Boat buying blasphemy

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I rarely do this Kevin but the above was agreat post. Worthy of a second read.

And you’re right they are “really good boats that offer good value”. And another reason there’s not that many on yachtworld is that to move up it would cost too much because the B isn’t a hot item. Probably an advantage as it probably puts the damper on 2’itus.
How much lighter than comparable boats of the same size is your boat?

After watching the sales of the Bayliner Pilothouse models for many years I can attest that they remain a hot item. Many have been sold and moved overseas to places like Australia, Europe and areas around the PI islands. There were many built (a couple of thousand) so many have not been taken care of well and even those 'terrible' examples sell at a lower price as folks attempt to bring them back. The actual number of Pilothouse Bayliners for sale on places like Yachtworld has continued to drop for the last dozen or so years as the well maintained units left in the US continues to decline. A more recent occurrence is to see adds for "Bayliner Pilothouse wanted" in various places like the BOC.
Question about weight - one of the closest copies of Kevin's 47 Bayliner would be the Navigator that comes in at about 25% more weight. Other copies range higher than that at 30-40% more weight for similar size and layout.
 
I love that everyone is passionate about different brands, I have owned Wellcraft, Grady White, Bayliner, Californian and spent a lot of time on Trojans, Alglas, Ulrichson, Silvertons, SeaStar The latter owned b my Father. The one thing I do know is that a boat is only as good as the owner. If you donot use it its pretty much a piece of ****. I see multi million dollar boats in my marina that never go anywhere and never see anyone on board and other less expensive boats that are used every weekend. I have enjoyed every boat I have owned and for the purpose of use none of them has let me down. Of course they are built different but I had the same major brand name components on my Bayliner 3288 as I do on my 48 Californian and they are 2 completely different price point boats. It's funny to hear people talk about other brands, when 98% of people never get outside the sight of land.

Up in the north east here far away from you and I must agree 100%. Most boats we know of up here over these last 30 years do not leave the slip and certainly less than 2% ever leave sight of land. More than one time when planning trips with our 'paper cruising club" we had to have extensive meetings when we planned to go to Block Island and folks would be out of sight of land.
The most common boater is not represented on this Trawler site for sure.
 
1. There's a lot to be said for those beautiful wood interiors on older Taiwan boats. Vast expanses of man-made materials, not so much. Whatever floats your boat.

2. A few years back I did a head job on a 2.0 VW Turbo (2006 Beetle) following cam belt failure. Refurbished head was ~ $600. Head kit another ~$300. A few special tools under $100. VW dealer wanted $3000.

3. Another off topic contribution...just rolled out after 35 years under restoration.

DSCN1099.jpg
 
I rarely do this Kevin but the above was agreat post. Worthy of a second read.

And you’re right they are “really good boats that offer good value”. And another reason there’s not that many on yachtworld is that to move up it would cost too much because the B isn’t a hot item. Probably an advantage as it probably puts the damper on 2’itus.
How much lighter than comparable boats of the same size is your boat?


Thanks Eric!

My boat has a 47’ hull length and weighs 30,000 pounds dry.

I have no clue how much another boat meant to get up on plane that size weighs.

I will agree that heavier is probably better at dislacement speeds in heavy seas. I do not know if heavier in terms of thicker hull is better, comparing two SD boats.

I know that cruising is having fun, and that means picking your travel weather. Nobody likes rough water, and non time constrained cruising to me means avoiding rough water.

Yesterday the California Coast around Santa Barbara was flat calm. A great day for cruising, as we drove in our rent a car. I wished we were out there. Today it might be really bad. Thats why retired cruisers hang in port. What makes one port any better than the next? Why move ports in rought weather?
 
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I see a lot of "sport cruisers" (think Sea Ray, Bayliner, etc.) in my marina but the folks take them out for day cruises and sometimes a weekend spent at a marina 70 miles away. They seldom anchor overnight and never go more than one day's cruise from home.

On the contrary, we take our trawler and go as far and for as long as we want. That is what it was designed and built for.

That said, it wasn't built to cross oceans, that's a different type of boat entirely.

Those sport cruisers are largely owned by a far different demographic. They're younger, have kids, and still working full time plus. They don't have the desire or the time to go at 7 knots. They have a two day weekend and if they want to go 70 nm, then they don't want to spend 10 hours each day on the trip. Rather be to the destination in 3 hours. They'd love to take long cruises but they don't have that luxury. Oh, and don't say summer vacation. Often the two parents can't get off the same time and even if they do one kid has little league baseball, the other has swim team, and the third has ballet.
 
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Metal boats and FG plastic boats very often (perhaps usually) are not fair. That is the surfaces of the hull and house is not flat or (most often) curved. But the curve is not even, constant or “fair”. Most prominent is the waveness on the sides of steel vessels.

Not fair........??

Steel.
 

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this is an excerpt from a discussion about steel boat building

About Al Sorenson & his metal boats...

While now retired and no longer building boats, Al always thought like an amateur builder even though his work was of professional stature. The care and quality of his design work has garnered the admiration of professional designers and boatbuilders nationwide.
Once one of his steel tugs was inadvertently docked near a classic wooden in-water boat show and won the "people’s choice" award. While not an official entry and an embarrassment to him, the judges let it stand since the boat did have a wood cabin and Al was a local institution. More to the point, the steel hull was so fair and true due to his simple, proven methods that no one could tell it was a steel boat.
 
Some vintage things are better but not all. There is a 2009 Impala vs. 1959 Chevrolet Belair collision video online. While difficult to watch the destruction of a beautiful old Chevy, it makes the point of newer cars being safer. It depends on the criteria you are using for better. The ‘59 certainly rode better and increased in value. Steered like an old car... drove one.

I play guitar, and while my older instruments hold value much better than newer ones, they have more issues with noise and shielding than newer guitars. Some of the older build quality isn’t as good as some newer models.

Our 1978 Albin is a solid old boat with a bulletproof Lehman. I can walk completely around the cabin without worrying about slipping under rails like on friends’ “bubble boats”. Some in my marina talk about going places in 45 minutes that take me 2 1/2 hours to get to. Everything in my life goes by too quickly, and our boat gives me the opportunity to enjoy the journey. Our boat and I are both “vintage”.
 
Those sport cruisers are largely owned by a far different demographic. They're younger, have kids, and still working full time plus. They don't have the desire or the time to go at 7 knots. They have a two day weekend and if they want to go 70 nm, then they don't want to spend 10 hours each day on the trip. Rather be to the destination in 3 hours. They'd love to take long cruises but they don't have that luxury. Oh, and don't say summer vacation. Often the two parents can't get off the same time and even if they do one kid has little league baseball, the other has swim team, and the third has ballet.

In some cases that's true but at my age (I was born when FDR was in office), I tend to make friends with people about my age. Our two closest friends (couples) at our marina are close to our age (one younger, one older) and these are the people I was talking about. They have the time but not the desire.
 
Those sport cruisers are largely owned by a far different demographic. They're younger, have kids, and still working full time plus. They don't have the desire or the time to go at 7 knots. They have a two day weekend and if they want to go 70 nm, then they don't want to spend 10 hours each day on the trip. Rather be to the destination in 3 hours. They'd love to take long cruises but they don't have that luxury. Oh, and don't say summer vacation. Often the two parents can't get off the same time and even if they do one kid has little league baseball, the other has swim team, and the third has ballet.


I resemble that remark. EXCEPT... in our 50’s and ZERO kids.

While we didn’t hate the trawler experience, we wanted (needed) to explore further and be able to stay longer. From New Bern, faster helped us be able to do that without “wasting” PTO days just to goto Morehead City or Oriental when we can use them for longer treks to Ocracoke, Bald Head, or Manteo.
 
Odd... we took out grandchildren out on a faster boat (25 mph) and they became scared and wanted Poppy and Grammy’s slow boat.
 
Wifey B: I'm not ever going to get so old that I want to go slow. :rofl: :hide:

Really those who prefer slow as in 7 knots or so are a very small part of the total boating population. They're the population many here know best because they are around them most.

In South Florida we have:

Center Consoles, both fishing and family. Same need for speed as SF's, but faster. Very sizable group.

Cruisers and Runabouts, Sea Ray types, with many other brands tossed in. Cruise the coast, to the Bahamas, to the Keys. Normally limited time and speed is important. Large group.

Sportfishermen, got to go fast to get to the fish, time's a wastin'. Very sizable group.

Small "yachts". All 50-100', Princess, Prestige, Riva, Sunseeker, Azimut, Hatteras. In many areas this would be a small group, but it's large here.

Trawler types-semi displacement. This is the GB's, Marlows, Mainships, Swift Trawlers. Not a go slow group necessarily, but a go medium group. I'd say this group has shrunk with the demise of GB and the poor offerings. So smaller group. I include the Tugs in this but they're not much of a factor here anyway.

Mega Yachts-100'+. It looks like a huge group but that's because they're big. In terms of number of boats, it's a very small group even here. Now, speed wise, while many are capable of more, most do the majority of their cruising at around 12 knots.

Trawler types-full displacement, 8 knots or less. Nordhavn is the primary visibility of this group here with some KK tossed in. Definitely a very small group of boats in South Florida.

Now, this picture would look very different in other areas. Would love for someone to do a similar breakdown for their area with perhaps the same groupings.

Rank these groups
CC's
Cruisers and Runabouts
SF's
Yachts 50-100'
Trawler Type-Semi Displacement
Mega Yachts 100'+
Trawler type-full displacement.

I'd guess here the full displacement, go slow, trawler types are less than 2% of all boats. Toss in the Semi Displacement that many on here have and you'd then get over 5%.

Really two types of go slow groups here in SF, the Nordhavn/KK type at 6-7 knots and largely retired and in no hurry plus some are for long range cruising. Slow is very practical and less costly.

Then the mega yachts. Slow being 10-12 knots. Many are steel, full displacement, 14 knots max. Others can run 15 knots, some even cruise at 20 knots and many of these cruise faster when owner aboard, but a tremendous amount of their movement is only with crew and it's repositioning. They go slow for that to save money. Yes, owners of $40 million boats will have them repositioned at 10-12 knots to save money.
 
Odd... we took out grandchildren out on a faster boat (25 mph) and they became scared and wanted Poppy and Grammy’s slow boat.

Wifey B: And our three year old niece and another three year old are as bad as me. We had to explain why we were so slow in a slow speed zone. Now the sea conditions might make a difference, but they both love 35 knots even. :D

Guess I corrupted them.
 
Wifey B: One addendum to my post on boat types. Was power only. In some areas you'd find more sailboats than power. :ermm:
 
When I shopped for my boat, I was flexible regarding speed. I considered planing boats, SD, and full displacement. The main issue was I wanted a boat that I could use year round, in a variety of conditions. Not just when the weather was perfect.

I see boats that sit at the dock because it's too windy, because it's not windy enough, because its raining, because its a bit rough. I wanted a boat that could be used 75% of the year in an area that gets some ugly seas. It took some looking, but I found it.
 
Wifey B: I'm not ever going to get so old that I want to go slow. :rofl: :hide:

Really those who prefer slow as in 7 knots or so are a very small part of the total boating population. They're the population many here know best because they are around them most.

In South Florida we have:

Center Consoles, both fishing and family. Same need for speed as SF's, but faster. Very sizable group.

Cruisers and Runabouts, Sea Ray types, with many other brands tossed in. Cruise the coast, to the Bahamas, to the Keys. Normally limited time and speed is important. Large group.

Sportfishermen, got to go fast to get to the fish, time's a wastin'. Very sizable group.

Small "yachts". All 50-100', Princess, Prestige, Riva, Sunseeker, Azimut, Hatteras. In many areas this would be a small group, but it's large here.

Trawler types-semi displacement. This is the GB's, Marlows, Mainships, Swift Trawlers. Not a go slow group necessarily, but a go medium group. I'd say this group has shrunk with the demise of GB and the poor offerings. So smaller group. I include the Tugs in this but they're not much of a factor here anyway.

Mega Yachts-100'+. It looks like a huge group but that's because they're big. In terms of number of boats, it's a very small group even here. Now, speed wise, while many are capable of more, most do the majority of their cruising at around 12 knots.

Trawler types-full displacement, 8 knots or less. Nordhavn is the primary visibility of this group here with some KK tossed in. Definitely a very small group of boats in South Florida.

Now, this picture would look very different in other areas. Would love for someone to do a similar breakdown for their area with perhaps the same groupings.

Rank these groups
CC's
Cruisers and Runabouts
SF's
Yachts 50-100'
Trawler Type-Semi Displacement
Mega Yachts 100'+
Trawler type-full displacement.

I'd guess here the full displacement, go slow, trawler types are less than 2% of all boats. Toss in the Semi Displacement that many on here have and you'd then get over 5%.

Really two types of go slow groups here in SF, the Nordhavn/KK type at 6-7 knots and largely retired and in no hurry plus some are for long range cruising. Slow is very practical and less costly.

Then the mega yachts. Slow being 10-12 knots. Many are steel, full displacement, 14 knots max. Others can run 15 knots, some even cruise at 20 knots and many of these cruise faster when owner aboard, but a tremendous amount of their movement is only with crew and it's repositioning. They go slow for that to save money. Yes, owners of $40 million boats will have them repositioned at 10-12 knots to save money.

That's because you live in south Florida, which has the highest ratio of go fast boats (and, people willing to run them fast in close quarters and heavy boat traffic) of any place I ever lived!

The funniest story being from a friend who worked at Cigarette, and actually watched one of their customers firewall his boat at their dock and run it up onto the bank across the canal from them!

They drive cars with just as much skill. :D
 
That's because you live in south Florida, which has the highest ratio of go fast boats (and, people willing to run them fast in close quarters and heavy boat traffic) of any place I ever lived!

The funniest story being from a friend who worked at Cigarette, and actually watched one of their customers firewall his boat at their dock and run it up onto the bank across the canal from them!

They drive cars with just as much skill. :D

Up here in the Northeast marinas the number of power boats that are limited to hull speed are easily less than 5%. At our closest marina (Northport) the % is less than that but there are a few marinas in Ct where hull speed boats are much more common.
 
That's because you live in south Florida, which has the highest ratio of go fast boats (and, people willing to run them fast in close quarters and heavy boat traffic) of any place I ever lived!

Wifey B: That's why I encourage those from other areas to respond. One NE reporter said more fast than slow. SF is made up of slow boats compared to the lake we lived on in NC. ;)
 
If I were to post a percentage of types of boats at my marina it would be vastly different than the percentage at a couple larger marinas ten miles away.
 
If I were to post a percentage of types of boats at my marina it would be vastly different than the percentage at a couple larger marinas ten miles away.

Wifey B: Well, what about your area, including your marina and the couple of others? Mine were all of South Florida, not a specific marina or small area. :)
 
Almost all marinas, north or south, that I visited, the sailboats outnumber the powerboats. (Some specific exceptions, high density fishing areas or shallow water entries for example). Consequently if I am running at 8-10 knots I am faster that more than 50% of the boats out there. (I am excluding trailer-launched boats on my little personal survey)

So if more than 50% of total boats out there are sailing or motoring at 8 knots or less, then it must be what the majority are comfortable with?

In reality all the posts of guesses of ratio of types of boats ‘out there’ can be substantiated with insurers statistics, I’m sure. Then they would need to be supplemented with exhaustive surveys of areas of use, frequency of use, percentage of liveaboards, active loopers, active other travelers and transients, loss histories and all the other variables that could possibly, just possibly, paint a hazy picture of what the true nature of boat ownership in any area really looks like.
 
Almost all marinas, north or south, that I visited, the sailboats outnumber the powerboats. (Some specific exceptions, high density fishing areas or shallow water entries for example). Consequently if I am running at 8-10 knots I am faster that more than 50% of the boats out there. (I am excluding trailer-launched boats on my little personal survey)

.

Wifey B: Marinas around us like 10:1 or maybe even 20:1 Power vs. Sail. Not even Sails Marina has any sailboats. :nonono: Where oh where have they all gone. :lol:
 
I dunno. Seems unlikely that they evaporated. Just drove by a huge marina here in Olympia (Swantown? something like that?). It was all of 75/25 sail/power.
 
I dunno. Seems unlikely that they evaporated. Just drove by a huge marina here in Olympia (Swantown? something like that?). It was all of 75/25 sail/power.

Wifey B: Most are not going to pay FLL marina rates. Yes, I've seen the Washington marinas and many other places, just not that way here. :)
 

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