FL Bill to Regulate TowboatUS and SeaTow

Is anyone here following the FL bill to further regulate TowboatUS and SeaTow that was introduced by Dana Young? Does anyone know of experiences that might justify this?

I have nothing but very good things to say about TowboatUS although I did have one strange experience in VA.

I was towed quite a long distance after an engine failure in my sailboat. A couple days later, I got a call from the towing captain saying that I owed him a couple of grand. I pointed out that I had an invoice from him that I signed when he was alongside that read “$0.00” at the bottom. He said that was between me and BoatUS, they had paid the maximum, and I owed him the balance of his costs. I said that I would have to talk to headquarters. He said (as best I remember), “Talk to whoever you want but this is between you and me. I know where you are. I’ll have the sherriff tie your boat to the dock, kick you off, and we can talk about this in court a couple of years from now when it gets onto the court calendar. I’ll wait. Meanwhile, your boat will be unattended at a dock somewhere.” I told him to suck an egg.

I called TowboatUS and they jumped right on it. They even sent me copies of their emails to their new franchisee. They basically said that if he ever tried something like that again with a customer they would yank his franchise so fast his head would still be spinning when they hauled him into court for breech of their contract with him. I tied up next to the towboat a few times in the next couple of years and the owner never said a word to me.

https://www.passagemaker.com/trawler-news/florida-law-salvage

I had something similar happen where after providing ten minutes of service to pull me off of a rock jetty I had dragged into, the towing company declared it a salvage claim. Maritime law allows them to claim it is a salvage whether it is or not. You then have to pay, negotiate or litigate.

The Florida law requires the towing company to advise you up front whether it is a salvage or a tow covered by your BoatUS insurance unless it is a life or death or imminent sinking situation. That is sensible and I support the law.

In my case, I assumed it was a simple tow situation. If I had been advised otherwise, as the proposed law requires upfront, I would have declined and gotten my self off. All I had to do was start the engine and move away from the rock jetty.

David

djmarchand said:

I had something similar happen
David

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Curious, did you have TowboatUS or Seatow insurance at the time?

If so, would you mind telling us which?

Roger Long said:

He said (as best I remember), “Talk to whoever you want but this is between you and me. I know where you are. I’ll have the sherriff tie your boat to the dock, kick you off, and we can talk about this in court a couple of years from now when it gets onto the court calendar. I’ll wait. Meanwhile, your boat will be unattended at a dock somewhere.” I told him to suck an egg.

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Not boating related, but I had a similar experience a while back with a landscape service company. It just amazes me that there are business owners out there who think that the proper way to handle customer service is to threaten liens and lawsuits at the very first indication of a disagreement.

The guy I dealt with said, "Hey! I file liens all the time!"

I said, "What is that, your company motto? Maybe you should paint that on the side of your trucks!"

Like you, in the end, his threats were all completely empty, as I had signed receipts and work orders to prove that I had paid everything I owed.

And people wonder why so many small businesses fail every year!

It happens in Canada too. Have a friend who anchored in Ganges a few years ago to go to the Saturday market. When he dinghied back to his vessel it was gone. Long story and sad tale later his lawyers and insurer said it was easier to pay the tow boat company 25k than fight it. Weather calm and no anchor dragging involved. A local shore person said his dock was threatened by the drifting unattended high end US flagged vessel. The towing company was only too happy to oblige.

I pay Boat US for my towing plan. I have not used it however my thought process is to call them when and if I need assistance and let them deal with the towing service. See how it works out when and if.

we always advised whether salvage or tow unless immanent threat to life or limb.

so the law is fine with me... until the state and courts take down some captain for not rendering aid because it was verbally refused, the something bad happens and it goes to suit and the captain gets screwed.

believe me, it is a very likely scenario.

and for every 5000 good outcomes, one or several bad ones happen.... always gotta legislate the bad calls...what a pity.

“and for every 5000 good outcomes, one or several bad ones happen.... always gotta legislate the bad calls...what a pity.”

It is a shame. I can attest that having spent many (successful) years in a service business that the large majority of customers and businesses in this world try to do the right thing and are looking for nothing else but a mutually beneficial outcome. Legislators will do their best to screw that up.

Senator Young has some pull in the Legislature, she was in Leadership when she was in the House.

The Senate Bill and the House companion have each passed 2 of their 3 committee assignments. The Legislature is in week 4 of 8 so that's some good movement for this point in the session.

I gave it a quick read, and of course few Bills make it through the typical 3 committees and the floor of their respective chambers without amendments, so the fat lady has not sung yet. The 4 votes so far in Committee have not been close, but have not been unanimous either, that is interesting as most of the time when a Bill is heard in Committee the ducks are already in a row.

Senate Bill 664 (2018) - The Florida Senate

Typical desk jockeys....


Verbal contracts are usually valid is certain situations....


Written notice provided to a vessel in 5 foot seas, crashing it against the rocks, pouring rain, 35 knots of wind pinning the vessel, everyone on board petrified numb, probably injured, unable to move without probable injury....I make the approach in a single engine Shamrock, no thrusters, probably no crew....


And....... a written contract is necessary, which obviously any good attorney will get tossed anyway because the signer was petrified to insanity....


OK...lets see how this one plays out.


Even the USCG is smart enough to not have a lawyer aboard all helos instead of rescue swimmers (their next qualification) and lower liability releases on daring rescues.


OK...maybe an extreme case...but the other is true too.... getting your but wacked if you drive away because you CANT always get a signature or just get flat out refused because of sticker shock ....then something bad happens....

.....

Greetings,
OK. So is a verbal statement by the tower like: " This is assistance NOT salvage" sufficient to forestall any salvage claims by the tower or is a signed statement necessary?

sunchaser said:

It happens in Canada too.

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Terminology varies from country to country and region to region but, I think where I come from that would be called "theft".

Roger Long said:

Curious, did you have TowboatUS or Seatow insurance at the time?

If so, would you mind telling us which?

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It is entirely irrelevant as to who the tower was but it was TowBoatUS and I had BoatUS unlimited towing insurance. The incident described occurred in the anchorage at Oriental, NC when my anchor dragged.

To be fair (well only a little) the towing company said that they would contact my insurance company and negotiate a settlement and that i wouldn't be personally charged. Typical- focus on the insurance to spread the cost to all of us rather than hit us individually.

I did contact my insurance company and they had an adjuster call me to arrange to come out and assess the damage. I said what damage, just a little scraped paint below the water line. I said that you can come but it will take a haul out or a diver to see it. He declined to come.

He did ask what value TowBoat provided in this incident. I told him it was worthwhile to have the tower hold me off the rocks while I hauled the anchor and got the engines started, but not essential. I told him I didn't think twice about accepting his assistance because I had BoatUS towing insurance.

I don't know what if anything was paid. Never heard any more about it.

And to others comments about verbal contracts. I think that the Florida law should assume that all tows are non salvage unless indicated in writing. It only takes a minute for the boat owner to sign a form indicating it is salvage, not routine towing. If you can't do that then you probably are in an imminent danger situation and the marine salvage law should hold.

David

A sticky subject, and there are a few stories out there of unscrupulous operators taking advantage. I know the Sea Tow owner in my area, and most of the guys that work for him. They all have good intentions, care, and are not looking to claim salvage unless the situation calls for it. Its the easiest check I write all year in regards to boating.

I have a feeling that Maritime Law is going to trump anything the great State of Florida does. It seems to be the Law of the water when it comes to towing and salvage.

time will tell...Fl may not have its say in maritime court, but I guess it can fine you and pull your business license.

time will tell, and hopefully no one on either side of the towlines suffers for it.

I know some guys in the towing business and everyone hates then until they need them and they become saviors until the bill arrives and they are hated again. Sad. Reminds me of cop fobia.

Item 1-I see over and over and over including this thread people referring to Tow Membership as insurance. It is not insurance. Don't think of it that way. It is membership agreement that provides access to certain services.

Item 2-Read the agreement. There should be no confusion that hard groundings are salvage in the eyes of the agreement.

Item 3-If it even seems possible it might be salvage or something serious, contact your insurance company. They also can enter agreements with the tow company to cover the tow expenses.

The above three things are all controlled by the person being towed, by you. As to the tow operator, I do think some laws regarding their obligation to make it clear if it's salvage are ok, but I think the vast majority are professional and make it all clear. The tow companies are quick to deal with some of the mavericks, but still much of the problem comes back to the boat owner not knowing what the rules are, not knowing what he paid for, not involving his insurer if it's salvage. Most have insurance and most insurance covers salvage. Tow membership does not.

Technically, even the tow to the marina from a water or fire damaged boat is not covered. Spelled out clearly by Sea Tow, a little less clear by BoatUS so the franchise may have the option if they like you....

That really gets people stirred up too...

Usually its covered in the hull insurance hopefully you have.....

While I am not following it, I have heard about it and agree that some form of oversight needs to be imposed as it seems that relying on private interpretations of maritime law has enough loopholes in it to have many of us see or hear of abuses in definitions of terminology. If the tow companies and "membership companies", at the least, provide a menu and pricing and definitions of what constitutes what service, it would help a lot. Yes, I know there are 100's of situations and you can never cover them all, but the comfort that TowBoatUS and SeaTow sell, is sometimes far different than what they will provide. Moreover, the expectation that even the most experienced captain MUST make monumental decisions while lives and property are (or sometimes even when they aren't) in jeopardy isn't always fair. It is so different than car insurance. You can't just get out of a minor fender-bender and stand on the side of the road and think about what to do next.

I wonder if tow club memberships should just go away and let's do this more like auto coverage. I have tow and salvage in my policy, but it doesn't cover everything. I would pay more for hull insurance if I didn't have to worry about a tow company trying to take advantage of me when I was in peril. I would feel better if I knew insurance would cover it completely and if the tow company has an issue, they take it up with my insurance provider.

Finally, I would also like to see the antiquated maritime law that allows them to basically steal your boat and hold it hostage for money done away with. Put a lean on it? Yea maybe... but there is NO REASON for them to look at the value of the vessel and determine a salvage price on that. Per foot would make much more sense.

Anyway, some of this may be BS and isn't based 100% on experience, but I, like many others I would gather, are extremely confused by what tow companies sell and cover, what insurance will and won't cover, and what maritime law allows everyone to do about it (and where). I assume we will all get an earful about it in this thread sooner or later

Sea Tow membership is pretty black and white...BoatUS after reteading it several times is less clear.

The problem is hearsay and anecdotal experiences by boaters that confise the membership services when they post their experiences on the web.

Plus, sometimes towing services are good guys and do stuff not strictly covered...which obviously comes back to haunt them.

Like any membership, insurance or investment stategy, if you dont study it...especially with so much at stake .... you are being careless with your money.

As far as salvage bills...I dont know how many here have risked their lives and limbs on a tegular basis their whole life, but I have and hearing that the guy I just saved got a 100 million golden parachute can kiss my ass if his is only worth a couple thou when I risk mine to save him.

Anyone I know that has had to call TowbouatUS around here, has very positive things to say about them. That's a small sample to judge an entire industry, but I'm sure most of the tow operators are professionals and not pirates out looking for booty.

However, a small percentage of people are opportunistic jerks, and if given the opportunity to take advantage of someone, they will. Why not remove the temptation and make the cost of the salvage based on the work that was done, not the value of what was saved.

If a tow operator, or any sevice provider for that matter, can't give you an itemized cost breakdown of why they are charging you a certain amount, there's something wrong there.

The service provided to pull my boat off the rocks is the same, whether its a 30 year old boat, or a brand new Nordhavn carrying Fabrege Eggs and Van Gogh paintings.

It seems like the law would not have much effect on the legitimate towing services but would correct an arcane law that can be used by the unscrupulous to take advantage of people, and it seems like a good idea to me.

It will be interesting to see how the conflict between Federal Maritime Law and a State Law, if this passes, is reconciled.

Benthic2 said:

Anyone I know that has had to call TowbouatUS around here, has very positive things to say about them. That's a small sample to judge an entire industry, but I'm sure most of the tow operators are professionals and not pirates out looking for booty.

However, a small percentage of people are opportunistic jerks, and if given the opportunity to take advantage of someone, they will. Why not remove the temptation and make the cost of the salvage based on the work that was done, not the value of what was saved.

If a tow operator, or any sevice provider for that matter, can't give you an itemized cost breakdown of why they are charging you a certain amount, there's something wrong there.

The service provided to pull my boat off the rocks is the same, whether its a 30 year old boat, or a brand new Nordhavn carrying Fabrege Eggs and Van Gogh paintings.

It seems like the law would not have much effect on the legitimate towing services but would correct an arcane law that can be used by the unscrupulous to take advantage of people, and it seems like a good idea to me.

It will be interesting to see how the conflict between Federal Maritime Law and a State Law, if this passes, is reconciled.

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maritime salvage law is timeless and you are not informed to the ins and outs of why salvage law exists. You should read up on it.

The reason for astronomical salvage claims has been time tested. Like I said...what is you life and or boatv worth to you when all involved are in peril on the rocks?.

Its just that when maritime salvage is inappropriately applied, it makes the whole industry look bad.

And its funny, just today I read an article that mentioned the salvage industry is one of the most profesdional maritime industries by the USCG audits for the last few years IIRC.

and for giggles...I was one of the longest employed captains in a large assistance towing firm....and in 15 years, I was never involved in a petcentage of vessel value case despite hundteds of salvage cases.

Scott. I don’t think anyone on the forum would doubt that your are professional in your career in the air and on the water. Others might not hold themselves to your high standards. Just sayin

sunchaser said:

It happens in Canada too. Have a friend who anchored in Ganges a few years ago to go to the Saturday market...

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Huh. We stayed at Ganges last summer for one night on a charter. Unlike every other Canadian marina on the trip, Ganges was not helpful or friendly. They seemed annoyed by our presence and acted like they were doing us a huge favor to let us stay there. They also watched us go to a slip on the wrong end from the marina office windows and didn't say a word. And it was kind of a gross marina too, some of the shoreside slips were filled with floating garbage. The town was great and we happened on a fantastic restaurant, but the marina staff, not so much. Sorry, thread drift.

Bigsfish said:

Scott. I don’t think anyone on the forum would doubt that your are professional in your career in the air and on the water. Others might not hold themselves to your high standards. Just sayin

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Thank you for the kind words Irv...

But salvage claims are based on being prepared and sitting around with expensive equipment and risk when the time comes.

No risk, no salvage award in maritime court.

Thats what people dont get, but the courts do.

For people who think prices are high, compare it to the profit margins versus overhead and actual work and they may be suprised as who is really ripping them off.

kthoennes said:

Huh. We stayed at Ganges last summer for one night on a charter. Unlike every other Canadian marina on the trip, Ganges was not helpful or friendly. They seemed annoyed by our presence and acted like they were doing us a huge favor to let us stay there. They also watched us go to a slip on the wrong end from the marina office windows and didn't say a word. And it was kind of a gross marina too, some of the shoreside slips were filled with floating garbage. The town was great and we happened on a fantastic restaurant, but the marina staff, not so much. Sorry, thread drift.

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Let’s not hijack this thread. Ganges has 4 marinas and a public dock. Your experience is not normal. I’m guessing you went to the marina that caters to yacht clubs and is less interested in non yacht club boats.

I may not know as much about it as you do, but I am far from clueless and its incredibly presumptious of you to say such.

Salvage Law is based on encouraging salvors to take risks to save property that owners would want saved.... its very reason for existence is to benefit owners. It comes from a time when communication was slow, and owners didn't sail on their vessels. Neither of those is true today, nor do they apply to pleasure boats.

Salvage awards were determined by a court who acted in the service of the public. The individual salvor should not be able to determine what the award is. To have the salvor be able to determine if a situation is salvage vs assistance, and then determine his own award is legalized piracy and bound to encourage the unscrupulous minority to seek unjust enrichment.

Salvage awards were designed to encourage the maintenance and ownership of specialized salvage vessels and equipment needed to ensure the public good, as shipping was vital to the world economy. Again, this does not apply to most private recreational boats, as the required euipment ( a boat and a rope ) was not purchased solely for salvage use. It especially does not apply to a TowboatUS/Seatow assistance, as those boats are set up for towing, already, and use the equipment they normally used in the undertaking of their regular services. ( I'm sure there are instances where specialized equipment ( lift bags, pumps, divers etc ) is needed.....and in those cases the salvor should absolutely be compensated for having the equipment and the skill to use it....no objection to that at all )

As I said in my previous post, I'm sure that most tow/assistance operators are honest and decent professionals who are not looking to take advantage of people. But I also think that applying a thousand year old law intended for commercial shipping to recreational boating in modern times is inappropriate and that it might need some updating and have some limits applied to it.

I just love hearing about these "antiquated maritime laws" that "shouldn't apply to recreational vessels" yet recreational vessels sink or ground all the time. You think your $200/year membership should cover all of this? Haha...

Benthic2 I edited the clueless part right after I posted it because I know it upsets people as it has become derogatory insrtead of just descriptive.

But it seems you were until you googled maritime salvage as your followup post reads right out of some the same articles I have read.

Plus, maritime courts have evolved. Many salvor claims are tossed when they smack of salvage, but not like the old days. The court applies the rules stringently,, and often dropped to time and materials. I would say 95 percent of the "salvage" jobs I did were time and materials because the insurance companies liked it, it was fair and usually never squbbled over nut by the owner who had to pay upfront if the insurance company didnt respond before we left.

So no, its not an arcane law any more than many other laws on ths books that people see as unfair if it can hurt them in their pockets.