No Discharge Zone in Puget Sound

In case you haven’t seen this.


https://ecology.wa.gov/Water-Shorelines/Puget-Sound/No-discharge-zone#recreation

Had to laugh at this bit;

Acceptable methods of securing the device include:

Closing the seacock and removing the handle;
Padlocking the seacock in the closed position;
Using a non-releasable wire-tie to hold the seacock in the closed position; or
Locking the door to the space enclosing the toilets with a padlock...

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Those with desiccating heads will just shrug

Will they require the whales, seals and other wildlife to use an 'approved sanitary device'?

Locking the door to the space enclosing the toilets with a padlock...

Apparently you missed "If you have a treatment MSD (Type I or Type II...) Locking the head door is only acceptable if the toilet is connected to one.
33 CFR 159.7 has the complete list of acceptable means of securing both systems with holding tanks and systems with treatment devices in all NDZs, not just Puget Sound.

Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein

FoxtrotCharlie said:

Will they require the whales, seals and other wildlife to use an 'approved sanitary device'?

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Why should they? Their emissions have been part of the ecosystem for millions of years. As has their food.

All I've got say about this is that I'm glad that Victoria, BC has "smart" effluent that recognizes international boundaries and won't cross over it. What I don't understand is why Type II MSD's aren't "good enough" to discharge treated sewage. Is there any level, other than zero, coliform count that is acceptable?

caltexflanc said:

Why should they? Their emissions have been part of the ecosystem for millions of years. As has their food.

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Just having a little fun. And I just renewed my Sierra Club membership - member since 1973

As I read it, it sounds like I may have to disable/lock both the valve going from the holding tank to the macerator as well as the valve that is at the thruhull discharge?

What I don't understand is why Type II MSD's aren't "good enough" to discharge treated sewage.

You can blame that on the environmental zealots...the mere mention of the word feces mobilizes 'em--and the politicians in left-leaning districts.

(Btw...you'd only need a Type II if you boat is 66'+...boats under that size can use a Type I)


Is there any level, other than zero, coliform count that is acceptable?

Not to them. In the mid-'90s US Representive Jim Saxton (R-NJ, now retired) tried for 5 consecutive years to get a bill through Congress that reduced the allowable bacteria count from their current standard of of 1,000/100 ml for Type I and 200/100 ml for Type II to a maximum of 10/100 ml for both types, and allow any vessel equipped with a device which meets that standard to use it even in NDZ water. The opposition from the enviro-zealot lobbies was so intense that none of his bills--which he kept revising to appease them--ever even made it out of committee. After 5 attempts, he gave up.

I've always considered it to be the ultimate irony that the very DAY that RI's statewide NDZ legislation went into effect, a massive sewage treatment plant spill in Providence closed all the beaches and shellfish beds in large portion of Narraganset Bay for a week.

I've been kinda hoping that when all the dust around the Trump administration finally settles, that all the ridiculous ND regulations will join the other regs on the chopping block!

Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein

dhays said:

As I read it, it sounds like I may have to disable/lock both the valve going from the holding tank to the macerator as well as the valve that is at the thruhull discharge?

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The seacock would be enough. However, if you run into a water cop with an advanced case of Barney Fife Syndrome, you might have a problem if you don't have any way to make it impossible for someone to "accidentally" start the macerator pump. It would likely be local one...99.9% of coasties are satisfied with obvious INTENT to comply with the law.

Peggie
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein

This is a load of CRAP!!! It would appear the State of Washington did NOT listen to its citizens and King County has another victory!

So is the State going to hold Seattle, Tacoma, Olympia and other cities along Puget Sound be held to the same standard? Is King County exempt?

I hope there is a law suit on this.

Meanwhile I will cross the boarder, pull the lever and let my essence float down to Washington........

We knew it was coming. Fortunately, the change only effects a relatively small number of recreational boats in Puget Sound. Unfortunately, it is a big hit to those boat owners. They invested a fair amount of money for a treatment system, but now they can’t use it in WA waters. For some of them it will be expensive to modify the boat to comply with the NDZ.

Don’t get me wrong, I think it is a really BAD idea. However, it will actually prove to be a boon for most of the boat owners on Puget Sound. Since the NDZ was coming, the state has increased the funding for development of pumpouts. Now they even fund a mobile pump-out service that will pump out your tank at your slip. I’ve not used it yet as I like to make sure my holding tank is rinsed well when pumped out.

So, the NDZ won’t help Puget Sound water quality a bit. It also won’t hurt most boaters at all. It has made pumpout facilities more available.

dhays said:

We knew it was coming. Fortunately, the change only effects a relatively small number of recreational boats in Puget Sound. Unfortunately, it is a big hit to those boat owners. They invested a fair amount of money for a treatment system, but now they can’t use it in WA waters. For some of them it will be expensive to modify the boat to comply with the NDZ...

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You're right Dave. From a recreational boater's stand point, the guys with the Elctrosan type systems are the ones that are stuck. All the other recreational boaters there's no change.

We had a 27' 1966 Chris Craft Commander, hull number 16 that we fully restored and sold. When we bought it, it had no approved MSD. We tried to figure out a holding tank system. We worked with Modutech Marine in Tacoma and at the end of the day, an Elctrosan system went in. There was really no place for a holding tank of any size period. The current owners are the ones I feel sorry for.

So I guess the key switch that controls my overboard pump is not sufficient to comply, even though it prevents discharge by way of a keyed lock, just like a lock on a thruhul valve?

Fortunately, the change only effects a relatively small number of recreational boats in Puget Sound. Unfortunately, it is a big hit to those boat owners. They invested a fair amount of money for a treatment system, but now they can’t use it in WA waters. For some of them it will be expensive to modify the boat to comply with the NDZ.

Fortunately it's ONLY the Sound, Lake Union and Lake Washington that are now an NDZ, not all WA waters. Treatment devices are still legal in Strait and the San Juans. However, the total number of boats nationwide that have 'em has never exceeded 5% of boats with toilets.

Btw...just discovered that WA hasn't even been added to the EPA list of NDZs yet.

Peggie

twistedtree said:

So I guess the key switch that controls my overboard pump is not sufficient to comply, even though it prevents discharge by way of a keyed lock, just like a lock on a thruhul valve?

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That most likely would be acceptable to any water cop who doesn't have BFS (Barnie Fife Syndrome), but a cable tie on your sea cock handle too would prob'ly be a good idea.

Peggie

HeadMistress said:

..Fortunately it's ONLY the Sound, Lake Union and Lake Washington that are now an NDZ, not all WA waters. Treatment devices are still legal in Strait and the San Juans...

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I’m not so sure it’s just Puget Sound. It looks like the San Juan’s are included as per the DOE’s web site quoted earlier.

https://ecology.wa.gov/Water-Shorelines/Puget-Sound/No-discharge-zone#recreation

The drawing makes look like it goes all the way to the border, but the description only makes everything east of the New Dungeness Light and the east end of the Strait an NDZ, no mention of any waters north of it...and the San Juans are just barely north of the Strait.

Plus, all the publicity about both attempts to make it happen never mentioned anything but the Sound and the two lakes. We'll need see what shows up in the EPA NDZ list.

(Drawing was prob'ly created by one of the Soundkeepers thugs...they were the driving force behind the whole thing.)

Further bad news... all holding tanks will require a wifi connection and dedicated facebook account for data collection. I would provide the link but I know Nobridge Analytica has already penetrated this site. :>0

This is really no news. As stated earlier recreational boats have been using holding tanks and pump outs for years. There are no water cops up here. The coast guard/home land security is the only authority that can board your boat and they have no budget for state law enforcement.

JustBob said:

Further bad news... all holding tanks will require a wifi connection and dedicated facebook account for data collection. I would provide the link but I know Nobridge Analytica has already penetrated this site. :>0

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So THAT'S where all the crap on facebook comes from.... my holding tank.

HeadMistress said:

Fortunately, the change only effects a relatively small number of recreational boats in Puget Sound. Unfortunately, it is a big hit to those boat owners. They invested a fair amount of money for a treatment system, but now they can’t use it in WA waters. For some of them it will be expensive to modify the boat to comply with the NDZ.

Fortunately it's ONLY the Sound, Lake Union and Lake Washington that are now an NDZ, not all WA waters. Treatment devices are still legal in Strait and the San Juans. However, the total number of boats nationwide that have 'em has never exceeded 5% of boats with toilets.

Btw...just discovered that WA hasn't even been added to the EPA list of NDZs yet.

Peggie

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Initially, I think they were looking at the San Juans and the Strait as well. Glad they elected not to. OTOH, I, like many of my fellow WA boaters, feel pretty free to discharge overboard once in the Strait on an outgoing tide.

Interesting that the NDZ has not been published... in my limited understanding you can’t have an NDZ unless the Feds designate it.

tiltrider1 said:

This is really no news. As stated earlier recreational boats have been using holding tanks and pump outs for years. There are no water cops up here. The coast guard/home land security is the only authority that can board your boat and they have no budget for state law enforcement.

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Not quite true I don’t think. Municipal and county police can board and enforce laws. I’ve been boarded by Olympia police and received citations for violations for state registration laws. (Very professional, helpful, polite, and I was completely in the wrong. I corrected the deficiency and Olympia reversed the citation.)

Also, if it is declared a NDZ then it is a federal regulation that the USCG is very happy to enforce when they do a routine boarding.

FWIW, I was boarded by the USCG on my way back from Canada and didn’t yet have my thru hulls secured. They kindly secured it for me and got on with business. As I’ve mentioned before, I’m a USCG fanboy.

Unfortunately, I think the San Juans ARE included. Verbatum from the WA law:

All the marine waters of Washington state inward from the line between New Dungeness Lighthouse (N 48°10'54.454", 123°06'37.004" W) and the Discovery Island Lighthouse (N 48°25'26.456", 123°13'29.554" W) to the Canadian border (intersecting at: N 48°20'05.782", 123°11'58.636" W), and fresh waters of Lake Washington, Lake Union, and connecting waters between and to Puget Sound.

That's everything until you cross the line out into the Strait of JDF.

That’s bullshit. Municipalities can dump millions of gallons of raw sewage into the sound with impunity every time there is a major storm or equipment malfunction. But a recreational vessel with a treatment system that pumps clean water overboard must now secure the system so it is inoperable? Why not fix the real polluters first? Wonder who has the bigger lobbyist budget?

twistedtree said:

Unfortunately, I think the San Juans ARE included. Verbatum from the WA law:

All the marine waters of Washington state inward from the line between New Dungeness Lighthouse (N 48°10'54.454", 123°06'37.004" W) and the Discovery Island Lighthouse (N 48°25'26.456", 123°13'29.554" W) to the Canadian border (intersecting at: N 48°20'05.782", 123°11'58.636" W), and fresh waters of Lake Washington, Lake Union, and connecting waters between and to Puget Sound.

That's everything until you cross the line out into the Strait of JDF.

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Sure looks that way to me as well. North to the CN border it says. That means the SJ's. I like the idea of just putting the valve in the closed position and taking off the handle. Simple.

A link to the Washington site https://ecology.wa.gov/DOE/files/9a/9a81141a-285c-4428-8201-13e742e558af.pdf

So, if I take off the handle, how can they tell if it's closed? Oh, Seattle did drop OVER a BILLION, YES BILLION GALLONS OF SEWAGE when the West Point Treatment Plant flooded in 2017. That is the equivalent of 50 Million of my 20 gallon holding tanks of crap.

Wondering ... what are the "poop" policies of the Canadian government?

I have the impression, correct me if I'm wrong, that Canadian pollution requirements (not just boats but industrial also) are less restrictive than the USA.

FoxtrotCharlie said:

Just having a little fun. And I just renewed my Sierra Club membership - member since 1973

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I gave up on Sierra Club when it became freaky in the late nineteen sixties when it abandoned its original mission (preserving and enjoying the Sierra Nevada mountain range) to limiting urban life.