ancora
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A use for old life lines.
- Thread starter ancora
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The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Nomad Willy
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Lou_tribal
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I apologize for the little thread drift bu oNe question for my own education. What is the benefit of having a piece of cable between the anchor and the chain?
I ask because my anchor is directly connected with the chain (from previous owner).
L
Vinyl coated life lines can be more at risk than uncoated. Water/moisture can wick up the cable which can rust/corrode plus the vinyl hides any broken or rusted strands.
I know of more than I instance where vinyl coated life lines had failed and they weren’t 43 years old although yours get regular fresh water rinses in the PNW.
If your racing (sailboats) under ORC/ISAF rules, the life lines have to be uncoated. The rules were changed 10 years ago after failures and the inability to inspect.
Nomad Willy
Guru
One post to that end Lou.
Many on this forum think catenary in the anchor rode is very important. Having an anchor shank high does awful things to the angle of the anchor fluke. If one has cable for a few feet the shank and a bit of cable slices into the seafloor fairly well. Notice the my thimble on the anchor end of the cable is vertical where it presents the least resistance to descending into the sea floor. But more importantly when the anchor shank tries to plunge into the bottom the cable presents far less drag than chain. Even small chain. So the shank goes deeper into the bottom.
Looking at Steve's Anchor Setting Vids one can see how the rode end of the anchor shank drops down to (and into the sea floor) if it can. This is advantageous.
Many on this forum think catenary in the anchor rode is very important. Having an anchor shank high does awful things to the angle of the anchor fluke. If one has cable for a few feet the shank and a bit of cable slices into the seafloor fairly well. Notice the my thimble on the anchor end of the cable is vertical where it presents the least resistance to descending into the sea floor. But more importantly when the anchor shank tries to plunge into the bottom the cable presents far less drag than chain. Even small chain. So the shank goes deeper into the bottom.
Looking at Steve's Anchor Setting Vids one can see how the rode end of the anchor shank drops down to (and into the sea floor) if it can. This is advantageous.
Nomad Willy
Guru
Larry,
Thanks.
The vinyl coating is cracked in 2 or 3 places and a bit of rust shows. I'll check on the Willard Boat Owners site and see if there's informative history.
Thanks.
The vinyl coating is cracked in 2 or 3 places and a bit of rust shows. I'll check on the Willard Boat Owners site and see if there's informative history.
HopCar
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Eric, the white vinyl can hide rust damage in the cable. Back in my ill spent youth I flew wire braced hang gliders and landed them in salt water. Some of the cables were covered in clear vinyl and we often saw rust stains under the vinyl. Some cables were covered in white vinyl. When we stripped the vinyl we found broken wire strands. If we hadn't seen the rust through the clear vinyl, we would never have checked the white vinyl.
The fix was to go the next larger wire size without the vinyl covering. If I remember we went from 3/32" vinyl coated wire to 1/8" uncoated wire.
Lou_tribal
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HopCar
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Danforth even sold short lengths of cable for this use for a while. Almost no one does it but I think it's a good idea.
LarryM
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Eric,
Lifelines and Rigging has an excellent Inspection Checklist that provides inspection schedules and average lifespans of lifelines and rigging. Your vinyl-covered swaged lifelines are exactly what they address.
I've taken the liberty of including some photos from their site to illustrate this.
I have personally seen a 200 pound man working the foredeck of a sailboat go right through a lifeline as if it weren't even there. It was only 10 years old and was inspected before every race. We later found a hairline crack in a swaged terminal had let go. And, that is not the only time I have seen lifelines fail.
So, in addition to any rusted wire, clean and carefully inspect all of the swaged lifeline terminals and fittings.
Please take a look at the checklist and recommendations for guidance from rigging professionals. IMO, there is no room for guesswork or compromise when it comes to safety equipment, and you operate in cold water where this is doubly important.
OK, I'm climbing down from my soapbox now
psneeld
Guru
LarryM, good examples.
Typical swaged lifelines are a disaster waiting to happen in many cases.
Most of the ones I had on my sailboat I would have never trusted past about 15 years and that depended on the swage connection.
Typical swaged lifelines are a disaster waiting to happen in many cases.
Most of the ones I had on my sailboat I would have never trusted past about 15 years and that depended on the swage connection.
Nomad Willy
Guru
Very interesting HC. I suspect you were into hang gliding very early on .. say mid 70’s .. as was I. I flew an old 18’ Chandelle standard that probably had coated wires. We needed the coating for all the crashing on the sand dunes. I flew that thing from 3000’ mountians before we found our they were divergent. Did lots of whip stalls but never got really straight down. I’ve come closer to death in Dixion Entrance near Ketchikan.
Parks I think I may have dreamt that up on my own but I’m very flattered to know Danforth had the same idea. To be of benefit the bottom needs to be soft enough to allow the shank to penetrate the bottom. But goodie for us most bottoms in northern lats are mud and in southern climes sand so w any significant penetration there should be benefit.
I just thought I could even improve on it by putting the thimble through the anchor shank hole and swage it on the cable. But the cable may twist or bind or both.
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Nomad Willy
Guru
Eric,
Lifelines and Rigging has an excellent Inspection Checklist that provides inspection schedules and average lifespans of lifelines and rigging. Your vinyl-covered swaged lifelines are exactly what they address.
I've taken the liberty of including some photos from their site to illustrate this.
I have personally seen a 200 pound man working the foredeck of a sailboat go right through a lifeline as if it weren't even there. It was only 10 years old and was inspected before every race. We later found a hairline crack in a swaged terminal had let go. And, that is not the only time I have seen lifelines fail.
So, in addition to any rusted wire, clean and carefully inspect all of the swaged lifeline terminals and fittings.
Please take a look at the checklist and recommendations for guidance from rigging professionals. IMO, there is no room for guesswork or compromise when it comes to safety equipment, and you operate in cold water where this is doubly important.
OK, I'm climbing down from my soapbox now
Hi Larry,
Don’t have ANYTHING on our boat that looks even remotely like those pics. I do put some force on my life lines when doing things like turning off and on the propane that’s on the cabin top.
LarryM
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Eric,
I admit those were obvious and extreme examples. I was more worried about these kinds of swage failures, that are just not always that easy to see. They are the ones I worried about the most. Lifelines and of course, standing rigging.
I'm sure you are on top if it though.
Northern Spy
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Interesting thread.
I always crewed other peoples sailboats. Never owned a big one myself.
I wonder if anyone does liquid penetrant inspection (LPI) on the swedges. I know, not a sailing forum, but would be a cheap and easy way to detect cracks and SCC.
I always crewed other peoples sailboats. Never owned a big one myself.
I wonder if anyone does liquid penetrant inspection (LPI) on the swedges. I know, not a sailing forum, but would be a cheap and easy way to detect cracks and SCC.
We did on our sailboat (dye test) on the standing rigging and have seen it done during rigging surveys. It’s not expensive in the big picture. Most sailers we hung around with though, would usually replace the rigging based on age/use and where was the boat headed next.
I watched a guy go over the side when a life line failed. From my experience, if the life lines are original (10 plus years) and/or the vinyl covering is cracked or rust stained, replace.
We’re seeing more and more boats that have/are replacing the life lines with Dyneema. No meat hooks, easy to splice, fairly inexpensive and has good uv resistance.
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psneeld
Guru
Yep, dye penetrant pretty common back when I owned sailboats (70s through 90s).
Then again the guys in the helicopter maintenance shops kept me under their wings too.
So not only the sailors were using it, the mechs kept me at the forefront of crack propogation....the bane of aluminum spar rotor systems back then.
Then again the guys in the helicopter maintenance shops kept me under their wings too.
So not only the sailors were using it, the mechs kept me at the forefront of crack propogation....the bane of aluminum spar rotor systems back then.
DHeckrotte
Guru
Ditto re: comments about old lifelines and the vinyl sheath.
I renewed mine on the '72 Morgan and re-purposed them to suspend bird feeders with the idea of squirrel-proofing. I removed the vinyl - for safety, you know - but squirrels can walk on the bare SS wire.
I did not renew them on the '70 LeComte since they were larger, bare, and not rusty. Lot's of problems waiting for you at the fittings: loose cotters.
I about went for a swim in the East River, next to the United Nations Building, when a pin dropped out on a friend's boat (my wife caught my feet...).
We're quite happy with the side decks and adequately high bulwarks and railings on the FuHwa. Too many stories about wire lifelines that'll break your leg if they don't break.
I renewed mine on the '72 Morgan and re-purposed them to suspend bird feeders with the idea of squirrel-proofing. I removed the vinyl - for safety, you know - but squirrels can walk on the bare SS wire.
I did not renew them on the '70 LeComte since they were larger, bare, and not rusty. Lot's of problems waiting for you at the fittings: loose cotters.
I about went for a swim in the East River, next to the United Nations Building, when a pin dropped out on a friend's boat (my wife caught my feet...).
We're quite happy with the side decks and adequately high bulwarks and railings on the FuHwa. Too many stories about wire lifelines that'll break your leg if they don't break.
HopCar
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Eric, did you ever play with a Danforth Deep Set anchor? They took the idea of skinny penetrates better to the extreme.
They used very strong alloys of steel which allowed them to make everything very thin. The shank was even spring steel so it could bend side to side.
I first saw it at a trade show. Danforth had made a scale model of the Deep Set and the High Test. They had a big fish tank full of water and sand. The little anchors had 1/16" cable with handles attached. First I tried the High Test. It completely buried it self but I was able to drag it through the sand. Next I tried the Deep Set. It buried itself and kept going deeper until I couldn't move it. This was about a 3" anchor. I was very impressed. Unfortunately they couldn't make them in large sizes. Over about twenty pounds all the shanks had a curve in them. I think it happened when they heattreated them.
