Loop Lifespan
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The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
I don't fish...never have. I am, however, familiar with the huge cost associated with invasive species in the Great Lakes. The alewife fish invasion in the 1960's left huge banks of dead fish all around the Lakes. Zebra mussels continue to clog power plant intakes, the gobie fish are gobbling up the smaller food fish and killing some species of sport fish with their vicious spines. The lamprey eel is sucking the life out of native fish and rivers and streams are routinely poisoned in an attempt to kill them off. Invasive plant life clogs harbors forcing expensive "harvesting" of weeds. Another nasty invasion is the last thing the Great Lakes need. So, for all you environmentally responsible boaters out there, I implore you to ask the GLCA to lobby for closure of the locks at Chicago.
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Tom.B
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Interesting topic. Spending my whole life in NC, two things are true:
1) People assume the ICW will always be there
2) You will always hear stories about the funding being pulled, but someone always seems to find a way to get it funded
However, the political climate has changed and it is unclear what the future will hold. With the huge federal tax cut on the horizon, it my be that the states could lose federal funding for maintaining the ICW. Could the states keep up? Would they even be willing to? Georgia doesn't seem to put a high emphasis on keeping it up, but Florida does. Would it eventually become a fee-based canal? Would the amount of traffic even be enough to fund the amount of dredging it will take to keep a controlled depth? Would it be unpopular to add an ICW fee (or tax) to boat owners? What about those boats that don't use the ICW or only use it infrequently? Would that be fair?
I will be honest, I don't have enough info to even speculate as to where we go from here. I know it is a complex problem to solve. However, it really doesn't look good at the moment. Unless the dredging of the ICW gets defined as a military priority, it is likely the states are going to be left holding the check and I am pretty sure they will want us rich yacht owners to pay our share.
1) People assume the ICW will always be there
2) You will always hear stories about the funding being pulled, but someone always seems to find a way to get it funded
However, the political climate has changed and it is unclear what the future will hold. With the huge federal tax cut on the horizon, it my be that the states could lose federal funding for maintaining the ICW. Could the states keep up? Would they even be willing to? Georgia doesn't seem to put a high emphasis on keeping it up, but Florida does. Would it eventually become a fee-based canal? Would the amount of traffic even be enough to fund the amount of dredging it will take to keep a controlled depth? Would it be unpopular to add an ICW fee (or tax) to boat owners? What about those boats that don't use the ICW or only use it infrequently? Would that be fair?
I will be honest, I don't have enough info to even speculate as to where we go from here. I know it is a complex problem to solve. However, it really doesn't look good at the moment. Unless the dredging of the ICW gets defined as a military priority, it is likely the states are going to be left holding the check and I am pretty sure they will want us rich yacht owners to pay our share.
Benthic2
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I think the public are like the villagers in the story about the boy who cried wolf. Too many times we have heard " These ____________ are an invasive species and will be the end of the world as we know it !!"
That blank has been filled in with:
Zebra Mussels
Gyspsy Moth
Longhorn Beetle
Killer Bees
Burmese Pythons
Wild Boar
Common Starling
Bad Hombres ( that was a joke )
We keep hearing from environmentalists that if a species goes extinct its awful....and if we get a new species....its awful....and if it gets too cold...or it gets to hot, we are all going to die...or the ocean rises or falls, we are doomed.... Global warming is causing El Nino...La Nina.....stop buringing coal...and oil, but don't use nuclear and wind farms kill birds.......
That blank has been filled in with:
Zebra Mussels
Gyspsy Moth
Longhorn Beetle
Killer Bees
Burmese Pythons
Wild Boar
Common Starling
Bad Hombres ( that was a joke )
We keep hearing from environmentalists that if a species goes extinct its awful....and if we get a new species....its awful....and if it gets too cold...or it gets to hot, we are all going to die...or the ocean rises or falls, we are doomed.... Global warming is causing El Nino...La Nina.....stop buringing coal...and oil, but don't use nuclear and wind farms kill birds.......
boathealer
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Tom.B
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State-run tolls for commercial traffic passing through?
Don't laugh (if you did), it is probably very likely. And not just for commercial. It could be for pleasure boats too.
Great Laker
Senior Member
I have been attending meetings of groups funded to study the Asian Carp invasion into the Great Lakes. Here are a few points that have not been mentioned.
The DNA of these carp has been found upstream of the electric fence on the Illinois River. However, to my knowledge no live fish have been caught upstream.
Asian carp have also come up the Ohio River into Ohio and could soon get into Lake Erie as well. So, Chicago is not the single point of entry.
One of the high risks for these fish getting in the Great Lakes is referred to as the "Yahoo Factor". That is where someone takes a fish from the Illinois and dumps it into a river flowing into the GLs just for a kick. These fish can stay alive out of water for many hours in the back of a vehicle.
It is not clear if the carp can sustain themselves in the GLs as there are few rivers suitable to for the fist to go upstream and spawn and the eggs to survive to maturity.
Finally, the salmon are dropping in numbers due to increased water clarity and lack of small fish food sources. So food supplies are an issue as well.
The DNA of these carp has been found upstream of the electric fence on the Illinois River. However, to my knowledge no live fish have been caught upstream.
Asian carp have also come up the Ohio River into Ohio and could soon get into Lake Erie as well. So, Chicago is not the single point of entry.
One of the high risks for these fish getting in the Great Lakes is referred to as the "Yahoo Factor". That is where someone takes a fish from the Illinois and dumps it into a river flowing into the GLs just for a kick. These fish can stay alive out of water for many hours in the back of a vehicle.
It is not clear if the carp can sustain themselves in the GLs as there are few rivers suitable to for the fist to go upstream and spawn and the eggs to survive to maturity.
Finally, the salmon are dropping in numbers due to increased water clarity and lack of small fish food sources. So food supplies are an issue as well.
dhmeissner
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Sailor of Fortune
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Nobody said anything about hopper dredges...I work for a dredging company and equipment can move sand,rock mud or what have you. I'm not saying its economically feasable. It probably isn't but its done in similar inlet situations worldwide, where economically worthwhile. "dig for floatation isn't a new concept. Equipment always available money, not so much...
Scratchnsaw
Senior Member
Equipment can move sand, rock, mud and whatever. My comments was targeted to our state in particular. You may or may not know that the problem in particular to our region is where do you place the displaced material with all of the development. This is where the hopper dredges and bucket and barge setup comes into play.
You have less set up with the hopper dredges and they can cut a sanded in area from an inlet much more quickly if the inlet is large enough for the equipment to maneuver safely. Then they can dump offshore. But we do not have but a limited amounts of the smaller ones.
And FWIW the folks that like to enjoy our beaches are partial to "just the right type of sand to place on our beaches for the renourishment programs. . Afterall our area is called the Crystal Coast for a very good reason too.
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It's amazing how many environmentally conscious people have boats, cars, etc., but think its ok for them but not for you. The whole EPA should have been shut down years ago.
psneeld
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Have seen hydraulic dredges pump to cleared land, spoil islands or parking lots, drained, then trucked or barged away....or just pumped offshore. Where there is a will there is a way. Plus they have dredged inside the inlets south of Cape Fear in the last year ir so.....the spoil went someplace.
Sure hoppers are in and out quick, but I dont believe they can do an already shallow inlet and also I believe they move a fraction of the sand over time.
Guessing good for maintenance dredging but not in the shoaled in state the inlets I am thinking of are currently in.
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Yep. Doesn't Al Gore have a large private jet?
Back on topic, I participate in several groups that are specifically for boating the great loop. I'll probably never do it myself but I cruise part of it each year.
The thought of the great loop being closed has never come up on those groups so I think it's a pretty far fetched thought. Possible, but not likely. Sure, there's a cost to keep it open but there's also a significant financial gain to the various towns and cities along the way. And there is still commercial traffic on significant parts of the loop.
Someone mentioned tolls and states spending tax money on parts of the loop. There is a toll on the Erie Canal. You buy a pass for certain time periods or the whole season. The tolls may or may not pay the entire cost of maintaining the canal, but like the rest of the loop, the Erie Canal brings a lot of business and money to the towns along its length.
psneeld
Guru
There was an article last year I posted about the Erie Canal and thoughts about shutting it down.
I thought there were some financials about water management thoughout the state and how that would impact much more than just the canal..... so therecare external pressures besides boaters....to a point.
I thought there were some financials about water management thoughout the state and how that would impact much more than just the canal..... so therecare external pressures besides boaters....to a point.
O C Diver
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I don't think anyone is arguing the Loop over the environment. Think it's more a matter of exploring other possibilities. Most of the commercial traffic goes through the Calumet river. It might be possible to close the lock at Chicago and use the spillway to control water level in the Chicago river (they're not going to let it go dry). Then reduce the water flow through the Calumet to locking procedures only, and chlorinate it. That would provide a toxic barrier (along with all the pollution in that waterway ) to keep all living organisms from transiting through. Make the chlorinated section 5 miles long. Chlorine such as what's used in pools, has a relatively short half life in open air. So the water should be chlorine free before it reaches the confluence of the Calumet and Chicago rivers.
Ted
catalinajack
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I wonder why the lake is not already infested given how prolific reproducers they are. Lake water too cold perhaps?
catalinajack
Guru
I am environmentally concious and I do NOT support closing the locks.
catalinajack
Guru
I don't care about your sport fishing. Really, do you think cuz you like fishing your "rights" trump all others?
catalinajack
Guru
Same old tired argument. Using that analogy why should New Yorkers and Californians pay for infrastructure improvements of any sort in small population states? Fund your own if you will.
catalinajack
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And yet the lake is still there.
sunchaser
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Cj
My post wasn't analogy, it was right of the Corps annual budgeting process as they allocate very large funds to the river flood restoration areas, locks and commercial endeavors over recreation. From New Orleans to Minneapolis the Mississippi and Ohio Rivers are huge drivers of the nations water borne commerce. The Savannah area because they are the nations 4th largest container port likewise get major funding to keep those specific waterways open.
Does this mean funds are not headed to the ICW for dredging? Not at all, but it is the proverbial tail wagging the dog analogy - oops.
SeaMoose
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I’ve been boating on Lake Erie nearly 20 years, having relocated here from the west coast. Every year, according to a large number of people, is going to be the last year.
The water levels were predicted to be so low all the marinas would be mud, and there was no money to relocate the public ramps.
Most of the year before last the water was so high I had to wade on the dock, and many of my slip mates extended their dock posts. Large slips don’t have floating docks.
Last year the water was above the dock the first two months of the season.
Then we had the algae scare. The algae bloom, brought on by fertilizer, would kill all the fish in two years. There was a lean year. Last season the perch fishing, the big draw in the Western basin, was some of the best ever with many people catching their limit in a few hours. The fish cleaning places were begging for workers.
Global warming meant the lakes would never freeze again, which would result in all the fish dying off. Two years ago we had record ice, and here we are this year with the entire marina frozen hard already.
Nobody ever got rich preaching that nature is cyclical, we don’t know near as much as we arrogantly assert, and quite often things just work themselves out.
YMMV
The water levels were predicted to be so low all the marinas would be mud, and there was no money to relocate the public ramps.
Most of the year before last the water was so high I had to wade on the dock, and many of my slip mates extended their dock posts. Large slips don’t have floating docks.
Last year the water was above the dock the first two months of the season.
Then we had the algae scare. The algae bloom, brought on by fertilizer, would kill all the fish in two years. There was a lean year. Last season the perch fishing, the big draw in the Western basin, was some of the best ever with many people catching their limit in a few hours. The fish cleaning places were begging for workers.
Global warming meant the lakes would never freeze again, which would result in all the fish dying off. Two years ago we had record ice, and here we are this year with the entire marina frozen hard already.
Nobody ever got rich preaching that nature is cyclical, we don’t know near as much as we arrogantly assert, and quite often things just work themselves out.
YMMV
Pura Vida
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Good information and opinions
Interesting topic, with a lot of good information and opinions. I like this kind of frank expression of opinions and I like others, agree or disagree. I was told not to discuss religion or politics in public by my Mother, if she could advise me today she might include climate change/ man-made global warming to her list. I like to think that as a power boater I/we try to be environmentally responsible without going to the extreme of only boating in a wooden canoe. Climate change, man-made global warming are hot button topics.
I think an "environmentally conscious boater" would sell his/her boat and take up golf or knitting. A person who calls himself "environmentally conscious" wouldn't be buying a boat made from petroleum, filling it up with gas or diesel and then burning the fossil fuel going places he/she doesn't need to go and back at 3 miles per gallon.
Interesting topic, with a lot of good information and opinions. I like this kind of frank expression of opinions and I like others, agree or disagree. I was told not to discuss religion or politics in public by my Mother, if she could advise me today she might include climate change/ man-made global warming to her list. I like to think that as a power boater I/we try to be environmentally responsible without going to the extreme of only boating in a wooden canoe. Climate change, man-made global warming are hot button topics.
Scratchnsaw
Senior Member
Climate change is real and man made. But I don't take a chance on discussing it. But have no fear the CMP [Chemtrail Management Program] is working 24/7 to deal with this for the future generations.
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Scratchnsaw
Senior Member
The reality is, damage to the planet is caused by humans. The solution is to get rid of the humans. Or reduce the population to prehistoric levels.
I try to be environmentally responsible to a degree, but I've worked hard all my life and I'm not going to sit on my porch in a rocking chair until I die.
So, I bought a boat and I burn fossil fuel. I expect everyone on this forum does.
HeadedToTexas
Guru
So true. Plenty have sure gotten rich preaching doom and gloom.
