Think I need to change plans

Hello fellow boaters,

I've barely posted since joining a couple years ago but read this forum almost daily. Learned a lot here and helped us narrow down the choices for the next boat. Thank you for the free education!

Some background...nearing retirement and looking for a summer liveaboard. We plan to sell our home so it would be the boat in the summer and RV snowbirds in the winter.

Currently have a 2006 Four Winns Vista 378 that we enjoy on Lake Michigan / Green Bay.

This is where my rant comes in. Our boat only has 300 hours on the gas engines. It is truly near showroom condition including the shiny gelcoat. It's in such good shape I would offer a warranty to a private buyer. We probably will end up selling for $125k to $130.

Purchasing the next boat (Trawler type) 45' to 52', we were hoping to stay under $200k. However, scouring Yachtworld and broker sites, it seems like anything under that price is 30+ years old, engine hours north of 4,000, outdated electronics, worn interiors and faded/caulky exteriors. Not understanding the high asking prices for most of these boats when compared to much newer express cruisers and motoryachts? End of rant, just had to vent because it has been very discouraging!

Thinking of changing plans to a cockpit motoryacht?

My 1998 Sea Ray 420 AC was listed at $170K and I got it for $120.

Deals are out there.

OntheHook said:

... Purchasing the next boat (Trawler type) 45' to 52', we were hoping to stay under $200k. However, scouring Yachtworld and broker sites, it seems like anything under that price is 30+ years old, engine hours north of 4,000, outdated electronics, worn interiors and faded/caulky exteriors. Not understanding the high asking prices for most of these boats when compared to much newer express cruisers and motoryachts? End of rant, just had to vent because it has been very discouraging! ...

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First bigger is just more expensive (more materials, more labor). However, a lot of it has to due with production volume. As size goes up, volume goes down.

There are a lot more 38 foot boats than 50 footers.

Also, the cost of making anything was less 30+ years ago. Take any of the 30 year old boats you are looking and figure out how much it would cost to make a brand new one now. US inflation will double the price of something in the last 30 years. A $200k boat in 1988 would be $426k now just from inflation.

So, where do you intend to boat? If where you currently live, I don't see why one would choose a trawler. Their advantages don't really come into play. Plenty of choices from Sea Ray, Carver, Marquis and all the other popular boats in the area.

i kind of have to lean with the OP on this "rant"

all things being the same except for maybe a second engine, bigger windlass, extra staterooms etc....

does an extra 20 feet and maybe 2 feet of beam warrant a difference of 300,000 dollars between a 30 foot boat and a 50 footer?

BandB said:

So, where do you intend to boat? If where you currently live, I don't see why one would choose a trawler. Their advantages don't really come into play. Plenty of choices from Sea Ray, Carver, Marquis and all the other popular boats in the area.

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im sorry, but that is like asking a truck guy why doesnt he just buy a subaru to play around in on the weekends

If you end up looking on Yachtworld, don't limit your geographical choices. Expand them a bit and you might find the boat you're looking for. We did that and found our boat in the Detroit area. That would be a great cruise if you found your dream boat in Detroit and cruised it up Lake Huron, through the Straits and then home.


Good luck with your search.

TugYacht_33 said:

im sorry, but that is like asking a truck guy why doesnt he just buy a subaru to play around in on the weekends

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Except the OP isn't a truck guy and not in truck country.

But BandB I am a truck guy, F350 crew cab long box to pull the 5th wheel
Also to your earlier comment, yes our future cruising will probably be limited to the Great Lakes. In particular, circumnavigate Lake Superior. The remote eastern shore has limited services and fuel stops. Thought a trawler would be perfect due to smaller more efficient engines and larger fuel tanks. Range is a problem with our current boat.

GFC, it would be great to find a fresh water, low hour trawler in my area but there aren't many on the market. I've been looking alone the eastern coast, florida and the Gulf. So far I've made two trips to the gulf region looking at available boats. Half a loop to get her home would be a fun trip!

OntheHook said:

But BandB I am a truck guy, F350 crew cab long box to pull the 5th wheel
Also to your earlier comment, yes our future cruising will probably be limited to the Great Lakes. In particular, circumnavigate Lake Superior. The remote eastern shore has limited services and fuel stops. Thought a trawler would be perfect due to smaller more efficient engines and larger fuel tanks. Range is a problem with our current boat.

GFC, it would be great to find a fresh water, low hour trawler in my area but there aren't many on the market. I've been looking alone the eastern coast, florida and the Gulf. So far I've made two trips to the gulf region looking at available boats. Half a loop to get her home would be a fun trip!

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There are a lot of boats in between. All the tug brands, Mainship, some of the Sea Rays and Carvers. They can also be run slow to obtain the efficiency and better range, although not matching trawlers. With your limited season, fuel savings are going to be of limited value, taking a long time to recoup the up front cost. A lot of Grand Banks that could fit your needs.

Don't lock yourself in to a particular boat or type of boat, just find the one that best meets your needs. All boats are a compromise. By loosening up and not insisting on a "trawler", however one defines that, you give yourself more options.

TugYacht_33 said:

i kind of have to lean with the OP on this "rant"

all things being the same except for maybe a second engine, bigger windlass, extra staterooms etc....

does an extra 20 feet and maybe 2 feet of beam warrant a difference of 300,000 dollars between a 30 foot boat and a 50 footer?

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To some, yes.

To the OP: Yes, the reality is that the economy is doing much better with the stock market, real estate and used boats going up in value. This is supply and demand after an 8 year depressed market.

Great Lakes are a wonderful area to cruise. Spent last summer up there including 8 weeks on Lake Superior. While my trawler did very well up there, other types would work equally well. Saw a number of big Meridian /Bayliners up there that people seemed quite happy with. Lots of big sailboats up there also. Having sails doesn't obligate you to use them. For some perspective on used boat prices, go price equivalent new ones. A 25' center console can run $200K.

Tef

A 45' to 52' trawler is a big boat. It is (was) expensive to build. It's also going to be expensive to store, maintain and operate. A low initial price won't mean much when you look for a slip or go to the fuel dock.

Boating is not an inexpensive hobby. You have to pay to play.

My suggestion is to evaluate your needs vs. your wants. Many people do just fine with trawlers in the 30' range.

I kinda agree with OnTheHook a bit, too. There seems to be a bit of disparage with the price of trawlers vs. motor yachts and cruisers. Seems like the trawlers are a bit harder to find. However, not impossible.

If looking for a specific boat, there's a though to write to everyone that owns that particular boat. Although there's some work involved, you can get owners names from the state it's registered in and just mail letters. I've done that a few times with excellent success. It's surprising to find there are a ton of owners "getting ready" to sell, but haven't listed their boat yet, and often there's a good deal waiting. You become a quick and easy solution to their problem

" outdated electronics,"

Most electronics are "outdated" sometime between purchase and instalation.

Old items like autopilots are still on board because the still WORK!

A summer only boat need not be very large unless you are purchasing it to play hotel for guests.

35 ft does fine , especially when heat or air cond are not required and you can spend time outside.

Why change boats anyway , just to have a "trawler" style?

FF said:

" outdated electronics,"

Most electronics are "outdated" sometime between purchase and instalation.

Old items like autopilots are still on board because the still WORK!

A summer only boat need not be very large unless you are purchasing it to play hotel for guests.

35 ft does fine , especially when heat or air cond are not required and you can spend time outside.

Why change boats anyway , just to have a "trawler" style?

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FF,

Good point, but there are some big advantages to trawler style. For starters, they are significantly cheaper to operate (with diesel) than a 38ft gas boat, probably half as much. I went thru that with my 31 ft gas boat which cost double the operating cost of my 40 ft. trawler. Then there's often better space arrangements in the trawler, but perhaps not huge. And you can get a "fast" trawler in one wants more speed (at a price). Plus I think they just look cool.

Seevee said:

FF,

Good point, but there are some big advantages to trawler style. For starters, they are significantly cheaper to operate (with diesel) than a 38ft gas boat, probably half as much.

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And at 300 hours over 11 years, does that even matter?

Deals are out there -

My buddy bought a 2000 Carver 355 last year for $35,000. The boat was gas but it was in great shape. Comparable prices were in the $70's.

You can buy a lot of gas with the savings.

"they are significantly cheaper to operate (with diesel) than a 38ft gas boat, probably half as much."

This is only true if maint , oil changes , filters and repair parts are not counted , and the gasser is operated well above trawler speeds.

Operate at the Sq RT of the LWL for speed in Knots as many trawlers do (-30-50 hp) and gas is cheap to keep.

A vacuum gauge is a great help on a gasser , to stay below the secondaries opening , if you want to go a bit faster.

"Plus I think they just look cool."

Ego is expensive ,

A $4.00 spark plug vs a $75 injector rebuild , the requirement for super cleaned diesel fuel and the ease of repair make the seasonal or annual cost of diesels at least on par with gas.

Now if you run 200 -300+ days a year the diesel will have an advantage in fuel cost , and the higher repair PM costs can be OK.

At local cruising 200 hours a year many times a gas boat is a far better buy , the difference in interest on a loan may pay for all summers cruise

Engine hours on a diesel and engine hours in gas are WAY different. Think of it like diesels are tanks and gas is a car. However, either one must be properly maintained. I have had both. Given the choice, I would never own gas again.

TugYacht_33 said:

i kind of have to lean with the OP on this "rant"

all things being the same except for maybe a second engine, bigger windlass, extra staterooms etc....

does an extra 20 feet and maybe 2 feet of beam warrant a difference of 300,000 dollars between a 30 foot boat and a 50 footer?

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Yes, often it does. Look at the weights of the two. Look at the gear that is used in each. Look at the materials used. Look at the engines used. Look at the mold costs. Look a the volumes sold.

The used market is very volatile. Pick a bad year [depending of course on which end you are on] where fewer boats are put on the market and demand is high and the prices may be driven up for those that are available. Even locations have their effects.

An extra 20 ft of length and 2 or 3 ft of beam is a HUGE difference.

Do I like it , no, but to a large degree I understand it.


Don't be in a rush. As said there are deals around. You must become knowledgeable about what you want, need [not always the same] and familiar enough to know a good one from the not so good.

One thing I see/hear about too often is people leave the finding of a boat surveyor and an engine surveyor to the last minute. Don't do that. Start looking for good ones now. You should be identifying those long before you find the boat you think you want.

C lectric said:

One thing I see/hear about too often is people leave the finding of a boat surveyor and an engine surveyor to the last minute. Don't do that. Start looking for good ones now. You should be identifying those long before you find the boat you think you want.

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That assumes he knows where he'll find the boat.

FF said:

"they are significantly cheaper to operate (with diesel) than a 38ft gas boat, probably half as much."

This is only true if maint , oil changes , filters and repair parts are not counted , and the gasser is operated well above trawler speeds.

Operate at the Sq RT of the LWL for speed in Knots as many trawlers do (-30-50 hp) and gas is cheap to keep.

Gas is more at the pump for starters. Now is you can compare identical boats with the same HP, same speed, the gasser still consumes more gallons.

A vacuum gauge is a great help on a gasser , to stay below the secondaries opening , if you want to go a bit faster.

"Plus I think they just look cool."

Ego is expensive ,

A $4.00 spark plug vs a $75 injector rebuild , the requirement for super cleaned diesel fuel and the ease of repair make the seasonal or annual cost of diesels at least on par with gas.

The spark plug is way more that $4 and you have injectors on a gasser. Plus manifolds, risers, elbows,

Now if you run 200 -300+ days a year the diesel will have an advantage in fuel cost , and the higher repair PM costs can be OK.

And with that amount of time per year, you'll change engines every 3 to 4 years with a gasser and probably never with a diesel.

At local cruising 200 hours a year many times a gas boat is a far better buy , the difference in interest on a loan may pay for all summers cruise
Yes, purchase price is a lot cheaper, but I didn't say that it wasn't, just operating costs.

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FF,

Yes, the gas "operating" costs are about half as much. And, like Donna, I'd take diesel over gas given the choice. And once you get into trawler type boats, and larger boats, most of them are diesel. And there's deals on diesels our there, just in the last year I've seen a really nice 35 ft Carver go for $75 and theres a really nice 32 Grand Banks look a like with a rebuilt engine and two new gas tanks for $50.

Unless the boat is a Marina queen, the operating cost of gas is significantly more.

"Gas is more at the pump for starters."

Not for a couple of decades, Gas here in FL is $2.35 Diesel $ 2.85 right now.

A low priced diesel will be 25 -40 years old ,and is seldom a turnkey boat
, a low priced gasser 10-15 years old , and will have spark plugs , only new flyweight gassers use turbos and electronic injection.

"And with that amount of time per year, you'll change engines every 3 to 4 years with a gasser and probably never with a diesel."

The long lasting diesels are large and expensive.

In rec boats few diesels get over 10,000 hours with perhaps 15,000 realistic for a commercial boat , before overhaul. Full rebuild $10,000 to $15,000 plus R&R.

This is for an industrial duty diesel engine , nor a converted farm implement.

It can be "in framed" for about $2,000 of parts and a hefty labor bill.

A std V8 gasser should run 4,000 hours before needing a rebuild ,

BUT a brand new crate engine is about $4,000 and will be far more efficient than the 15 year old gasser it replaces..

If image is more important than operating costs for a few hundred hours a year , by all means buy a big diesel.

The "loop" is the one run that will go over the usual 200hrs a year ,but will hardly wear out a gas engine.

OntheHook said:

Purchasing the next boat (Trawler type) 45' to 52', we were hoping to stay under $200k.

Thinking of changing plans to a cockpit motoryacht?

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That is a pretty big trawler. Do you need that much boat? Do you have a large family? However, I am surprised you can't find one with a $200k budget. I am not in the broker biz, but it SEEMS like it is currently a seller's market. What I do know is that because of this year's hurricane season, there will be some market turmoil. Up or down... buyer or seller... Who knows? My point is that you kinda have a valid rant. Why, indeed, can't you get a nice 45' trawler for $200k?

Now, regarding the motoryacht thing. As a motoryacht owner, it isn't a bad way to go, but it IS different than "trawling". You really just have to sort of commit to a fast-boat lifestyle. These big turbo motors gunk up with soot (coking) unless you are at "cruising speed" (80% of WOT) most of the time. Our last owner went slow a lot (all the time) and I am still trying to reverse the build-up. That said, with great distances between fuel stations on the lakes, you will need to sit down and do the math to see if it will work in your cruising area and within your budget.

Good luck with your search and welcome out of the shadows of TF

Prices

"Gas is more at the pump for starters."

Not for a couple of decades, Gas here in FL is $2.35 Diesel $ 2.85 right now.

Auto Gas station prices and Marina prices are a lot different. Here in Florida, the last time I looked (last weekend)gas was 3.90 a gallon at my local marina.

OntheHook said:

But BandB I am a truck guy, F350 crew cab long box to pull the 5th wheel
Also to your earlier comment, yes our future cruising will probably be limited to the Great Lakes. In particular, circumnavigate Lake Superior. The remote eastern shore has limited services and fuel stops. Thought a trawler would be perfect due to smaller more efficient engines and larger fuel tanks. Range is a problem with our current boat.

GFC, it would be great to find a fresh water, low hour trawler in my area but there aren't many on the market. I've been looking alone the eastern coast, florida and the Gulf. So far I've made two trips to the gulf region looking at available boats. Half a loop to get her home would be a fun trip!

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The boat we last sold went to a couple operating out of the Detroit area with similar goals and needs. They bought our 1995 Bayliner 4788 pilothouse for less than $150K in great shape with less than 2,000 hours on the mains. It had very good range at hull speeds or less, good tankage and a draft and air clearance that would favor a loop trip. Fuel was 444 gallons with about 424 usable and at 6 knots or less you are at or above 3 nmpg. You could also travel at 15-16 knots at just under 1 nmpg if the need arose. We brought the boat as far as Kingston NY and they traveled from there to Detroit over the next 7 days.

In my experience, marina gas is more than marina diesel buy quite a bit. Marina gas is usually actual gasoline, not adulterated with ethanol and it's usually mid or high octane, not the 87 octane "regular" sold at land based stations.

BandB said:

That assumes he knows where he'll find the boat.

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Yes, correct. But even so many purchases are not too far away that some looking can minimize the panic of gotta find someone fast.

OntheHook said:

GFC, it would be great to find a fresh water, low hour trawler in my area but there aren't many on the market. I've been looking alone the eastern coast, florida and the Gulf. So far I've made two trips to the gulf region looking at available boats. Half a loop to get her home would be a fun trip!

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Took us most of a year to find a wonderful 30 year old Grand Banks 42'. After looking at many boats that had spent their lives in Florida I stayed away from them for the most part. Rode hard and put up wet as they say due to 12 months of use and the sun. In the end I found a boat, in Florida oddly enough, that spent 25 of its 30 years on the Great Lakes and stored in a boat shed for 8 months or so every year. Last 4 years she was doing the loop and in the Bahamas. Teak decks in excellent shape, some minor league blisters, Ford Lehman 135's at 4,100 hours w/oil analysis that couldn't have been better and two trannys that were rebuilt 4 years ago, same analysis results. Fuel tanks excellent, no rust inside or out. All of the major systems in very good and serviceable shape. Have done some remedial work i.e. replaced a head because it was old and tired and wifey wanted to push a button rather than pump raw water. Bought it last March for $160K and spent another $10K to get her ship shape, bottom job, head, through hulls serviced, etc. They are out there, you just have to go find one. Also, my searching was the best learning experience I could have gone through. Wouldn't know 25% of what I know now if I had found a boat right out of the gate. Just my $.02. Keep looking!