Chinese/American engines

I see discussions about Chinese engines and parts. Much of what we think of as US or western made is actually made elsewhere. 20 to 30 years ago only the very big tractors and combines were US made. John Deere - small tractors, engines not from here. For years many of the internal engine parts were made in China or elsewhere and the engines assembled here. Many of the parts for my Detroit Diesels were made in China.
A case in point: https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...271j.11219443/en_US.je3svtcx.8.20b638a1wZWDby

Chinese vs American

I am not of the school that feels Chinese quality is always inferior or has to be. The capabilities on many products is the same or better. In fact, in some industries, the Chinese have adopted technology more rapidly.

However....and this is a big one and a but...

A lot of production is moved to China for one and only one reason, to reduce costs. In doing so, other aspects of production, especially quality, might not be adequately watched and managed. When price is the only factor of concern then shortcuts are taken.

Wherever production is it comes down to properly managing manufacturing and quality. It can be done anywhere. When I've used contractors, I've always had quality managers travel to their facilities regularly. If we were doing enough work there, then someone on site full time. That's easy to do if the facility is 20 miles from your headquarters. Companies often don't do it as they should when manufacturing is offshore.

Just adding that the only manufacturing I am involved with today is 100% manufactured in the US, but some of the fabric is from around the world. However, I won't say that the same quality isn't possible in China. I will say most apparel manufacturing facilities in China aren't achieving it today. Some are. Some in the US aren't either.

I am of an age (57) that I remember when “Made in Japan” used to mean cheap.

China is just getting their legs under themselves. It’s going to get interesting...

BandB said:

However....and this is a big one and a but...

A lot of production is moved to China for one and only one reason, to reduce costs. In doing so, other aspects of production, especially quality, might not be adequately watched and managed. When price is the only factor of concern then shortcuts are taken

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I'll point out that just because something is american made is no guarantee of quality.
Many of your cars sent around the globe are shitboxes.


Here's but one example


Most number of recalls in a calendar year. The unwanted record Jeep now owns

Jeep recalls: Manufacturer breaks record for most recalls in a year

Simi 60 said:

I'll point out that just because something is american made is no guarantee of quality.
Many of your cars sent around the globe are shitboxes.

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Very true. There is no country that has quality cornered.

MurrayM said:

I am of an age (57) that I remember when “Made in Japan” used to mean cheap.

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And then it was Korea
People used to bag Hyundai, possibly one of the more reliable builds around

China is just getting their legs under themselves. It’s going to get interesting...

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Yep

Simi 60 said:

I'll point out that just because something is american made is no guarantee of quality.
Many of your cars sent around the globe are shitboxes.


Here's but one example


Most number of recalls in a calendar year. The unwanted record Jeep now owns

Jeep recalls: Manufacturer breaks record for most recalls in a year

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That’s because Jeep is mfg. by Fiat-Chrysler. Yikes.

This would never happen if they were still made by Willys. The were made of metal then.

dhmeissner said:

That’s because Jeep is mfg. by Fiat-Chrysler. Yikes.

This would never happen if they were still made by Willys. The were made of metal then.

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Am I mistaken to say China is interested in acquiring Jeep? Thought I had read this recently.

China can supply whatever the customer wants. Top quality gear at a good price, or cut price goods that look like the real thing.

Most buyers ordering from China prefer the latter.

Simi 60 said:

And then it was Korea
People used to bag Hyundai, possibly one of the more reliable builds around


Yep

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Different business model between Korea and China.
Korea was to compete and better Japan.
China wants to keep hands busy.

B&B had good explanation above. i'll add that the only part missing is that the Chinese routinely bid on jobs that are impossible for them to make money at that price using that process. So what goes by the wayside is the process.
Leaving the foreign company that got the bright idea to outsource it in the first place between a rock and a hard place.

All of China's neighbors know the deal. And they have had military conflicts with virtually every country on their border.

And I would add that Chinese manufacturers also lack the ethics to do it right. I am sure that many remember the Rocna story. They outsourced manufacturing of their anchors to a Chinese company and specified a specific grade of steel. Well some anchors failed and it was discovered that the steel was not to spec.

Now blame the Chinese for cutting corners, but also blame Rocna for not checking. It takes both.

The fiasco ruined Rocna and they had to sell out to a Canadian company as I recall.

David

Four things:

-- Would those who own trawlers made in China please raise their hand.
-- Compare build quality and design of a Fleming, KK or Nordhavn to certain vessels made in France or US.
-- What brands of diesels and gensets commonly used for boats are assembled in China today?
-- How many enjoy their Apple products?

It does get confusing.

From my experience in the electronics industry where virtually everything is made in China, and building a boat that was made in China, you get what you specify, monitor, and inspect. If you leave things to their discretion, you are likely to be disappointed. And it's not because they are bad people. They are just operating under a very different norm for what's acceptable and what's not. Some things they do spectacularly well. Take interior woodwork, for example. But other things like equipment installation, you need to show them every step, and provide a lot of guidance about what not the do, and why. And once they know how to do something, they are off and running. It's no different than teaching anyone how to do something for the first time.

But unlike Japan, there isn't an inherent OCD culture that seems to drive perfectionists.

djmarchand said:

And I would add that Chinese manufacturers also lack the ethics to do it right.

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Much too much generalization. Some Chinese companies lack ethics and some have good ethics. Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks. As someone living in the US, we've got more than our share of companies and business persons who lack ethics.

Lots of generalizations here. Not all Chinese companies build cheap knock offs. Following Sunchasers thought, Choey Lee is a 120 year old wholly owned Chinese company that builds a superior product without overseas supervision and their ethics have never been challenged to my knowledge. They have been known to be innovative. They are not cheap but might be considered competitive in the market they have chosen. You don’t remain well established for 120 years unless you are true to your word, build a good product and keep the price competitive.
Think about how many manufacturing companies you know that are operated by the same family continuously for over a hundred years. Not too many in the whole world.

There are good and bad products manufactured in every country in the world. One wonders how Fiat ever became such a powerhouse considering the crap they have been building for decades. Other great gold standard companies such as Rolls Royce have had many engineering failures in the last decades. One cannot take country of origin as a standard of quality. Look at the product and it’s history. We live in a global economy. Personally, I like Apple products. I think they are well made, solidly engineered. Will the quality remain as high when they move manufacturing to the USA? I imagine there will be a few trips before they gain solid ground but we shall see.

To circle back to the OP, I would not be afraid of a Chinese built engine as long as I knew the history of the manufacturer and understood their business model.

Lots of variance in a population of 1.3 billion

twistedtree said:

Take interior woodwork, for example. But other things like equipment installation, you need to show them every step, and provide a lot of guidance about what not the do, and why. And once they know how to do something, they are off and running. It's no different than teaching anyone how to do something for the first time.

.

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A couple of cases I'll cite to show how the issue is everywhere.

Trinity Yachts at their best built top quality, excellent in all regards. At their worst, during the bad economic time when they had people laid off, were grabbing what labor they could get, were a total mess, there was at least one buyer who took delivery and immediately took it to Rybovich for months to get everything corrected.

I remember talking to a plant manager in Jamaica where we got excellent quality production about the start up of that sewing plant. He said it wasn't just the job tasks but so many things we take for granted that had to be taught. Many were totally unfamiliar with sewing machines but with other basic items. One he pointed out was toilets. They didn't have flushable toilets in their homes. It was simple but new and different.

Many of the older members here have lamented about what younger don't do. Include me. I never changed a tire until I had a flat at 26 in rain on the interstate. My wife has never changed one. Neither of us has changed the oil in a car.

Now, a very common one I see today. People who grow up in most countries, certainly Asia, the Caribbean, etc. all know how to cook. Something like 30% of Americans don't know how to cook. Now, my wife and I do but definitely not the fancy meals many of you prepare. We actually surveyed our employees who are largely younger and 35% never cooked full meals, nothing more than frozen or microwave or a bowl of cold cereal. The survey was actually done as part of our courses in financial management and as part of showing them how much they could save if they didn't eat out all the time. Our COO and close friend is 29 years old, has never cooked a meal, and no one has ever cooked a meal in her condo and she has no plans to change. We have a good friend who is 53 and has never cooked a meal. Don't blame it on the US though as she was born and grew up in Spain. They had a chef, her mother never cooked either.

The point is that people everywhere lack what others may consider basic skills. It's simply what you've been taught.

McGillicuddy said:

To circle back to the OP, I would not be afraid of a Chinese built engine as long as I knew the history of the manufacturer and understood their business model.

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Just FYI, Lepke is a die-hard Detroit fan, but this has been a good thread.

I have given serious consideration to a Weichai and have still not ruled it out, although I'm leaning more towards a Chinese Cummins.

Many well known names have Chinese Factories or have licensed and supervised Factories. Quality Control does not go away in these situations. Cummins and LaFrance Fire are two that pop up in my mind,

As has been said quality control is the key in production and everyday norms definitely play a part in the production.

Personally for long life big diesels (minimum a million miles) I'm a Mercedes fan.
Apologies for the photo's if they offend.


My last Mercedes E250 diesel car gave up the ghost after nearly 20 yrs (the electrics went to hell) and I'm hoping my current E320 diesel will give similar service

On our boats I've used the faithful Perkins for over 40 years and hand on heart we never had a breakdown that was the fault of the engine.
Other than routine servicing the only mods I've made is to change the fuel filter to a 'spin on' type with built in primer and replace the wire gauze air cleaner for a paper element and re-route it away from the engine to reduce engine noise by 20%.

Lepke is a die hard Detroit fan and I am a die hard Yanmar fan. But I am making do with Cats as that is what the boat came with. [emoji848]
But you can’t beat the price on these Chinese Cummins. Wow, that is definitely cheap. I wonder what the extras are?

I've a friend who was hired by a boatbuilder based in Taiwan who was expanding their boatbuilding to mainland China, to go there and train a crew of workers. A couple of his observations were that on mainland China they don't even understand what recreational boating is or why anyone would want to do it. So they have no understanding on why anything should be a certain way, like why put caulking under fittings, or sand a hull fair, or connect wiring to the correct terminals, any number of things. Also the workers are just looking to get a paycheck the easiest way possible, if they're not happy they just don't show up. In countries with established boatbuilding industries the workers tend to stay in the industry, moving from one builder to another, so they bring some knowledge with them. In China if a worker wasn't happy he'd just walk down to the next factory hiring, they could be making luggage, they don't care it's a paycheck. All this results in having to have a crazy amount of vigilance from the trained managers to ensure things are done correctly, but you turn your back, or go to lunch they'll go back to doing it the easy way. Even the experienced Taiwan builder that hired my friend finally gave up on the mainland expansion plans because they couldn't control quality and closed that facility.

sunchaser said:

Four things:

-- Would those who own trawlers made in China please raise their hand.
-- Compare build quality and design of a Fleming, KK or Nordhavn to certain vessels made in France or US.
-- What brands of diesels and gensets commonly used for boats are assembled in China today?
-- How many enjoy their Apple products?

It does get confusing.

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My North Pacific was built in China. It has a Cummins engine however.

dhays said:

My North Pacific was built in China. It has a Cummins engine however.

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Curious. Do you know where your Cummins engine was built? Do you care? All the engine companies have factories worldwide and I never think of where they were built.

BandB said:

Curious. Do you know where your Cummins engine was built? Do you care? All the engine companies have factories worldwide and I never think of where they were built.

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Don’t know, and don’t care. I don’t know where the original engine was built and I don’t know where my new engine was built either.

BTW, I got a call from Cummins Northwest a couple weeks ago just checking in and making sure the new engine was performing well. It is.

dhays said:

Don’t know, and don’t care. I don’t know where the original engine was built and I don’t know where my new engine was built either.

BTW, I got a call from Cummins Northwest a couple weeks ago just checking in and making sure the new engine was performing well. It is.

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I very much care about service availability but don't care at all where the engine was built. You've really gotten superb service from Cummins NW and that's what is important.

BandB said:

I very much care about service availability but don't care at all where the engine was built. You've really gotten superb service from Cummins NW and that's what is important.

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Yup, that is my attitude as well. They have stood by the engine and Cummins can be serviced most anywhere I’m likely to be.

dhays said:

Yup, that is my attitude as well. They have stood by the engine and Cummins can be serviced most anywhere I’m likely to be.

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One of the primary reasons I chose Cummins.

Fletcher500 said:

One of the primary reasons I chose Cummins.

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And do you know or care where yours were manufactured?

"And do you know or care where yours were manufactured?"

The first world factories have higher labor costs so usually are willing to pay to automate as much of the construction/assembally as they can.

The bonus to the purchaser is the engine parts selection is greatly aided by their computers.

Knowing a dozen measure points on 5000 pistons allows the cylinder match to be far better than just random selection.

Same for all parts that should match to have smoothest operating engine.

In the past for a good engine a tech would match parts for size and weight , now its automatic.

For decades engines were simply assembled , same process as in 3rd world countrys today.

They ran OK , tho some ran lots worse and some lots better.

Today with more automation a far more refined product is created , with fewer lemons.

With 2-4 GPH needed for most displacement cruisers having great reliability at perhaps 30-70 HP

,A useful engine is possible, regardless of the nation that creates it or assembly skills .

If you need 2 or 4, 1100hp engines to get 40K from your 60 ft toy, first world assembly is desired.