Umbrella Insurance Coverage

Good Morning All,

In late November we completed the sale of our home and moved aboard full time. With the sale of our home we cancelled our home owners policy and that meant that our umbrella policy was cancelled as well.

Shame on me, but from the searching that I did on the forum I expected that one of the companies that specialized in covering boaters would have the option for an umbrella policy.

That ASSUMPTION is turning out to be much more difficult than I expected. I've contacted multiple companies that purport to be associated with AGLCA and MTOA and no one offers a full umbrella policy that covers boat/cars/other personal risks.

Suggestions? We cannot be the only people out there wanting that type of coverage. Right now I am considering increasing the liability on our boat and cars and considering it done.

If you are one of those who does not value insurance - please do not reply because while we have enough to retire we do not have enough to risk losing a substantial amount in an accident.

Thanks,

Gene
m/v Miss Deb

Well, I did the same thing fifteen years ago, but there was no problem retaining my umbrella coverage then. I would go back to your old umbrella carrier and see if they will reinstate the policy.

The problem you may face is having broken the chain of coverage it may be difficult to reinstate it. But it will be the home owner insurance carriers who will provide umbrella coverage, not the marine carriers.

I would much, much rather have a real umbrella policy than just increasing the liability limits on the boat and auto policies. Those only cover liablity incurred while operating them. There are other liability risks beyond those, albeit somewhat small.

David

Hello David,

I tried that. Our homeowners, cars, umbrella, personal property policy were all with Erie. About two months before the move I contacted the local office and told them about the move and asked them to find out if we could keep the umbrella policy providing that we left all of the other insurance with them.

Again, shame on me for not following up sooner but when I contacted them about a week before the house closed to follow-up they said they could not maintain the umbrella.

We are also MTOA members and they offer a policy that includes liability coverage for when you are "off the boat". But that does not cover you when you are driving a car, either your own or a rental.

And so the search continues.

Gene

I have no dirt house or property.

I have had similar dealings with umbrella insurance...meaning... not as easy as some make it sound.

I do have a liveaboard policy which concentrates on belongings and increased liability covetage, on and off the boat, and yes hundreds more expensive.

when I sold my trck, I contacted my auto insurer and they suggested a non owners policy for continuity....and for $250 a year it does cover liability for driving other's cars and rentals.

But good luck with umbrella insurance....unless you own more than one costly asset, some say it isnt all that necessary.

We have/had the same problem when we sold our last property in the late 90s. We rented an “apartment” in a friend’s barn then and stored a few things there. We wrote up a lease and paid rent then got tenants insurance. When we changed our residence from Washington to Florida last year, we did the same thing with my sister at her house. We have a rental agreement and bought rental insurance. In both cases, after we had rental insurance we were able to secure an umbrella policy. We are also registered voters at that address and that is the address that is on our drivers licenses. We use a mail forwarding service for all our mail. The umbrella policy also covers Hobo where the boat policy ends. We were right up front with the agents and no problem.

We were challenged with this as well..no dirt home, no cars, living aboard. Until this year Jack Martin Associates (MTOA) was able to offer a very good group umbrella but the carrier dropped it this summer. We ended up going to the personal lines experts at Aon to find us a policy. Try them, Marsh, Willis or one of the other large insurance brokerage firms and you should be able to find coverage.

Instead of doing all the work yourself, find an insurance agent who represents multiple lines and let him/her find what you need.

I agree with Parks. I use Atlass insurance in Ft. Lauderdale Florida (Rachel is my POC).

Parks I’m heading to your old haunt this morning to spend a little money. Hope your progressing on the new boat!

Sold the house, kept a small rental property, use it as my domicile, kept umbrella, so far so good.

While we're talking about insurance, how many cruise that don't own a car? We didn't for maybe 12 years off and on. We were added as additional drivers on my mom's insurance as recommended by an insurance agent. No charge and it gave us coverage history. The first time we were out of the country for 6 years and didn't own a car. When we returned and went to get car insurance, for a new to us used car, an insurance search showed we had been insured with no accidents or DUI's. Our rates were very good compared to a friend who had no history and ended up in a risk pool with much higher premiums. As far as using it for a rental car, we didn't.

Call Anchor Marine Insurance in Seattle. They have umbrella coverage for boats 50’ and under. I have not been able to find an umbrella policy for boats over 50’.

Good Morning,

I wanted to post a follow-up on our search for an umbrella policy, aka personal liability policy, that we could purchase WITHOUT owning a house. To recap, when we sold our home to move aboard I was surprised that the carrier that had our car and home insured would not continue the umbrella since we no longer owned a home.

I tried BoatUS since they had our boat policy but in order for them to write an umbrella policy we had to insure our cars with Geico. I did not want to change our auto carrier and began looking for other options.

One of the recommendations on this site was for the IMIS Gowrie group in Kent Narrows, MD. I also investigated our options through the agency that works with MTOA members since we belong to that group and through Pantenius.

The final choice was IMIS Gowrie based primarily on their responsiveness and patience with all of my questions. We will be moving our boat insurance to Markel and they secured us an umbrella policy with an AM Best A+ rated carrier.

Based solely on the inquiry/purchase interaction with IMIS I highly recommend them.

Thanks,

Gene

SlowsailNC said:

Good Morning,

I wanted to post a follow-up on our search for an umbrella policy, aka personal liability policy, that we could purchase WITHOUT owning a house. To recap, when we sold our home to move aboard I was surprised that the carrier that had our car and home insured would not continue the umbrella since we no longer owned a home.

I tried BoatUS since they had our boat policy but in order for them to write an umbrella policy we had to insure our cars with Geico. I did not want to change our auto carrier and began looking for other options.

One of the recommendations on this site was for the IMIS Gowrie group in Kent Narrows, MD. I also investigated our options through the agency that works with MTOA members since we belong to that group and through Pantenius.

The final choice was IMIS Gowrie based primarily on their responsiveness and patience with all of my questions. We will be moving our boat insurance to Markel and they secured us an umbrella policy with an AM Best A+ rated carrier.

Based solely on the inquiry/purchase interaction with IMIS I highly recommend them.

Thanks,

Gene

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Don't know if this helps but we were able to get an umbrella policy from Liberty Mutual because we got renter's insurance for our belongongs that put into a storage unit. We became full-time liveaboards 1.5 years ago. Our vehicles are onsuted with Liberty also.

At this time getting umbrella policies on boats less than 50’ is not an issue. Finding some one who will right an umbrella on boats over 50’ is the challenge.

catalinajack said:

Don't know if this helps but we were able to get an umbrella policy from Liberty Mutual because we got renter's insurance for our belongongs that put into a storage unit. We became full-time liveaboards 1.5 years ago. Our vehicles are onsuted with Liberty also.

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I'm curious. AFAIK Liberty will only write an umbrella policy that covers specific events for which they hold the underlying policy. For example, their umbrella covers something that happens in the car only if you also have an auto policy with them.

They're not in the business of writing policies for anything much larger than a runabout--not at any reasonable rates.

So, does the umbrella you have from them cover your boating? Do you have a watercraft policy with them?

FWIW, my umbrella is totally independent of my other policies. And I had no trouble getting it. And if I were to cancel all my other policies, it would remain in force, providing coverage in excess of the coverage that otherwise would have been provided by the other policies. And come to think of it, I have two umbrellas -- one on top of the other. Both independent.

danderer said:

I'm curious. AFAIK Liberty will only write an umbrella policy that covers specific events for which they hold the underlying policy. For example, their umbrella covers something that happens in the car only if you also have an auto policy with them.

They're not in the business of writing policies for anything much larger than a runabout--not at any reasonable rates.

So, does the umbrella you have from them cover your boating? Do you have a watercraft policy with them?

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The umbrella covers boat related incidents provided that the boat is less than 45' and with speed capability under 50 mph. The carriers for the boat insurance and the umbrella insurance are separate companies.

Gene

Hopefully Pau Hana will weigh in. My take is not everybody has the need for an Umbrella. A personal financial sheet answers that question.

Umbrella policies vary widely by underwriter. Some require specific underlying policies such as $100k/300k on auto liability and $300k on Homeowner's liability. Others accept less. Some provide only excess coverage while others cover things not covered by any other liability policy you own such as slander or libel or false arrest. Most cover legal fees that might not be covered by regular policies. Some only write when they're the insurer on other things and others write regardless.

As to whether everyone needs an umbrella policy, surely everyone doesn't. Some poor people are basically judgement proof so don't have a financial concern about liability. In my opinion, anyone who could be hurt by a $50k law suit judgement needs it and that is most people. If you own a rental home you definitely need it. Most payouts come from auto accidents though. If there's a death then you're far beyond the coverage of any auto policy. You think your auto insurer will defend you in court? Nope. They'll pay out the amount of their coverage and let you deal with the rest. It would be the same way in a boat or a death on your home property.

Then there are the other forms of liability not covered by any other policy. When you read cases about a couple losing a million dollar or more lawsuit over what they posted about a photographer on social media you realize those risks.

There are just a lot of liabilities that can "totally wipe you out" and being wiped out is the same whether your life savings is $25k or $5 million, it's still your life savings.

danderer said:

I'm curious. AFAIK Liberty will only write an umbrella policy that covers specific events for which they hold the underlying policy. For example, their umbrella covers something that happens in the car only if you also have an auto policy with them.

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To circle back and correct myself, currently for Liberty to write an umbrella policy:

1. You need to have a Liberty auto policy, and
2. You need to have an underlying policy (though not necessarily from Liberty) on what you want the umbrella to cover: home, boat, etc.

MYTraveler said:

FWIW, my umbrella is totally independent of my other policies...

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Okay. So stop keeping secrets. Tell us who this policy is with!

Hello Denver,

Can't speak for the others but we put the boat insurance with Markel and the umbrella is with RLI.

Thanks,

Gene

I think a couple of issues are getting confused in this discussion. Usually, maybe always an umbrella policy only covers risks for which you have an underlying primary policy, like boat and auto.

But if you have no primary liability policy such as home owners, renters, etc that covers general liability risks, ie non boating or auto, then you probably don't have umbrella coverage for those risks.

I now realize that this is a mistake I made 15 years ago when I kept my umbrella, but only had boat and non owned auto insurance. I did not have a primary policy for general liability so I probably did not have general liability umbrella coverage then.

So look into the requirements for an underlying general liability primary policy because I suspect you will need one for your umbrella to kick in.

David

djmarchand said:

I think a couple of issues are getting confused in this discussion. Usually, maybe always an umbrella policy only covers risks for which you have an underlying primary policy, like boat and auto.

But if you have no primary liability policy such as home owners, renters, etc that covers general liability risks, ie non boating or auto, then you probably don't have umbrella coverage for those risks.

I now realize that this is a mistake I made 15 years ago when I kept my umbrella, but only had boat and non owned auto insurance. I did not have a primary policy for general liability so I probably did not have general liability umbrella coverage then.

So look into the requirements for an underlying general liability primary policy because I suspect you will need one for your umbrella to kick in.

David

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Good advice. Be very careful. Technically the policy that only covers those things for which you have an underlying policy are "excess coverage policies" which is one type of an umbrella policy. That is all though that some companies write.

BandB made a good comment:

"Good advice. Be very careful. Technically the policy that only covers those things for which you have an underlying policy are "excess coverage policies" which is one type of an umbrella policy. That is all though that some companies write."

To verify my understanding of our policies I went back to Gary Golden at IMIS Gowrie, the broker whom I am working with. With the Markel policy on the boat we have the live-aboard endorsement which covers us for things that occur off the boat (yes there are exclusions such as auto incidents or illegal acts). The example I used for Gary was what happens if I am in the grocery store and accidentally run over a little old lady. Am I covered by the umbrella?

The answer is yes, because of the live-aboard endorsement in the Markel policy. The boat policy would pay up to the it's limit and the umbrella would take over.

We have separate auto policies so again, the umbrella would cover us for auto incidents.

During this process the best advice that I received on the forum was to find a good broker. I believe that it was OCDiver who recommended Gary and that was a good recommendation. Gary was EXTREMELY patient answering my questions and I definitely recommend him.

Thanks,

Gene