Transmission oil- can I use mulitgrade?

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Insequent said:
Thanks ASD
Your gears are likely more modern than mine, which are 1981. I will try and get a response from the local TD guys that is specific to old 506's. I'm sure the CAT oil would be very good, but I might not need that good a spec.
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Mine are 1987 MG-507
 
Nomad Willy said:
hgjm8,
I read that to be saying engine lube oil and returns to a viscosity closer to it’s base. In your example 5W-30 would become perhaps 0W-20 after a peroid of time. Is that period of time within normal change intervals or beyond it?

How much “sheardown” does SAE 30 experience? I would expect none as there’s no “polymers” to break down.

I’m one to tend toward using SAE 30 and warming my boat engine up slowly eliminating the need for MV oils. Our engine compartments are kept above 40 degrees with heaters in winter and warm (relative) surrounding waters in contact with the hull. Even in Alaska I had no starting problems whatsoever. I reason my SAE 30 is slightly better at 100c than SAE 5W-30. Any truth in that in your opinion?

Also will an SAE 30 oil have additives that make it more suitable to boats in marine use than SAE 5W-30? My thinking is that SAE W15-40 is best suited as a truck engine lube oil and SAE 30 is more suitable bor boats and marine.
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You are correct, in that, SAE 30 grade oils do not have Viscosity Index Improver (VII) additives. Therefore, they should remain constant viscosity of between 9.3 and 12.4 cSt at 100C. Multi-grade oils will sheardown and the rate of shear is related to the amount of VII in the formulation along with the amount of stresses over a period of time. Oil analysis reveals the change in viscosity over time (shear rate). There's no other way to measure it. In the case of an SAE 5W-30, the oil will eventually shear down to the base oil viscosity (BOV) and it will eventually become an SAE 5W oil. If oils are left in too long without checking them, they can undogo many changes that include loss of viscosity, oxidation (which tends to make the oil more acidic and thicker over time) and contamination from fuel dilution, dust, dirt, etc.

"Oil Life" can be pictured as a (3) legged stool
The (3) legs of oil life are viscosity (physical change), oxidation (chemical change) and contamination. If any of the (3) legs weakens, the oil falls apart and needs to be changed. Oil sampling and analysis reveals all three and will set the proper change interval for optimum oil life. This is true in engines and transmissions (gearboxes).

Hope this helps !!
 
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Alaskan Sea-Duction said:
Mine are 1987 MG-507
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Link to MG-507 Owner's Manual:http://www.twindisc.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Marine-Trans-Owners-Manual-1016313_RevH_0116_CD.pdf

In Section 2, it specifies any Allison C-4 oil may be used. I signed most of the C-4 approvals for Allison Transmission. I can tell you that the Allison C-4 specification is now obsolete. But it included both engine oils and automatic transmission fluids (DEXRON-II, DEXRON-IIE and DEXRON-III). So, my recommendation would be to use an Allison approved TES-295 fluid which can be found at this link. Any of these oils will give excellent performance and last for very long periods of time. You'd just want to do oil sampling annually to check for any type contamination. The oil itself will remain stable over a very long period of time (years).

Allison TES-295 fluids list: On-Highway Fluids
 
hzjcm8,
It does indeed.
Lots of variables.
I like the three legged stool.
I’ll just keep on keep’n on w SAE 30 and change often.

Re the gear oil I have a BW and use ATF. Will apply continue and change often.
 
hzjcm8 said:
Link to MG-507 Owner's Manual:http://www.twindisc.com/wp-content/...-Trans-Owners-Manual-1016313_RevH_0116_CD.pdf

In Section 2, it specifies any Allison C-4 oil may be used. I signed most of the C-4 approvals for Allison Transmission. I can tell you that the Allison C-4 specification is now obsolete. But it included both engine oils and automatic transmission fluids (DEXRON-II, DEXRON-IIE and DEXRON-III). So, my recommendation would be to use an Allison approved TES-295 fluid which can be found at this link. Any of these oils will give excellent performance and last for very long periods of time. You'd just want to do oil sampling annually to check for any type contamination. The oil itself will remain stable over a very long period of time (years).

Allison TES-295 fluids list: On-Highway Fluids
Click to expand...

The pic below is what is recommended for my MG-507. Must pass TO-2. This has been updated to TO-4. Depending on the operating temp will determine which viscosity you would use, 30wt or 40wt. Because I operate in the PNW and Alaska, I use 30wt.

I could not find TO-4-30wt in your normal auto stores. I could special order Delo Torque Force. It was easier to go to the local CAT store. Not that it matters, my MG-507 are stamped Caterpillar. I am told that the engine and tranny was a package.
 

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North Baltic sea said:
I have mg5061 gear and service manual say: use only SAE-API service class CD engine oil certified to meet TO-2 transmission oil specification or type C-3 transmission fluid. Also approved is SAE-API service class CC engine oil.

Steady operation conditions(GEAR OIL) 150°-185° f SAE30 and 185°-210° f SAE40

And Multi-viccosity oils (i.e. 10W-40, etc.) should not be used in Twin Dick marine Transmissions.

I hope help your oil questions.

NBs
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Freudian slip?
 
Tom, some great info on debunking the mythical alphabet soup of lubricants. I went through this exact same exercise in 2016 with our TD MG506-1's. I went back and forth with TD and finally engaged some technical services folks at Amsoil, a product I use exclusively. I did not see any references to synthetic oils in the thread and thought I'd share our results. First, TD's spec was "any two of the three listed below" which included one motor oil, one transmission fluid and one gear oil. So, since they seemed to like motor oil in these boxes the best, I went with 15-40 Diesel oil. (synthetic of course) A couple of things happened.

First, a persistent howl in the port tranny at 1,000 RPMs dissappeared. Second, gear oil temps declined by about 30 degrees after a full day of running. Over 4,000 hours on both and they hum like sewing machines.
One common misconception is the oil will break down and go from 40w to 15w. This is not true.

As an aside, one of the docs I got from TD listed "used motor oil" as an acceptable fill. I'm thinking these things may not be that fussy, as long as you are using the right type of lubricant, motor oil, gear oil, transmission fluid - based on your best info for that particular mixer. On the transmission tags mine say "check the manual for proper lubricant" I have the manual and it says "check the tag on the transmission for proper lubricant" :banghead:
 
NightCrawler
Interesting experience. My takeaway is that the old 506's are built like a brick sh...house, and if not pushed hard then almost anything will do. Caltexflanc's tagline is echoing in my head for some reason......


But here is a short reply from the local TD dealer:

Hi Brian

SAE 30 MONO GRADE OIL is correct and definitely no Multi grades as this is a hydraulic transmission and Multi grades are not suitable in hydraulics.
Or for gear protection in transmissions.
Cheers.

Best regards
Kevin Nugent | Workshop Manager

I now have Kevin's phone #, but don't really see a need to take it further. I'll continue with SAE 30, very likely the Prolube I linked to above. I mostly cruise at 8-9kn. Were I pushing the gears hard, running at 16-17 kn for long periods, then I would likely go for the CAT or Allison oils.

Thanks to everyone for your comments, I learnt a few things....
 
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NightCrawler said:
Tom, some great info on debunking the mythical alphabet soup of lubricants. I went through this exact same exercise in 2016 with our TD MG506-1's. I went back and forth with TD and finally engaged some technical services folks at Amsoil, a product I use exclusively. I did not see any references to synthetic oils in the thread and thought I'd share our results. First, TD's spec was "any two of the three listed below" which included one motor oil, one transmission fluid and one gear oil. So, since they seemed to like motor oil in these boxes the best, I went with 15-40 Diesel oil. (synthetic of course) A couple of things happened.

First, a persistent howl in the port tranny at 1,000 RPMs dissappeared. Second, gear oil temps declined by about 30 degrees after a full day of running. Over 4,000 hours on both and they hum like sewing machines.
One common misconception is the oil will break down and go from 40w to 15w. This is not true.

As an aside, one of the docs I got from TD listed "used motor oil" as an acceptable fill. I'm thinking these things may not be that fussy, as long as you are using the right type of lubricant, motor oil, gear oil, transmission fluid - based on your best info for that particular mixer. On the transmission tags mine say "check the manual for proper lubricant" I have the manual and it says "check the tag on the transmission for proper lubricant" :banghead:
Click to expand...

“One common misconception is the oil will break down and go from 40w to 15w. This is not true. “

It is true. Oil analysis will confirm it and It will happen every time. It won’t go all the way down to SAE 15W, in most cases, but it will always drop. That’s just the nature of the viscosity index improvers.
 
Nomad Willy said:
hzjcm8,
It does indeed.
Lots of variables.
I like the three legged stool.
I’ll just keep on keep’n on w SAE 30 and change often.

Re the gear oil I have a BW and use ATF. Will apply continue and change often.
Click to expand...

Here's a "visual" of my 3-legged stool analogy.
the-3-legged-stool.jpg
 

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CD oil is only different from CC oil in the amount of detergent in the oil.

Detergent is not oil, is not a lubricant and is hardly needed in a tranny .

Straight 30wt-40wt or for our Twin Disc 50wt non detergent is still easy enough to obtain.
 
I use synthetic 5-30 in my Velvet Drive.
Came to that decision after a long conversation with one of the very seasoned tech guys at my local VD distributor and a bearing engineer I worked with at the time.
Made the change after I rebuilt the tranny.
 
Insequent said:
Thanks for replies!

Auskiwi - info on the CAT oil would be useful when you can provide it.

Commodave - Amazon started here with much fanfare and nervousness from competitors last Dec. But they have pretty much flopped so far, not much range and no engine/gear oil, prices often not competitive.

I can source some 30W oil, but not sure of spec at this point. One is Castrol 4T, a 30W oil for 4 stroke lawnmowers. Another is Prolube. I have never heard of them but their product would seem to be suitable.
https://prolube.com.au/shop/diesel-engine-oils/monotec-30-sae-30-cd-sf-3/

The major oil suppliers eg Shell don't appear to routinely carry it in outlets, but likely it can be ordered in.
Click to expand...


Hi
Yes this oil meets your requirements SAE30 and C3 as well as API CD.

I also looked at the Shell wheel T1 30W to meet the TO-2 and C3 rating as Twin Dick requirements, as I mentioned earlier.

NBs
 
jleonard said:
I use synthetic 5-30 in my Velvet Drive.
Came to that decision after a long conversation with one of the very seasoned tech guys at my local VD distributor and a bearing engineer I worked with at the time.
Made the change after I rebuilt the tranny.
Click to expand...

You mean an engine lube oil I assume.
Why not use an oil intended for transmissions or gears?
haha what’s a VD distributor? Names not necessary.
 
Insequent said:
It's Twin Disc, not Twin Dick......
Click to expand...

:blush: ok,

I did not notice writing mistakes even if English is not a native language, so I guess I know which error I wrote ... I first wondered where a bug, thank you for clearing my mistake.:ermm::lol::D

NBS
only single Twin disc and...
 
auskiwi said:
My Mechanic used a Caterpillar branded 30 wt oil in my twin Disc boxes, I will check the account to confirm when I get back to my boat, The oil was sourced in Brisbane
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Hi Auskiwi, did you have your boat serviced a few weeks ago? I’m pretty sure I walked passed your boat at Runaway Bay and saw oil containers on the back deck, I noticed it as I too have a Riviera aftcab but mines the 35 version
 
North Baltic does very well on TF, we can see you are translating,it can`t be easy,and I for one value your posts.
"Freudian slip" is difficult to explain, you should google it. Named after English psychiatrist Sigmund Freud, relates to psychoanalysis, and the significant "accidental" but revealing use, of a word or phrase.
 
Austrian, my dear Bruce, not English. Just sayin'
 
Insequent said:
I have Twin Disc 506 trannies. It is recommended to use SAE 30 oil in them, which I've been doing. My usual source for oil only has it in stock occasionally, but I could order it in advance no problem.
.
Click to expand...
I use the same.

Have you tried Gibbs truck parts on Lytton rd?
http://www.gibbsparts.com.au

20 litre drums of Synforce brand that they have on hand for the trawler guys.
 
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Xsbank said:
Austrian, my dear Bruce, not English. Just sayin'
Click to expand...
You are right. And here`s me with Viennese grandparents.
But, he relocated to the UK, where he died. His son Clement was a prominent UK citizen. My checks show he was in fact a neurologist, but being regarded as the father of psychoanalysis, psychiatrist gets fairly close.
 
Insequent said:
I'll try them next time. But it will be a while. TD say 1000 hrs between changes, or 6 mths. I do every 500 hrs.
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Would be interested to see what Kevin has to say about it, I must admit, I never asked just made the assumption when I called Gibbs and asked for 30 mono and they said " you must have a trawler" that it was the goods.

We have a monster box - a 516, holds around 30 litres and weighs around 720kg dry :eek: which reminds me, time to pump her out and change the filter.
 
The hassle with multigrade is it is usually thin as water until it heats up.

Great for starting a big diesel in below freezing conditions where cranking speed counts.

Not so great for clutch packs that are operated by hyd fluid pressure.
 
I contacted Twin Disc technical department directly about this, and they echoed what was said above: a multivis will quickly break down under the shear of the gears and you'll have something close to the lower number. That is why they are insistent on a single vis oil.
 
DDW said:
I contacted Twin Disc technical department directly about this, and they echoed what was said above: a multivis will quickly break down under the shear of the gears and you'll have something close to the lower number. That is why they are insistent on a single vis oil.
Click to expand...

Having done some deeper research, I found this to be an old wives tale. Good synthetic oil does not shear into the lower grade. Switched our 501's to Amsoil 15/40 diesel oil and they have been happy and quieter for over 1,500 hours.

Sidebar- Twin Disc sent me a spec sheet that required 2 out of three items present to comply.
1 was motor oil, 2 was gear oil and 3 was motor oil.
At the very bottom of the spec sheet it said "used motor oil in good condition may be used."
Go figure .. .
 
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