Oil centrifuges for main engines

The purpose of this post is to start a separate thread on oil centrifuges for main engines, from those who have them and know about them, please.

In a separate TF thread others have recently mentioned this subject.

I once read a thread from a trawler charter company in the USA, NW Explorations, where the Director said he installed oil centrifuges on most of the charter fleet and subsequently saw significantly prolonged engine life. I have been intrigued about these ever since.

My CAT C7s turn the oil black very quickly after a full service (and that service happens every 200 hours or 12 months, whichever comes first). I NEVER want to have to replace those engines if I can help it, hence my interest in this topic.

Over here in Australia, my enquiries about oil centrifuges for engines of the C7 size (7 litre, in line 6, turbocharged) have met with a blank wall, so grateful for any thoughts about where to get them, cost, usefulness etc.

Thanks,

H.

I seen them used on navy ships but they are fairly large units.

Suggest you contact NW Explorations owner Brian Pemberton directly. Also, many vessels in this size range use a separate oil filter called bypass filtration.

Black or sooty oil is, as you've seen, being discussed in a separate thread. Cat runs a good oil analysis program, you may want to consider using that program to determine oil health whether for soot, heavy metals or other compounds.

Lastly, follow the Cat book for oil, filters and change intervals. The C7 series is far more sensitive to issues on the seawater side (after coolers) than any perils from black oil.

Hi,

Thanks both Senagsakali and Suchaser for your responses.

Yes, so far I have only found oil centrifuges for much larger displacement engines. I need to find something for 7 litres....

Sunchaser, re CAT oil program I do that and yes I agree, C7 Achilles heel was the aftercoolers. I have the subsequent modified coolers installed 6 years ago, and have just paid the dreaded fee to replace both (perfectly performing) aftercooler cores at 6 years as per CAT requirements! I am very alive to this real issue, which you correctly describe. Beyond the sensitive aftercoolers though, the C7s are actually great engines. Powerful, lightweight, and American after parts service. So I like them.

My question around centrifuges is about protecting them longer (assuming, of course, that I keep the aftercoolers good). I will drop Brian Pemberton an email as you suggest, and see how that goes.

Thanks both,

Hamish.

What type of centrifuges do you mean, Alfa Laval MIB303 - is that too big?

It can be used for both engine oil and diesel fuel subject to the density of the oil...

BTW I drain from the sump plug .If you drain from the dipstick there is a good chance all the crud is left with the last 1 to 2 liters of oil .

gaston said:

BTW I drain from the sump plug .If you drain from the dipstick there is a good chance all the crud is left with the last 1 to 2 liters of oil .

Click to expand...

Gaston
You raise a good point. I do drain from the bottom but there's always that last liter or two. What I do to partially mitigate is to dump in another two liters of fresh and re- empty..

These are common on OTR (18wheel) trucks.

About $700 each plus install.

Only hassle is they are slow , so driving 5-10 hours a day is fine , stop and go , an hour at a time, not so good.

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Dec 13, 2014 - 10 posts - ‎8 authors
It has larger soot particulates that are interfering with the oil ring effectively sealing the oil from getting in the combustion chamber on a piston stroke. By getting the larger soot particles out of the oil via a bypass filter or centrifuge like the Spinner II, oil consumption follows a fairly predictable and consistent ...

I use one of these: high speed WVO centrifuges, Algae centrifuge, Oil Centrifuge, oil transfer pumps and drum heaters. - US Filtermaxx

I have been running clean oil since the 1960s. Originally I used bypass filters. Probably at least 7-8 brands. Some are better than others. None deal with the smaller soot particles. Going to a centrifuge made all the difference.
The real life killer for engines is sleeve or cylinder wear. Bearings with proper oil changes way outlast sleeves and rings. I've rebuild many engines - in the hundreds. So I've seen the wear in old engines and new ones that failed for some other reason.
I've found clean oil can more than double expected engine life. Along with keeping your exhaust gas temperatures under control.
In tugs and commercial fishing vessels I would get about twice the life out of Detroits, Cats and Cummings engines as other people did with the same model. Maybe 4 times more than hotrod operators. This is with engines of 200 to 3000 hp.
In my current boat I added a oil drain plumbing system. The mains and generators all can be pumped to a central tank and from there to the centrifuge. The centrifuge either drains to a sump, then to a clean tank or to an oil pitcher and hand dispersed to the engines. I originally kept each engines oil separate, but after a couple years testing oil decided to run it all together.
The faster the rpm of the centrifuge and the slower the oil is flowed, the more debris and water is removed. If I want, I can make my oil look brand new. After about 25 hours, and as much as 50, I open all the drains of engines with hot oil, turn on the pump and send all the used oil to the dirty tank. The tank has a heating element to keep the tank at 180°F. Hot oil cleans much better. I close all the tank openings and apply about 3psi air pressure to push the oil to the centrifuge. A gear pump can cause cavitation in the oil and makes cleaning harder. I set the flow and either let it go to the sump or use the pitcher to redistribute the oil. It takes me about 30 minutes from start to finish. If I have other things to do I let the centrifuge run and drain to the clean tank. I shut off the tank heater start the flow and run the centrifuge on a timer. The centrifuge can run indefinitely so if it runs 20 minutes after the flow stops, no harm. When the centrifuge stops, the sludge drains to a plastic milk jug I turn in at an used oil collector.
The other savings is buying new oil and filters. I haven't discarded oil since 2011. I just add to maintain oil levels and replenish additives. I get my oil samples at the dirty oil tank that is a mix of 4 engines and sometimes my pickup. I originally sent centrifuged oil, but found it was pointless to test. I change the filters at about double the normal interval. I always cut the filters open because It's the only time I can see debris from a single engine. They're very clean for the run time. I mostly change for the water they collect.
Sleeves/cylinders wear quickly when the crosshatching is mostly worn away. New sleeves are honed at very slow speed with a rapid up and down movement to put in surface scratches at about 45°. This allows the rings to carry small amounts of lube oil to the upper parts of the sleeve. When the crosshatching is worn away, no more lube oil, no more tight rings. Many years ago I used to tear down engines and re-crosshatched the sleeves and generally doubled the engine life. Even with the same rings if done early enough. By the clean oil is easier. Pic is Detroit sleeves with crosshatching.

I too am a big fan of bypass filtration and oil centrifuges.

I especially love fine micron filters with synthetic oil on my gensets.

But then on the boats I run we might be on genset for a week or more at a time.

You need to weight the cost of the equipment and installation agains how you actually use and how much you use your gensets and main engines.

Lepke: what would it cost to install a system like that ?

Benthic2 said:

Lepke: what would it cost to install a system like that ?

Click to expand...

And what's the space requirement?

L

Doesn't it make sense, why not just change the oil. We used D'laval purifiers on turbine oil in the navy but it wasn't in an combustion process. This looks like one of these neat ideas that you need to step back and say "what am I gaining here.

I don't doubt it works but question the cost and space requirements for the majority of us at ~ 200 hours yearly or with the typical 100 to 200 hp engine.
Use a good oil, change the filters , take an oil sample.

For a commercial operation, or a real roamer, maybe it makes sense especially if that operation takes you away from service areas for long time periods.

If you want to check cost just contact some of the vendors Fast Fred posted. At the same time get a brochure downloaded which should give some dimensions. Some of these things are quite large, both physically and $$ wise.

Lepke, I admire your system to be clear. Sounds like you have put a lot of thought and effort into it.

I haven't done anything that extensive but I have done a couple things just because I could and because I got the parts for next to nothing.

There are a few suppliers of oil centrifuges in India. I gather they use them on most all of their ag equipment, so would be sized right for most marine applications. I looked at one that ran at 7,000 rpm, self powered from oil pressure that would have handled my 3306, and from memory it was only a few hundred $. Unfortunately, I can't recall the manufacturer, sorry.

I did install a Purodyn bypass filter that is supposed to filter down to 1 micron. I change that filter and the OEM filter and oil each year or 250 hours. If you remove particles that are smaller than the tolerances of the main bearings (around 12 microns?) I'm not sure what additional benefit you might receive from oil that is cleaner than that attained with a bypass filter other than having cleaner appearing oil.

I admire what you want to do, but had the same thoughts as others as to the practicality for small boat engines so I was curious what feedback you would get. I did PMs on these years ago for oil systems, and they work well, but I just don’t see the payback for the $, hassle, and space required. IE, I would bet your engines will outlive you if you take care of them as you described and continual oil changes. Anyway, good luck whatever you decide.

Centrifuges that run off oil pressure bleed off a good bit of flow from your engine's gallery. You don't want to draw that much flow off unless engine is designed for it. Especially if there are piston oil cooling jets which count on reserve flow capacity.

Ski in NC said:

Centrifuges that run off oil pressure bleed off a good bit of flow from your engine's gallery. You don't want to draw that much flow off unless engine is designed for it. Especially if there are piston oil cooling jets which count on reserve flow capacity.

Click to expand...

No free lunch.

You might get away with this loss at higher RPM, not sure I would want to idle the engine this way.

Ted

Changing oil is fine , and I am yet to hear of a worn out engine from "too clean oil".

After the first hour the clean oil, isn't clean ,so the concept of constantly having clean oil does have appeal.

The question then becomes 200 hours a year , a modest engine should go 6000+ hours , that's a lot of years!!!

Perhaps cutting in half the oil change interval might come as close to always cleanish oil might get to get 8,000 hours ?

If some of the new experimental engines actually pan out , after 30 or 40 years installing a 70 hp more efficient diesel that weighs 40 lbs might not be bad.

Benthic2 said:

Lepke: what would it cost to install a system like that ?

Click to expand...

The centrifuge is about $2000. Each engine has a short length of flexible, oil resistant hose with a valve I can lock closed. Then the plumbing is copper water pipe connected to an Oberdorfer gear pump. I had the pump and air controls w/compressors so that part existed. I have a walk in engineroom, and more room than most boats. The dirty oil tank existed as a new oil tank with a deck fill. I just added valves to close it off. The clean oil tank I got used for free. So I had less than 2Gs for the centrifuge, maybe $300 in plumbing, valves, some extra air line and made up hoses for 2 generators & 2 mains. A couple days to run the plumbing. The engines together hold about 15+ gallons, so 2 20 gallon tanks. A tiny 12v compressor would supply more air than needed. I had a compact washer & dryer in the engineroom I moved and it all fits in a 5'x2' space. An old water heater will work for a tank and it comes with a element and controls (but element has to be below the oil level). Also an out of date propane tank works and sometimes come free at a gas supplier, but needs some fittings welded in. Ready made hydraulic tanks work best and any farm or industrial supply would have them.
The oil I use costs about $85/5 gallons but was $110 when I started. I save at least $255 a year on oil w/o filters so I broke even a year or 2 ago. Not counting reduced engine wear. Some years I do more than 500 hours on the mains. That would be at least 2 oil changes.

A used oil tank is really nice.

Most folks have 5 gal buckets the fresh oil was delivered in to drag up the dock..

How do you locate a facility that has the ability ./ desire to empty the waste oil tank?

A centrifuge can only remove contaminants from oil, but will do nothing for chemical changes that oil experiences under the heat of normal operation.
Oil does break down over time, and additives are lost.
One of the biggest factors contributing to rapid blackening of oil is poor sump draining, which a centrifuge does not address.
For the 12 quarts and a filter that my rig takes, I’m very happy to know that the oil is fresh and up to specs with my 200 hr oil changes.

"Oil does break down over time, and additives are lost."

This is the argument of the paper towel filter folks , new oil brings the required additives when the filter is changed..

I have just installed scintex centrifuges - around $ 360.00 AUD each - on my 5.9 turbo engines. Very impressed.

tim....can you provide supplier details for scintex pls?