usage.

dhays · Apr 21, 2018

You are right Simi, 240v is a lot more efficient than the 120v. I would suggest that your situation is quite a bit different than most boaters who need to replace their fridge. For your situation, you have it setup really well.

Aquabelle · Apr 21, 2018

Simi 60 said:
To get a so called "quality" 12v fridge the size of a small bar fridge, will most likely cost more than a full sized household fridge/freezer.
To get 12v refrigeration comparable to the size of household refrigeration will cost many times more again.

Easier and far more cost effective in my eyes (especially in aus) is to buy a decent household fridge and a decent inverter charger and it'll still probably cost way less money than the 12v equivalent.

Go bigger inverter again and run multiple household appliances bought cheap anywhere.
If and when the fridge dies (our 17.5 cubic ft Samsung is 13 years old) we simply ditch it and buy another for $1200.
How much is that toy 12v fridge again?

Dead right!!

twistedtree · Apr 21, 2018

FF said:
" Most marine refrigeration is 12-24VDC as primary, the 110V capability is via a power supply that simply converts the 120V to 12/24."

YES

This is because a modern DC unit is speed controlled to go slowest and use the least current to maintain the box temperature.

Be careful. The opposite is true in some, particularly Dometic, where the DC input is inverted to drive the compressor. You relly can't tell from looking at the outside of the unit. If you can get a schematic, it might be possible to tell. Your best info I think will be the spec sheets, and more likely the EPA sheet for determining power consumption.

siestakey · Apr 21, 2018

Simi 60 said:
Yep, I won't be upset when this 13 year old Samsung dies.
A new $1200 twin door haier replacement has a better energy rating than most of the Samsung, l
Lg, Westinghouse variants.
Should see a marked improvement in power usage.

When Haier first came to the states the quality was not good but I really seen some great improvements in the last few years, I helped a friend instal a under the counter ice maker with a low amp compressor

OldDan1943 · Apr 21, 2018

caltexflanc said:
Headaches? What headache? Those things you're talking about aren't refrigerators, THIS is a refrigerator ;o)

That is not a boat. That is one of them big yachett

Sabre602 · Apr 21, 2018

A friend in Canada is renovating a great old 45 foot Monk trawler; he will be living aboard full time. He has taken a lesson from the "overlanding" folks who take prolonged back country trips. For them, power resources are a critical consideration.

Modern top-loading, high-efficiency fridge/freezer units from ARB, Engel, Dometic and others are far, far more efficient than virtually any of the units intended for marine use. They use a swing compressor system and all of them support both 120v and 12v.

In his case, he installed two stacked ARB units. They pull out on heavy-duty slides (as is commonly done in vehicle installations). They're all combination units that have the capability to be set as a pure freezer, pure fridge, or combination units.

We'll likely do a conversion like this at some point, though we'd use only one unit rather than two. Besides the big bump in power efficiency, I really prefer the top-loading configuration over squatting down to dig through and see what's been shoved to the back of the fridge.

Bay Pelican · Apr 21, 2018

Using a 120v domestic refrigerator / freezer is not an issue for a boat which spends most of its time in a marina with shore power. It is an anchor that two things must be considered. My old Subzero refrigerator and separate freezer used 440 amps (DC) per day to operate off the inverter. This was a major drain on the batteries and required more generator run time. It also limited the number of hours we could leave the boat on day trips as we needed to run the generator to recharge the batteries.

The second aspect is the reduction in battery life because of this heavy usage. Lead acid batteries have lives measured in cycles, not years. Thus to draw down the battery bank to power the refrigeration regardless of whether you quickly recharge it is a cycle. My Trojan 105s are designed for 1200 cycles. To double the number of cycles per day to power the refrigeration cuts the battery life in half.

Again, like many things in boating, it is how you use the boat that determines certain factors as to what is best.

We switched from Subzeros to Isotherm units and loved the changed. Last season we rarely ran the generator in the evening.

OldDan1943 · Apr 21, 2018

Did we ever decide which was the best "stand alone" 12vt freezer/refrigerator chest?
I may have to run away soon (some woman has declared her undying love for me) and want to get things all set up for a fast escape.
I am getting real scared.

Simi 60 · Apr 21, 2018

Bay Pelican said:
Using a 120v domestic refrigerator / freezer is not an issue for a boat which spends most of its time in a marina with shore power. .

And yet here I am with a boat full of domestic refrigeration and haven't been in a marina in two years.

Of course you do make a point about leaving the boat unintended for any length of time.
If there is no sun the batteries will go flat without someone firing up the genset though I suspect even with a 12v system, the same laws of physics will apply.

Reality is that if we had to leave the boat for any more than 48 hours we'd be putting her in a marina anyway so problem sorted.

stubones99 · Apr 21, 2018

I know three people who have had Samsung fridges that died early and Samsung tried to deny the warranty even though it was well within warranty period, and then took 4-4 weeks to get a repairman and parts to fix them.

Samsung has some Q/C problems that need to be addressed before I'll buy anything from them again.

john61ct · Apr 21, 2018

OldDan1943 said:
Did we ever decide which was the best "stand alone" 12vt freezer/refrigerator chest?
I may have to run away soon (some woman has declared her undying love for me) and want to get things all set up for a fast escape.
I am getting real scared.

Engel for longevity and energy efficiency.

Can be a bit noisier than the Waeco / Danfoss type.

Really not huge differences, if you find a great bargain per cu.ft. grab it.

OldDan1943 · Apr 21, 2018

john61ct said:
Engel for longevity and energy efficiency.

Can be a bit noisier than the Waeco / Danfoss type.

Really not huge differences, if you find a great bargain per cu.ft. grab it.

It will be in the AT tank room
Thanks

BruceK · Apr 22, 2018

stubones99 said:
Samsung has some Q/C problems that need to be addressed before I'll buy anything from them again.[/QUOTE,]Samsung had a spot of bother here with washing machines catching fire (and some houses they were installed in)and with repairs, warranty, recall, etc.
But a 610L Hisense 2 door fridge/freezer costs around $950,and a 50L Waeco(Dometic) costs about the same. Both are made in China.
Somewhat troubling on price and value.

Delfin · Apr 22, 2018

The issue of appliances catching fire is not a unique Samsung issue. My son's house burned down from a Bosch dishwasher. I believe the issue is PCBs that depend on the circuit breaker for overload protection, yet only draw milliamps, get some moisture on them, short circuit, and by the time the amperage draw is sufficient to trip the breaker because wires are melting, are already on fire, or so said the fire marshal.

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