Boat buying blasphemy

ranger42c said:

Think "mobile water bed."

-Chris

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Chris,
Would you rather sleep on the floor than a waterbed?

Well I failed.
I was trying to point out that there are some things on older vehicles that were better. Not to imply that old boats and cars were better overall. Certianly not.

There was at least one steel pleasureboat before 1950 but it was so heavy it didn’t last long. And re Marks comment all steel boats are covered w wood, fabrics and plastic because the essence of the parent material is so objectionable.

And generally speaking modern cars ride like a buckboard compared to older cars. A 1954 Dodge rode really nice but had poor handling. Not for a minute do I think the old Dodge is better overall as transportation.

Keith,
Your comment sounds like a present day boater or TF members whining about painting or varnishing. In the 50’s Saturdays was car maintenance day in England and similar in the US.

I sold my 73 Buick and drive an 06 Avalon. Neither one was/is perfect. My wife’s VW Golf just broke it’s timing belt. It’s a great car and she loves it but I think it’s scrap now. None of the older cars even had timing belts. Not all is better.

ljk said:

I like this one almost as much as Break Out Another Thousand:

"THERE'S NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT"

The last time this came to mind, I was on an "multi-hundred thousand dollar" center console Yellowfin (light boat) pounding through 4 foot seas for 2 hours. How I wished I was back on an old 38 or 40 foot Betram or Viking (heavy boats)!

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There is a reason some sell those old heavy boats and opt for ones 3X faster.

Though some go back to the old "gold" standard for a reason also.

Another issue with boats like Yellowfins.....a lot of boaters dont know how to run them in snotty conditions to get the best ride. Not saying your experience was because of that....but many near sellers after riding with the right skipoers wind up keeping them.

Nomad Willy said:

And generally speaking modern cars ride like a buckboard compared to older cars. A 1954 Dodge rode really nice but had poor handling. Not for a minute do I think the old Dodge is better overall as transportation.

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I know some, me included, that would not necessarily agree. Yes modern car have better handling, all electronic traction control, almost impossible to get them drifting. Does this make them more enjoyable to drive? Depends for who, for most of consumer yes, for me surely not. Try to jump in an old school Caterham and you will feel the difference between driving and being drived.

Boat wise yes modern boat are maybe more reliable (not even sure) but being reliable and riding with style are different things.

So better or not really depends on your own preference and what you consider the most important, just a personal consideration and obviously not objective.

L

ljk said:

I like this one almost as much as Break Out Another Thousand:

"THERE'S NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT"

The last time this came to mind, I was on an "multi-hundred thousand dollar" center console Yellowfin (light boat) pounding through 4 foot seas for 2 hours. How I wished I was back on an old 38 or 40 foot Betram or Viking (heavy boats)!

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In most vehicles theres lots of different situations for the weight to be perfect in. Trawlers most of the time are too heavy and would be better off loosing a few thousand pounds. And at times when there are only small waves or “chop” mor weight would be welcome. We went from a 4000lb boat to a 16000lb boat and we now experence a much more pleasant and slower motion.
So at any one moment you may prefer more or less weight.

I remember a conversation in a cafe in Juneau whereas two men were arguing about their new boats. They were shipped up by barge so the weight of each was a known and they were the same length and width. One guy was sure his boat was better because it was heavier. The two boats were a Bayliner and a Reinelle. The R was the heavier boat. I was betting on the B but at times I’d choose the R.

But to the Question I’d say lighter is better until it’s too light forr what it was designed for ... or too heavy.
Most boats aquire a lot of weight over time and several owners. If your boat performs badly fuel burn or speed wise or handles poorly or even dangerously in following seas you may have an obse boat.

Most boats are designed for a certain weight range. Consult w the dealer or directly w the designer for a more objective answer.

Lou_tribal said:

I know some, me included, that would not necessarily agree. Yes modern car have better handling, all electronic traction control, almost impossible to get them drifting. Does this make them more enjoyable to drive? Depends for who, for most of consumer yes, for me surely not. Try to jump in an old school Caterham and you will feel the difference between driving and being drived.

Boat wise yes modern boat are maybe more reliable (not even sure) but being reliable and riding with style are different things.

So better or not really depends on your own preference and what you consider the most important, just a personal consideration and obviously not objective.

L

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Lou,
If you drive sideways you better get a modern car.
But an older car may be more fun and easier to control.

Nomad Willy said:

Lou,
If you drive sideways you better get a modern car.
But an older car may be more fun and easier to control.

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Indeed like you said it all about fun

L

Nomad Willy said:

Chris,
Would you rather sleep on the floor than a waterbed?

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Nope, but then I also try to avoid sleeping while driving, too.



I lament the lost size and mass of many older cars. For me, a "full size" car is something like a big '64 Buick/Lincoln/whatever... whereas today's "full size" cars will often fit in the trunk of their older predecessors.

But I'm only thinking more weight/mass and size (crush zones) are good because other people keep crashing into us. I'd prefer an Abrams. Maybe with a cow-catcher to better wade through all the debris created by the canon as somebody crosses the center line towards us...

-Chris

Nomad Willy said:

Sunchaser wrote;
“Kinda like saying my old 1985 Lincoln Continental has the same quality and engineering as a 2018 model. Oh well, Happy New Year.”

New things are better?
That’s often an assumption and very often it’s true. But very often it’s not.
There isn’t a car on the road now (I’ll bet) that is as comfortable as that Lincoln. And that’s a very important part of the car’s design.
The body parts of new cars are weak. If you were to fall and hit the fender or door of a new car there would likely be expensive damage.
New cars have tires that are very noisy. Old cars were far more quiet and smooth.

Boats are the same in this regard. Wood boats were quieter. But more important they were visually warm and inviting. FG boats and especially metal boats fall way short on this very important quality of a pleasure boat.
Metal boats and FG plastic boats very often (perhaps usually) are not fair. That is the surfaces of the hull and house is not flat or (most often) curved. But the curve is not even, constant or “fair”. Most prominent is the waveness on the sides of steel vessels. It matters very little on freighters or warships but is unsightly on a pleasure boat. But average wood boats were almost always fair.

When it comes to boats and cars if I could buy 1955 models I probably would. I’m an old man though and my tastes lean toward the past frequently but industry and consumers have turned their backs on many elements of quality in vehicles.

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When it comes to knowledge of modern cars, you are a very good boat designer.

I hope we can all agree that the contemporary equivalent of an '85 Lincoln is a 2017 Lincoln, not a 12 year-old Toyota Avalon!

Lou_tribal said:

I know some, me included, that would not necessarily agree. Yes modern car have better handling, all electronic traction control, almost impossible to get them drifting. Does this make them more enjoyable to drive? Depends for who, for most of consumer yes, for me surely not. Try to jump in an old school Caterham and you will feel the difference between driving and being driven.
L

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Part of modern car handling difference is the wretched fwd. You can do much more with rwd. Not many rwd,surprising releases are the (related) Hyundai and Kia rwd models, I`ve driven neither but reviews are good. New Alfa Giulia too, but it`s FIAT related (Fix It Again Tony).

brucek said:

but it`s fiat related (fix it again tony).

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lol!

L

BruceK said:

Part of modern car handling difference is the wretched fwd. You can do much more with rwd. Not many rwd,surprising releases are the (related) Hyundai and Kia rwd models, I`ve driven neither but reviews are good. New Alfa Giulia too, but it`s FIAT related (Fix It Again Tony).

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Bruce,
That’s interesting.
I sure like old cars but rwd is not to my liking actually. However if you want to apply a lot of power at very low speeds I definitely prefer rwd. It’s just more graceful and dosn’t seem like it’s doing harm to the car. Pulling onto a paved road from an unpaved fwd gets the nod from me as you can apply power much sooner.

Just like boat drives.
Straight shaft under is better in many ways and IO is better for other ways.

Yes Eric, it all happens much earlier on a dirt surface. I would put the rally car(rwd) into oversteer entering a corner, using a flick of the wheel or dab of brakes or both, so the back was under control, not about to go into oversteer of its own accord.
Happy New Year guys! It`s midday on NYE here already.

Hey Bruce,
Have you seen the big black limo drifting around a race track at about 80mph ..... backwards?
Yahoo I think.

Nomad Willy said:

Hey Bruce,
Have you seen the big black limo drifting around a race track at about 80mph ..... backwards?
Yahoo I think.

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I have not but will watch out.
Our Police, used to rwd V8 GM/Holden Commodore/Monaros, and turbo Ford Falcon V8`s with suspension tweaks,and with no more local car manufacture, are opting for V8 Chrysler 300s. We had a 6cyl as a rental car in Canada, it was a better car than I expected.

I remember the first time I drove my new Chevy Avalanche truck in 2005. My thought as I was cruising down the highway in the big leather armchair was “this is the ride quality that Rolls Royce aspired to in the 60’s”. [emoji12]

Benthic2 said:

With cars there has been huge improvements. It used to be something to get a car to roll over the odometer at 100k miles, now....not so much.

When was the last time anyone had to:

clean and gap their plugs
replace a muffler
have a frame welded
replace a master cylinder
blew a head gasket
had a carbeurator cleaned
put water in their battery
replaced a distributor cap
replaced a radiator or a water pump
replaced a starter/solenoid

these were pretty common back in the day, but now we just take dependable cars for granted.

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Have done many of those true maintenance items (not welding) on my two vehicles, one a 1999 with 190,000 miles, the other a 2003 with with 285,000. Both run as if they were showroom new. And both are American made. I won't need to buy a new vehicle for a very long time. And, yes, no rust.

catalinajack said:

Have done many of those true maintenance items (not welding) on my two vehicles, one a 1999 with 190,000 miles, the other a 2003 with with 285,000. Both run as if they were showroom new. And both are American made. I won't need to buy a new vehicle for a very long time. And, yes, no rust.

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I loved my very low mileage 2005 Suburban. Then I recently went new car shopping. The differences are staggering.

Worth getting rid of the Suburban though? Yes, but not an easy decision. That is not until I went car shopping with my Son-in-law who reminded me either I spend it or he eventually will.

Benthic2 said:

With cars there has been huge improvements. It used to be something to get a car to roll over the odometer at 100k miles, now....not so much.

When was the last time anyone had to:

clean and gap their plugs
replace a muffler
have a frame welded
replace a master cylinder
blew a head gasket
had a carbeurator cleaned
put water in their battery
replaced a distributor cap
replaced a radiator or a water pump
replaced a starter/solenoid

these were pretty common back in the day, but now we just take dependable cars for granted.

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im sorry, but i gotta call BS on this observation ........

when is the last time you paid 700 bucks for plug wires (bmw 7 series)
replaced cat converters due to bad gas (another 700 in a lot of cases)
had your car totaled for what amounted to a fender bender
had to watch an anti lock light on your dash no one can turn off
paid 800 bucks for 4 injectors due to bad gas
too lazy to spend 5 minutes a week checking fluids ??? your boat loves you
replaced a coil pack (50-200 bucks) my dist cap is 15 bucks
water pumps are expendable items no matter what you drive, and i can show you several (like more then 100) 50-60-70 year old cars running with original
radiators right now
replace the starter on a new cadillac, you have to tear the entire motor apart, starter is inside the engine
and these are all very common this day and age (think multi billion dollar auto parts industry)

it really irks me when people clump new and dependable into the same basket...... all you have done is trade one set of issues for another, no better no worse......
yes, by proxy newer may mean more dependable by sake of less hours used, but hi tech new age construction tech does not make my old tech any less dependable, it just means your tech is different, same destination, different routes......

i would go so far as to say the old tech ways a lot of times are far more dependable due to time in service (proven track record)..... expense to repair or replace (a little fairing compound VS a carbon/kevlar/cored/composite nightmare)

the car voted year after year as the most beautiful in the world is over a hundred years old....
im pretty sure it is the same for boats.....

just because something has been so idiot proofed it needs an aerospace engineer to change the oil does not mean its more dependable or better.....
it simply means this is way its done these days...

TugYacht_33 said:

the car voted year after year as the most beautiful in the world is over a hundred years old....

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What car is that?

-Chris

lol, now that ive read that out loud it seems close to a rant/flame........ not my intention at all....
im going out to get coffee now....

Tug Yacht

57 Chevy ala Cuba is the answer. Or an extended warranty on an unbeatable Honda product? Plug wire replacement though, that is suspicious?

its a rolls royce, phantom i think, or ghost.....lol, i should have done my home work before throwing out names, lol

sunchaser said:

Tug Yacht

57 Chevy ala Cuba is the answer. Or an extended warranty on an unbeatable Honda product? Plug wire replacement though, that is suspicious?

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55 my man...... i never could get in to the big wing cars..... but that 55 shoe box makes my mouth water

TugYacht_33 said:

its a rolls royce, phantom i think, or ghost.....lol, i should have done my home work before throwing out names, lol

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Hmmm...

Can't imagine any auto built pre-1917 would win many beauty contests...

-Chris

Yes there are differences, but it depends....

Some old stuff is better
Some is crap
Same with new stuff.

Ya need to know:
Who made it
How they made it
What materials were used
What extras it has
and what the mission is.

And, yes, there are some boats makers that put out a bunch more quality and capability than others.

And some will settle for less quality and less price and some will pay more. There's no right or wrong.... for the most part.

But there's a few that will push the boat beyond its capabilities.


It all depends.....

Built in 1911 and beautiful.

Eye of the beholder.

Not bad, though.

-Chris

I’m gonna have to throw away Chris’s beautiful 01 Golf. Timing belt broke on start-up. On the internet they say valves bent for sure. Makes me sick. Perfect car w just a tad over 100000 miles. My mechanic told me to check for compression but my heart won’t be in it.

Perhaps we’ll buy a Rabbit w a chain driven camshaft. (5cyl)

Tugyacht 33,
Thanks for say’in what I failed to put together propperly.

I guess there are a lot of TFers that know way more about cars than boats, maybe aurplanes too as often as thread drift goes those ways......way too long....

I looked up the “Harbor Chat” section and it says ....

“Friendly, professional, informal exchange of "NON-boating" topics. Political comments, weaponry and religious discussions are off-limits in this forum”

Non boating topics. And the “non-boating” topics autos and airplanes are not tabu as stated.

So from now on I will post on these topics at Harbor Chat. At first I assumed harbor chat would be about boats. It’s kinda like going to the airport to talk about boats .. haha.