RPM Auto-off for Hydraulic Pump

Hi All,
I occasionally forget to switch off my bow thruster after departing and hate that it runs fairly silently, not to mention I think I might have a small leak.
Has anyone come up with a way to switch off a hydraulic pump at a certain RPM?
It’s a brand new JD6068 and new Sidepower controller.
And yes I still want to fix that leak

Arthurc said:

Hi All,
I occasionally forget to switch off my bow thruster after departing and hate that it runs fairly silently, not to mention I think I might have a small leak.
Has anyone come up with a way to switch off a hydraulic pump at a certain RPM?
It’s a brand new JD6068 and new Sidepower controller.
And yes I still want to fix that leak

Click to expand...

Does your on engine hydraulic pump run stabilizers? I have, as do most, an electric solenoid controlled on-off valve located in the hydraulic system that is part of the Wesmar system..

Yeah, I have one pump for stabilizers and one for bow thruster, the bow thruster is on an electric clutch pto, so it’s easy to signal it off, I just don’t know of a creative solution to do it at or above an RPM, basically it would just need to kill the power to the clutch above 1000rpm.

They make exactly what I’m looking for designed for car engines, but can’t find one for diesel.
http://www.jegs.com/i/MSD/121/8950/...ta2GPrRubFdxMniZslHb6gfJchEZ__1xoCnloQAvD_BwE

AC

Hmm, I wonder if this would work on my JD6068? I think this would give me a standard tach output I could then use the MSD switch with. Although I’m guessing common rail could not be compatible..
MSD Ignition 8918: Tach Signal GMR Pickup Universal | JEGS

I have a bright red light on my dash that tells me the hydraulic pump in powered up.

Conall

Conall63 said:

I have a bright red light on my dash that tells me the hydraulic pump in powered up. Conall

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As do I. It is on the panel for the Wesmar stabilizers. The panel is activated by a 12V breaker.

AC, would not an on off switch work? Yes you'd have to activate it manually, but on an electric thruster there is an off switch too with relevant lights.

A wind up timer 1 or 2 hours can open the DC circuit as desired.

They can easily be reset if you guessed docking would tale less time than it was set for.

These timers are also great for propane ranges/ovens , as a fail safe.

I have a dim yellow light as part of the sidepower controls and both the electric stern thruster and hydraulic bow thruster are activated by turning on the sidepower controller. Pulling the signal off it’s light might be easy but I was actually thinking doing an RPM interupt at the pto would be easier and more of a failsafe.
It looks like the msd gmr pickup may work as it works on common rail car engines. Going to call msd Monday and see if they know.

Arthurc said:

Pulling the signal off it’s light might be easy but I was actually thinking doing an RPM interupt at the pto would be easier and more of a failsafe.

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But then pulling into a tight channel, you lower the engine rpm, and then the bow thruster has an uncommanded turn on?

diver dave said:

But then pulling into a tight channel, you lower the engine rpm, and then the bow thruster has an uncommanded turn on?

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It would only turn on if the thruster controls were on. But with the new JD other than a bit noisier it wouldn’t affect you. I actually turn on the thruster controls in tight passageways anyways (like the locks and bridges in lake union Seattle) as they allow me to move sideways while waiting for the bridges to allow others to go. For something like a narrows I don’t see a downside if I had inadvertently left the thruster controls on.

OK, I understand. You want to auto control the hydraulic pump, not the thrusters. The thrusters have a spring return to OFF?

Think an intermittent piezo buzzer behind the dash to muffle some of the sound would be my solution. Easy enough to make the sound tolerable between adjusting the supply voltage with a potentiometer and maybe a little foam rubber.

Ted

diver dave said:

OK, I understand. You want to auto control the hydraulic pump, not the thrusters. The thrusters have a spring return to OFF?

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What do you mean by a print return to off? I’m assuming you mean on power reset, etc they revert to off? If so yes, they are fully electronic controls now. They don’t however have a timer, etc.

I can think of two approaches.

One would be to use a timer, so when you activate the thrusters, the pump stays of for a pre-set time. My previous side power electric thruster controls had such a feature built in. You would activate them with two button presses, and they would automatically shut down after some inactivity time. If your control has such a thing for the electric thruster, maybe it could also be used for the pump? If not, an timer relay could do the trick. Once triggered, they stay closed for a set time. You might be able to tie it to the thruster control so it re-triggers on use to prevent it from timing out while in use.

Another way would be to use your maretron system. You could set an alarm to go off if the thruster is on for more than some amount of time. It coudl also be triggered on exceeding an RPM, like you envision. That alarm could alert you, or it can also probably activate an output to disengage the clutch. If you have the control modules already, this could be cheap and easy, but it you have to buy control modules, the cost will depend on what else you might use those modules for.

Really good idea on the Maretron, ill look into that, I just setup a bunch of other alarms in the system yesterday. I want to avoid the timer as I do spend a bunch of time in the lake wa cut waiting for bridges etc. between Maretron and the one I posted earlier I should be able to find a solution. Will post back once I do.

twistedtree said:

Another way would be to use your maretron system. You could set an alarm to go off if the thruster is on for more than some amount of time. It coudl also be triggered on exceeding an RPM, like you envision. That alarm could alert you, or it can also probably activate an output to disengage the clutch. If you have the control modules already, this could be cheap and easy, but it you have to buy control modules, the cost will depend on what else you might use those modules for.

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I just spent some time looking into the maretron option, unless I am missing something they don’t have the ability to control the DCR100 (relay box) based on another nmea signal using an alert. My DCM410 display can use it as an alarm but that won’t exactly work for my needs, or perhaps it will...
I might have missed it however if there is a way to do it, controlling as a switch, it would be a really clean solution. One creative alarm based solution would be to set an alarm for 200-1000rpm on the DCM that would trigger the DCR to send out a continuous alarm (power on). So basically in an alarm state the thruster would come on. The only issue is you fail open so on failure of that system no thruster.

I was going to have a manual override switch anyways Incase the nmea network crashes or there is some other issue do this might work. The DCR does seem like a handy thing to have in the system.

From an expert friend of ours.....

"Rather than use engine rpm a simple delay relay on the clutch power supply will do the job. The truth table on this page:

https://www.mouser.com/ds/2/357/105A_TDRSRX_TDRSOX-1641.pdf

shows the variety of control options. I would use one that resets the relay timer each time the thruster is powered. If the thruster is not used in the time period desired the timer opens the clutch circuit. When the thruster control is moved again later the timer is reset and the clutch is engaged. Simple and effective."

Interesting idea! Thanks!

I have a Dickson hydraulic stern thruster and I would not want it to time out.
On several occasions while waiting for locks, bridges, and even a few times while trying to navigate a narrow channel behind a sailor who's wing and wing against the current, I've had my thruster going (on and off) for close to an hour at times.
It would suck to have to watch the clock.
Plus my control panel is right next to the throttle/shifter. I always know if it has power.

After talking to a number of folks I’m going to try and go down the Maretron route. I think I timer could lead to problems in the future or with other captains plus won’t prevebt you from running wide open with the hydraulics still engaged.
If the DCR100 doesn’t work that’s ok, it sounds like a handy thing to have as I can use it for other relay or alarm needs.
AC

I belive Ricks suggestion was for a timer that shut off the clutch...it didnt orevent you from using it whenever you needed it.

Definitely a timer. That's how the bow thruster worked on the canal barge we rented. Just touch the button (relay) to reenergize the circuits when you need it, otherwise timed to off if not touched. Must be a common device, all of the canal boats in this company had them.

I'm pretty sure his electric thruster already does exactly that. All the Sidepower controls I've used have and inactivity timer. Per my earlier suggest, if there were a way to tap into that for the hydraulic pump control, then both thrusters would enable/disable together, and have the same inactivity timer. Not sure if it's possible, though.

I have something (alert vs disengagement) setup via my PLC. It helps a lot! Alarms like hell over 1000 rpms.

Hi Arthurc
Best way is to arrange system according to axial piston load sensing pump with oil water cooler.Pump can be set at 1100-1200 rpm for regulation and not effected either on more flow .Actually load sensing hydraulic is ready whenever operation needed.It is in stand by remainder.Contact local hydraulic firms.

ezberci said:

Hi Arthurc
Best way is to arrange system according to axial piston load sensing pump with oil water cooler.Pump can be set at 1100-1200 rpm for regulation and not effected either on more flow .Actually load sensing hydraulic is ready whenever operation needed.It is in stand by remainder.Contact local hydraulic firms.

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If I'm following what you are saying, I think you have a good point.

Arthurc, do you know if the pump in question is fixed displacement, or variable displacement? If variable displacement, then it is likely not pumping any oil when there is no call for thruster power, and hence using very little power. That may change how motivated you are to optimize when it's on and when it's off.

I’m fairly certain it’s fixed displacement. On my list is to redo the hydraulics to the bow thruster but for now it looks like the DCR100 will work and I wanted one anyways for alarms/etc. I setup and tested it turning a relay on between 600 and 1000, worked like a charm. Now I just need to wire it in.