Boat buying blasphemy
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The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
McGillicuddy
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Can’t you get on line and find a used engine from a recycler? My wife burned up the motor of her Mercedes C230K that had 90k miles on it. I was able to find a good replacement engine from a wrecked car that had 65k miles on it for about $3k. I’d bet you can find a rabbit engine on line pretty inexpensively.
Nomad Willy
Guru
McGillicuddy,
It’s a 2000 so it’s 17 years old.
We can and probably will buy a equal car or better for$2,500.
See Harbor Chat for more car talk.
It’s a 2000 so it’s 17 years old.
We can and probably will buy a equal car or better for$2,500.
See Harbor Chat for more car talk.
markpierce
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From direct, personal observation (but not me because I'm a perfect driver and have an outstanding guardian angel), relatively minor accidents result in the total write-off of many automobiles. Many/most automobiles now are designed to collapse. ... Hopefully, my steel boat will be an exception.
Nomad Willy
Guru
Well Mark we hit a humpback whale w/o damage in our Plastic boat.
So I’m assuming your steel vessel is good to go.
So I’m assuming your steel vessel is good to go.
BruceK
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There are strict service instructions on replacing timing belts. Expensive job, usually by authorized dealer, special tools being needed, I had to do a 3L V6 Passat, not cheap. If overlooked, and failure ensues, all hell breaks loose in the engine, pistons hitting valves, etc. Some euro cars are reverting to chain. My old Alfas had heavy double chains driving DOHC, but lots of engines are quad cam these days.
I'll see your Buick and raise you a 1965 GTO
Benthic2
Guru
Judge !!
Nomad Willy
Guru
BruceK,
My old 81 Mazda had double row chain. I gave it to a girlfriend at 250K mi. Now my little Nissan has a belt. Good car for 294000 mi. It dosn’t know the word sport and it pleases me fine. I usually drive it and leave the Avalon at home if it’s dry weather.
3L Passat .. is that the one w the strange engine? How do they compare w the Jetta? About what one would expect or some things way different?
My old 81 Mazda had double row chain. I gave it to a girlfriend at 250K mi. Now my little Nissan has a belt. Good car for 294000 mi. It dosn’t know the word sport and it pleases me fine. I usually drive it and leave the Avalon at home if it’s dry weather.
3L Passat .. is that the one w the strange engine? How do they compare w the Jetta? About what one would expect or some things way different?
There was an earlier post regarding the importance of a boat’s mass...saying essentially “between similar boats, is heavier better?”
For a displacement power boat, heavier probably IS better in rough seas. In the ICW it might not matter, or even be noticeable.
Sailboats got lighter over the years as new material strength-to-weight ratios improved with technology. The same technology allowed for hull shapes that weren’t previously possible. (My dad equates lighter with cheaper in almost any product.)
But for the most part the big result of this new engineering was that the lighter (“more buoyant”) boats actually sailed OVER the waves instead of through them. They were also stiffer and faster than their elders in any sea condition. I’ve sailed across the Gulf in both...and lighter was more comfortable.
But I’m not saying this applies to trawlers - I believe it’s the opposite except that lighter super structures are generally desirable. Anyway, most cruising powerboat owners won’t ever test their hull’s limit so if you’re in that group, you at least have more choices of brands that will meet your needs for many years to come.
(ps: An analogy for the motor heads: It will be interesting to see if Ford’s aluminum pickup chassis will perform as well as steel over the long term. But from a distance, most pickups look pretty much the same, even with that significant, unseen difference. Sorta like a marina full of white, ‘plastic’ boats.
For a displacement power boat, heavier probably IS better in rough seas. In the ICW it might not matter, or even be noticeable.
Sailboats got lighter over the years as new material strength-to-weight ratios improved with technology. The same technology allowed for hull shapes that weren’t previously possible. (My dad equates lighter with cheaper in almost any product.)
But for the most part the big result of this new engineering was that the lighter (“more buoyant”) boats actually sailed OVER the waves instead of through them. They were also stiffer and faster than their elders in any sea condition. I’ve sailed across the Gulf in both...and lighter was more comfortable.
But I’m not saying this applies to trawlers - I believe it’s the opposite except that lighter super structures are generally desirable. Anyway, most cruising powerboat owners won’t ever test their hull’s limit so if you’re in that group, you at least have more choices of brands that will meet your needs for many years to come.
(ps: An analogy for the motor heads: It will be interesting to see if Ford’s aluminum pickup chassis will perform as well as steel over the long term. But from a distance, most pickups look pretty much the same, even with that significant, unseen difference. Sorta like a marina full of white, ‘plastic’ boats.
BruceK
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On reflection, 2.8L. Belt had to be replaced at, from memory, 5 years. Probably an engine used in Audi too, some suspension parts were stamped Audi. Current Peugeot 508 belt is 8 years I think. A gamble going beyond it. I`d be checking if/when the Nissan belt was changed, though at that mileage it`s probably not the biggest concern.
Donsan
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He didn't mention what model Nissan but I bought my daughter a new Sentra back around 1997 and they claimed it had a chain and not a belt.
FF
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Our summer car a 2010 Honda CRV was selected as it has an auto tranny (I like being shiftless) that could flat tow behind a motor home , and the cam is chain driven.
Like many replacement things, time in engine or miles is key.
Why spend a hundred or two every so often on a car that seldom sees 6,000 miles a year?
More important than chain cam drive are diesels that meet the air police demands with no computer .
Like many replacement things, time in engine or miles is key.
Why spend a hundred or two every so often on a car that seldom sees 6,000 miles a year?
More important than chain cam drive are diesels that meet the air police demands with no computer .
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- Now boatless - sold 6/2018
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Don't be too hasty there Eric. An overhead job would still be much cheaper than buying a new or near new comparable vehicle. Those Golfs are nice cars. My brother just bought the latest GTI, but he still has one of the original Mk 1. Golf GTI, and it still drives well, and he loves it, and can't bear to part with it. I'd say it's a classic now.
Did the timing belt get changed at the stipulated interval of about 100,000km, (not miles)..?
Nomad Willy
Guru
Don't be too hasty there Eric. An overhead job would still be much cheaper than buying a new or near new comparable vehicle. Those Golfs are nice cars. My brother just bought the latest GTI, but he still has one of the original Mk 1. Golf GTI, and it still drives well, and he loves it, and can't bear to part with it. I'd say it's a classic now.
Did the timing belt get changed at the stipulated interval of about 100,000km, (not miles)..?
That’s what I thought.
But valves are steel and pistons are aluminum. Could blow out a piston in another 5,000 miles.
We are going to fix our old beater Toyota Sienna for Chris to drive temp.
There are numerous 5 cyl Rabbits on CL so probably leaning that way. But while Chris is driving the Sienna I’ll check out the Golf. It’s a little black 4dr turbo. She calls/called it her zippy car and it is quite fast and handles well.
Re the Rabbits I talked to a used car dealer that almost universally had old VW’s on his lot. He says the Rabbits are the best old VW’s but people are shy of them remembering the tinny Rabbits of the 70’s. He may be right. I suspect they are all 5cyl.
I think I’ll try the pluging the spark plug hole first but use a stick instead of my thumb.
Re the Nissan it’s the very rare Stanza. And there’s nothing much wrong w it that isn’t just old car things like the pass door is sticky to open. But Chris never complains about it. The sterring rack feels a bit odd when nearly hard over. And there’s a small rust hole in the bottom of the pass door. But the belt is still about 20k mi till due. Donsan the 2 liter Stanza does have a belt. I put new tires and a clutch in it but it’s been very dependable now for about 5 years.
angus99,
Love the T. The AH 3000 also.
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ksanders
Moderator Emeritus
Back to the original issue at hand...
First, the OP is 100% correct. Almost ANY boat made is suitable for Coastal Cruising.
I’ll repeat that, but a tad stronger this time ANY production boat, over a certain size class is perfectly suitable for Coastal Cruising.
Now it’s time to dispell some Trawler Forum Myths...
Heavier does not mean “better built” for Coastal Cruising. Boats that are meant to travel above displacement speed hugly benefit from light weight constructon. The reason is simple... Lighter boats are more easily driven up on plane, so they require less Horsepower, and less fuel to run above displacement speeds.
Heavier in terms of 1970-1980’s Taiwan Trawlers does not mean they are better built. The Taiwan Trawler era was at the infancy of fiberglass technology. The manufacturers simply did not know the strength of fiberglass yet, so they overbuilt intentionally. As the technology matured they invented techniques like vacume bagging, and also realized thast fiberglass is stronger than they originally envisioned, and that they could make a hull thinner, and it would still stand up to the punshment of use.
Lets also quench another Myth. The Taiwan Trawler was not some super duper high quality piece of work. They were in general made by a variety of yards, and many were knock offs of designs by famous yards, and naval designers. They were put together as a price point production boat menat to fill a market need. The Taiwan trawlers have very nice wood interiors simply because wood was plentiful in Asia, and labor was cheap.
Guys, when I set out to buy a 50 foot class Coastal Cruiser in 2011 I had a budget of a bit over 250K to work with. I could have bought ANY 1980’s Taiwan trawler on the market. Yet I CHOSE to spend that money on a Bayliner 4788. Why??? Was I just stupid? Was I uneducated? Did I waste my money on junk?
No, I looked at my mission profile, which was Coastal Cruising along the West Coast of America from Mexico to Alaska, and bought a very good boat to fulfill that mission, for that level of investment
What I got was a boat that is comfortable from 7-15 knots, allowing me to travel at slow speeds when I wanted, and at high speeds when they better suited my needs.
I got a boat with a foam core on the decks, to avoid deck rot
A vacume bagged foam cored hull for strength, and light weight, a hull design that has NEVER suffered a delaminaton.
An alumanium superstructure to save weight, and have the cabin space I wanted and the seaworthiness I needed by keeping topside weight low.
Modern diesel engines with parts and service available anywhere
Aluminum tanks for longevity.
A boat designed in America by the largest team of Naval Architects in the industry, and built in America in a modern plant, using modern construction methods.
Today, the Bayliner 4788 is the most prolific 50’ class boat that has ever been built in terms of numbers of completed hulls.
Yet, when you look on Yachtworld, you see very few for sale. The reason for that is simple, they are really good boats, that offer a great value.
So...
Yes, I agree completely with the OP. No a Bayliner is not a KK, or a Nordhavn, or a fleming. It is a production boat perfectly suited for Coastal Cruising.
First, the OP is 100% correct. Almost ANY boat made is suitable for Coastal Cruising.
I’ll repeat that, but a tad stronger this time ANY production boat, over a certain size class is perfectly suitable for Coastal Cruising.
Now it’s time to dispell some Trawler Forum Myths...
Heavier does not mean “better built” for Coastal Cruising. Boats that are meant to travel above displacement speed hugly benefit from light weight constructon. The reason is simple... Lighter boats are more easily driven up on plane, so they require less Horsepower, and less fuel to run above displacement speeds.
Heavier in terms of 1970-1980’s Taiwan Trawlers does not mean they are better built. The Taiwan Trawler era was at the infancy of fiberglass technology. The manufacturers simply did not know the strength of fiberglass yet, so they overbuilt intentionally. As the technology matured they invented techniques like vacume bagging, and also realized thast fiberglass is stronger than they originally envisioned, and that they could make a hull thinner, and it would still stand up to the punshment of use.
Lets also quench another Myth. The Taiwan Trawler was not some super duper high quality piece of work. They were in general made by a variety of yards, and many were knock offs of designs by famous yards, and naval designers. They were put together as a price point production boat menat to fill a market need. The Taiwan trawlers have very nice wood interiors simply because wood was plentiful in Asia, and labor was cheap.
Guys, when I set out to buy a 50 foot class Coastal Cruiser in 2011 I had a budget of a bit over 250K to work with. I could have bought ANY 1980’s Taiwan trawler on the market. Yet I CHOSE to spend that money on a Bayliner 4788. Why??? Was I just stupid? Was I uneducated? Did I waste my money on junk?
No, I looked at my mission profile, which was Coastal Cruising along the West Coast of America from Mexico to Alaska, and bought a very good boat to fulfill that mission, for that level of investment
What I got was a boat that is comfortable from 7-15 knots, allowing me to travel at slow speeds when I wanted, and at high speeds when they better suited my needs.
I got a boat with a foam core on the decks, to avoid deck rot
A vacume bagged foam cored hull for strength, and light weight, a hull design that has NEVER suffered a delaminaton.
An alumanium superstructure to save weight, and have the cabin space I wanted and the seaworthiness I needed by keeping topside weight low.
Modern diesel engines with parts and service available anywhere
Aluminum tanks for longevity.
A boat designed in America by the largest team of Naval Architects in the industry, and built in America in a modern plant, using modern construction methods.
Today, the Bayliner 4788 is the most prolific 50’ class boat that has ever been built in terms of numbers of completed hulls.
Yet, when you look on Yachtworld, you see very few for sale. The reason for that is simple, they are really good boats, that offer a great value.
So...
Yes, I agree completely with the OP. No a Bayliner is not a KK, or a Nordhavn, or a fleming. It is a production boat perfectly suited for Coastal Cruising.
Last edited:
ksanders
Moderator Emeritus
Bayliner owners are so cute sometimes
Navigator owners are as well. They are in the same boat literally
Tom.B
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Navigator owners are as well. They are in the same boat literally
Actually, since my earlier thread about having a cored hull, I (actually Bess) discovered the real hull plug is solid glass (1”) and the plug I thought was the hull was the deck.
Lol. I still win. Google W30. 500+ torque monster that almost hooks predictably on 305 tires. If only it could pass a gas station.
ksanders
Moderator Emeritus
Actually, since my earlier thread about having a cored hull, I (actually Bess) discovered the real hull plug is solid glass (1”) and the plug I thought was the hull was the deck.
I was meaning Navigatrors as production boats.
Nomad Willy
Guru
Back to the original issue at hand...
First, the OP is 100% correct. Almost ANY boat made is suitable for Coastal Cruising.
I’ll repeat that, but a tad stronger this time ANY production boat, over a certain size class is perfectly suitable for Coastal Cruising.
Now it’s time to dispell some Trawler Forum Myths...
Heavier does not mean “better built” for Coastal Cruising. Boats that are meant to travel above displacement speed hugly benefit from light weight constructon. The reason is simple... Lighter boats are more easily driven up on plane, so they require less Horsepower, and less fuel to run above displacement speeds.
Heavier in terms of 1970-1980’s Taiwan Trawlers does not mean they are better built. The Taiwan Trawler era was at the infancy of fiberglass technology. The manufacturers simply did not know the strength of fiberglass yet, so they overbuilt intentionally. As the technology matured they invented techniques like vacume bagging, and also realized thast fiberglass is stronger than they originally envisioned, and that they could make a hull thinner, and it would still stand up to the punshment of use.
Lets also quench another Myth. The Taiwan Trawler was not some super duper high quality piece of work. They were in general made by a variety of yards, and many were knock offs of designs by famous yards, and naval designers. They were put together as a price point production boat menat to fill a market need. The Taiwan trawlers have very nice wood interiors simply because wood was plentiful in Asia, and labor was cheap.
Guys, when I set out to buy a 50 foot class Coastal Cruiser in 2011 I had a budget of a bit over 250K to work with. I could have bought ANY 1980’s Taiwan trawler on the market. Yet I CHOSE to spend that money on a Bayliner 4788. Why??? Was I just stupid? Was I uneducated? Did I waste my money on junk?
No, I looked at my mission profile, which was Coastal Cruising along the West Coast of America from Mexico to Alaska, and bought a very good boat to fulfill that mission, for that level of investment
What I got was a boat that is comfortable from 7-15 knots, allowing me to travel at slow speeds when I wanted, and at high speeds when they better suited my needs.
I got a boat with a foam core on the decks, to avoid deck rot
A vacume bagged foam cored hull for strength, and light weight, a hull design that has NEVER suffered a delaminaton.
An alumanium superstructure to save weight, and have the cabin space I wanted and the seaworthiness I needed by keeping topside weight low.
Modern diesel engines with parts and service available anywhere
Aluminum tanks for longevity.
A boat designed in America by the largest team of Naval Architects in the industry, and built in America in a modern plant, using modern construction methods.
Today, the Bayliner 4788 is the most prolific 50’ class boat that has ever been built in terms of numbers of completed hulls.
Yet, when you look on Yachtworld, you see very few for sale. The reason for that is simple, they are really good boats, that offer a great value.
So...
Yes, I agree completely with the OP. No a Bayliner is not a KK, or a Nordhavn, or a fleming. It is a production boat perfectly suited for Coastal Cruising.
I rarely do this Kevin but the above was agreat post. Worthy of a second read.
And you’re right they are “really good boats that offer good value”. And another reason there’s not that many on yachtworld is that to move up it would cost too much because the B isn’t a hot item. Probably an advantage as it probably puts the damper on 2’itus.
How much lighter than comparable boats of the same size is your boat?
Benthic2
Guru
my "Judge" comment was related to the Pontiac GTO posting. There was a souped up version of the GTO called the "Judge".....very cool car...(as have the others that have been posted)
catalinajack
Guru
Here, here!
knotheadcharters
Senior Member
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- Amar la Vida
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- 1989 Carver Californian 48' MY
I love that everyone is passionate about different brands, I have owned Wellcraft, Grady White, Bayliner, Californian and spent a lot of time on Trojans, Alglas, Ulrichson, Silvertons, SeaStar The latter owned b my Father. The one thing I do know is that a boat is only as good as the owner. If you donot use it its pretty much a piece of ****. I see multi million dollar boats in my marina that never go anywhere and never see anyone on board and other less expensive boats that are used every weekend. I have enjoyed every boat I have owned and for the purpose of use none of them has let me down. Of course they are built different but I had the same major brand name components on my Bayliner 3288 as I do on my 48 Californian and they are 2 completely different price point boats. It's funny to hear people talk about other brands, when 98% of people never get outside the sight of land.
FF
Guru
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I’ll repeat that, but a tad stronger this time ANY production boat, over a certain size class is perfectly suitable for Coastal Cruising.
I have a problem with "over a certain size" concept.
Both the AICW and Loop have been run on jet skis.
In the 1960 era outboards had run from the Gulf to Chicago, with no safety issues.
The question is how small the vessel can be and still serve the needs of the occupants.
Internal comfort is not a matter of mere volume , it is a matter of excellent space use.
Even a winter in the Bahamas could be done in comfort on a 25ft IO, if set up properly.
I have a problem with "over a certain size" concept.
Both the AICW and Loop have been run on jet skis.
In the 1960 era outboards had run from the Gulf to Chicago, with no safety issues.
The question is how small the vessel can be and still serve the needs of the occupants.
Internal comfort is not a matter of mere volume , it is a matter of excellent space use.
Even a winter in the Bahamas could be done in comfort on a 25ft IO, if set up properly.
