Insurance Non-Renewal

Sorry, I am confused. Your total premium is $900? What kind of boat do you have?

Mike Lowthian said:

Sorry, I am confused. Your total premium is $900? What kind of boat do you have?

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Bayliner 3870.

pretty impressive ... my insurance is with New Hampshire/AIG and double that....

for a $50,000 boat, clean record (40 years of no claims) and the liability is cheap.

and thats with as high a safety rating as you can get discounts for.

liveaboard jumped it a few hundred, but double the premium seems a lot.

Martin J said:

Panteneius have developed a bad reputation for avoiding claims in the wake of Hurricane irma , Particularly in the BVI's. As such the people in the boatyard I was in are forming a class suite against them. Would not touch them or there parent (Geman) company with a barge pole.

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We had a severe east coast low here a couple of years back.I heard Pantaenius sent owners of boats on swing moorings an SMS saying to go out and check their moorings. There was 35 knots of wind and driving rain, not something I`d want to do in a rowing dinghy, which is what most insureds would use.

Wish mine was only $900. I pay close to $2 boat dollars a year. However, I can cruise the entire west coast from San Diego to Cape Spencer, Alaska out 60nm in the summer and 20nm in the winter.

Any one with BoatUS experience? In my search, they came up with a decent quote, no haulout survey (mine is 3 yo, with an in-water survey last year). Looks like Geico underwrites them. 2-3 years ago, they wouldn't touch me. Go figure.

As an aside, huge legal battles have been waged on the basis that insurers are supposed to write the risk they percieve - not "catchup" for to recoup prior losses. Battalions of lawyers argue what's percieved risk (with experience) versus actuarial risk. And, of course, there's the FYTW factor.

We have BOAT/US. Have had our insurance with them for 30 some years. No problems. Had one claim and they took care of it immediately.

Does US law compel disclosure of factors negatively affecting the risk, which the proposer knows but the insurer does not? A good example is proposing house fire insurance with a forest fire approaching the house.
In some cases the insurer`s questions can`t cover everything, hence the duty of disclosure rests with the proposer here by virtue of legislation. Non disclosure can affect or negate cover.
As covered earlier,a refusal to grant or continue cover needs disclosing. Fortunately insurers often know if another insurer is refusing a particular class of cover, and may be more understanding than expected.

Yes. 1986 Bayliner 38. Twin diesel. Geico hull value $35k New quote $40k. No claims, bought 2.5 years ago with basically no prior provable experience. Have had and do have a few trailer boats. Was trying to jump to a Hatt 58, but insurance feelers wanted captains and a premium price. So we started with this. Thought about just liability as there is no note (nice to buy a cheaper boat) as I have had liability on cars worth more, but at the beginning of this venture it worth the peace of mind. Try hitting the wife up on 2 shafts and 2 props b/c of a mistake!

I did a self survey (read boat price) and do all maint and repairs myself so Boat US was perfect with no survey. Wrote check, drove home.... And did no other quotes when I heard no survey. But the increase I got was due to the Geico merger not storms. Which was irritating.

But the best thing about my searching with a broker (i guess). Was the extended cruising area. Boat US wanted $3200/yr for down to Florida not even Bahamas. This may have been all year, but I'm in NC during the season. Plus I couldn't even go out in the ocean to go fishing. Scary part was this summer I went about 40 miles south of my limit (not knowing) and was uninsured for a week!

This is not to say all people will be the same. You can look on a map and Washington, NC is about as safe as you can get here in NC so that may play the price. Also consider the boat to what you are. There are fellas and ladies here that have high $$$ boats that live in Fl. They are the ones with the deep pockets!

Thanks, Comodave. Good to hear. BoatUS was pretty straight up. Several quotes I've gotten include "stand on your left foot, extend both arms, and holler OdeyOdeyDooDah" to be considered for the privelege of sending $ with them. I'm in a perceived high risk business - my broker handles entities like structural engineers, hazmat response, and OB/GYNS - I'm amazed at the BS "boat" introduces to the subject.

Ten people can go to a group of insurers and have ten different experiences. You have to find the one that fits your needs. We're through Lloyd's largely because we don't want to deal with cruising areas or hurricane area issues or any other details, we just want the boat insured wherever and whenever we want to use it.

Insurance premiums these days have almost as much to do with your credit score than your actual risk.

Tom.B said:

Insurance premiums these days have almost as much to do with your credit score than your actual risk.

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As does being accepted or turned down. So many factors. After a period of large payouts (on top of the hurricanes this year, don't overlook the fires) there's a lot of pressure inside insurers to examine exposure and reevaluate risk. Things that might not have been emphasized last year, may be this year.

BandB said:

Ten people can go to a group of insurers and have ten different experiences.

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BandB said:

Ten people can go to a group of insurers and have ten different experiences.

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Truth. Consistency does not seem to be a characteristic of the industry.

Group9 said:

Truth. Consistency does not seem to be a characteristic of the industry.

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Now, there's not some individual sitting there reviewing all the things I'm about to list, but between systems and data and people, here's something like the scenario may go when you apply.

Let's see. Where are they? Ok, what's my exposure in that area? What's my total boating exposure, do I need to tighten up or loosen up. How much money did we lose on the hurricanes and fire? Have we been able to place our reinsurance so our losses are limited?

What's this guy's experience? What's his credit report look like? Background check? Where's he going to use it? Where else? What about this boat? Brand? What's our history on that builder? What about age? Do we have too many boats that age insured?

BandB said:

Now, there's not some individual sitting there reviewing all the things I'm about to list, but between systems and data and people, here's something like the scenario may go when you apply.

Let's see. Where are they? Ok, what's my exposure in that area? What's my total boating exposure, do I need to tighten up or loosen up. How much money did we lose on the hurricanes and fire? Have we been able to place our reinsurance so our losses are limited?

What's this guy's experience? What's his credit report look like? Background check? Where's he going to use it? Where else? What about this boat? Brand? What's our history on that builder? What about age? Do we have too many boats that age insured?

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Oh, I never doubted that the craziness made sense to the insurance industry. I'm talking about the rest of the world.

But, I'm so dumb, I still don't understand why my insurance was $85 a month for two cars, but went up to $120 a month for one car after I sold one of them and lost my "two car discount".

FYTW. Obtaining rational answers won't happen. Fuzzy faced MBAs make the call based on Voodoo doll pinpricks.

So, I get the mail from yesterday and lo and behold there is my renewal policy from BoatUS/Geico. Open it up and see that my premium.....went down $200. In Jupiter, FL. All year round. Go figure.

firstbase said:

So, I get the mail from yesterday and lo and behold there is my renewal policy from BoatUS/Geico. Open it up and see that my premium.....went down $200. In Jupiter, FL. All year round. Go figure.

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Wifey B: You going to call them and argue with them? :lol:

firstbase said:

So, I get the mail from yesterday and lo and behold there is my renewal policy from BoatUS/Geico. Open it up and see that my premium.....went down $200. In Jupiter, FL. All year round. Go figure.

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The premium adjuster slipped when he was throwing his dart at the rate increase board!

Group9 said:

The premium adjuster slipped when he was throwing his dart at the rate increase board!

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I would expect a lot of wild moves for Boat US insured boats as Geico tries to bring it around to a single insurance program as opposed to one company offering two with different policies and practices and rules. I've seen this in business before where after an acquisition two companies were under a single ownership. One credit department would cut a customer off while the other company continued to ship huge volume.

BandB said:

I would expect a lot of wild moves for Boat US insured boats as Geico tries to bring it around to a single insurance program as opposed to one company offering two with different policies and practices and rules. I've seen this in business before where after an acquisition two companies were under a single ownership. One credit department would cut a customer off while the other company continued to ship huge volume.

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Insurance companies: making the government look rational and normal in comparison!

Not arguing with them at all! Still want to sit with a broker and go over the policy to compare as I don't REALLY understand the ins and outs and I hear/read the "Thought I was insured...." horror stories. Can't hurt. Right now I'm insured for "U.S. Atlantic and Gulf Coastal Waters and inland waters tributary thereto between Eastport, ME and Brownsville, TX inclusive." Will premium go up significantly when I add Bahamas?

firstbase said:

.... Right now I'm insured for "U.S. Atlantic and Gulf Coastal Waters and inland waters tributary thereto between Eastport, ME and Brownsville, TX inclusive." Will premium go up significantly when I add Bahamas?

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Call your agent and ask for a trip rider. That way you may not have to extend/add coverage for the entire year in the Bahamas.

We're insured with Geico Marine and ours went down $125 when we renewed on October 2. Who knows what’s going to happen next year after they figure out their losses from this year.

Geico also added a "Disappearing Deductible" benefit to our policy. They said since we have no claims, with a long history, our hull deductible was reduced to $0 (excluding named storms).

Thanks Larry. Did don’t know I could do that.

Maerin said:

Along with that non-renewal notice comes a stealth ding to getting replacement insurance. Remember seeing that question on the application that asks if you've ever been refused insurance or received a notice of non- renewal? It's going to cost you additional premium, even though it may be through no fault of your own. I had a claim with Falvey and had to threaten legal action to get them to settle the claim, even with that it took 6 months to finally get a check. They sent the check, and the non-renewal followed a week later. My replacement policy premiums were increased for 2 yrs as a result, according to the underwriter. BTW, the claim was a break-in, I was 1,000 miles from the boat at the time, but I guess they concluded it was my fault. Terrible people to deal with, snarky adjuster. Good riddance, no small wonder they're out of the marine business.

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Not necessarily true for all marine carriers. A non-renewal for cause is significantly different from a NR for a market no longer writing a class of risk, or getting out of the marine side altogether.

It's the same as a claim for a hurricane haulout- while it is a claim, it is NOT counted as a mark against the insured for rating purposes.

I underwrite these situations everyday, especially with Falvey leaving the market. The challenge with Falvey's departure is that Falvey massively undercut the market and did not properly rate their risks- and now everybody assumes that they are being hammered or screwed because of Falvey's pricing structure.

Pau Hana said:

Not necessarily true for all marine carriers. A non-renewal for cause is significantly different from a NR for a market no longer writing a class of risk, or getting out of the marine side altogether.

It's the same as a claim for a hurricane haulout- while it is a claim, it is NOT counted as a mark against the insured for rating purposes.

I underwrite these situations everyday, especially with Falvey leaving the market. The challenge with Falvey's departure is that Falvey massively undercut the market and did not properly rate their risks- and now everybody assumes that they are being hammered or screwed because of Falvey's pricing structure.

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Falvey is a good overall business lesson. They couldn't consistently undercut their competitors and be profitable. Their competitors aren't idiots. However, they sure stir up the market by undercutting and create a false impression for many.

Long long ago I joined a company with a Jamaican operation. They had used 4 different insurers in the previous 5 years as one would come in and give low rates and then back out a year later or quadruple the rate. I remember the last of the four. We'd experienced one of the largest hurricanes to hit the island, yet had no damage to our building. Still the insurer said to continue, we needed a wet sprinkler system (had dry) and needed the building to meet 150 mph hurricane standards. As to the first, we explained there wasn't adequate water pressure in the city to support wet sprinklers. As to the second we asked, do you mean we should tell the government to rebuild the building? Finally they said they would insure but it was more than double the year before. We switched to Lloyd's and stayed with them for decades.

We were one of the folks with Falvey that of course got the letter saying Falvey is getting out of the marine business.
I'd have to agree with Pau Hana; we won't get any ding for Falvey leaving. as we fill out new insurance applications, we won't have to talk about "not being renewed" since its not about anything we did.
Already got a couple new quotes: BoatUS is slightly less than Falvey. Interestingly, got one from Pantaenius that was about triple the one from Boat US(!)...

Hamrow said:

We were one of the folks with Falvey that of course got the letter saying Falvey is getting out of the marine business.
I'd have to agree with Pau Hana; we won't get any ding for Falvey leaving. as we fill out new insurance applications, we won't have to talk about "not being renewed" since its not about anything we did.
Already got a couple new quotes: BoatUS is slightly less than Falvey. Interestingly, got one from Pantaenius that was about triple the one from Boat US(!)...

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The most bizarre thing was when we insured our last boat purchase with Boat US.

We asked for a quote for agreed value (for the purchase price) and it was out of sight, like $4400 dollars. So, for the hell of it, I asked for a quote for fair market value. It was $1550 and valued our boat at $20,000 above the agreed value amount (and what we had paid for it) that I had submitted. And, it didn't match the survey valuation, so who the hell knows where they got it!

We took the higher coverage for less premium. Who knows what the hell it would actually pay out if it sunk?

I don't even try to understand insurance any more.