Varnish Maintenance

Simi 60 said:

480ft of varnish treated in less than 1 day.
See you again in 5 to 10 years.

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What's your "recipe" again on this? Looks great

Delfin said:

On my Cape George cutter, the cap rails were teak and were joined with Thiokol so the joints could work. I always had failing varnish at the edges of those joints. I wooded them, diluted epoxy to the thickness of rubbing alcohol with MEK and saturated the wood as well as the joints, lightly sanded to settle the grain, laid on another coat of unthickened epoxy, sanded that flat, then laid on the varnish. No more problems. Every other place with no working joints - Port Orford cedar cabin sides, Iroki Sampson's bit, laminated fir bowsprit, spruce mast - all these were treated the same way and even sailing around in Hawaii everything held up well with maintenance coating only needed once every couple of years. YMMD.

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Thiokol is a brand name for ______?
Thinned the epoxy w MEK. How wide were the joints?
Why do you think this works?
Thiokol is great stuff. We used it exclusively on the Uniflite boats in the early 70's. Had it in 55gal drums as it was specified by the Navy for their boats. Rather than have a different product of the pleasure boats we used the Thiokol. How does it compare to 3M 5200 in your opinion? My be same stuff different color IMO.

The only two part stuff we use now is 3M filler (the green stuff) and WS epoxy on our small hull blisters. But I'm open to more epoxy if there is significant advantages. Boaters tend to use and rave about every new thing that comes along. Don't want to get up on any fad wagon but I'm all for better products.

Delfin said:

We sailed her for 20 years. Made it to Hawaii in 18 days from Eureka and back in 21, which is pretty good time. Loved that boat.

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Delfin , A Cape George Cutter now that's a real sailboat . I think they have the molds for the Bristol Channel Cutter and the Falmouth Cutter now and are building them.

Nomad Willy said:

Thiokol is a brand name for ______?
Thinned the epoxy w MEK. How wide were the joints?
Why do you think this works?
Thiokol is great stuff. We used it exclusively on the Uniflite boats in the early 70's. Had it in 55gal drums as it was specified by the Navy for their boats. Rather than have a different product of the pleasure boats we used the Thiokol. How does it compare to 3M 5200 in your opinion? My be same stuff different color IMO.

The only two part stuff we use now is 3M filler (the green stuff) and WS epoxy on our small hull blisters. But I'm open to more epoxy if there is significant advantages. Boaters tend to use and rave about every new thing that comes along. Don't want to get up on any fad wagon but I'm all for better products.

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Thiokol is solid rocket fuel. Seriously. The marine application is Boat Life, and the good stuff is two part, although the one part works ok. It is the black compound you see on teak decks. Stays flexible for years and years. I much prefer it to 5200. That stuff is so sticky that it is virtually impossible to remove something bedded with it.

The joints were around 1/8", as I recall. I think the only reason they were there was to help make the curve, stem to stern.

Pack Mule said:

Delfin , A Cape George Cutter now that's a real sailboat . I think they have the molds for the Bristol Channel Cutter and the Falmouth Cutter now and are building them.

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They do have those molds, I am pretty sure. The problem is that if you have $450,000 you may not want to spend it on a 36' sailboat based on a hull designed in 1936. You'd be wrong, IMO. I sailed past so many 'go fast' light weight boats I couldn't count them, but Anthem (her name) had a 52' tall mast, a 21' boom and with a 4' bowsprit carried the sail of a 45' boat. She weighed 12 tons and where a light vessel's forward motion would be slowed by a wave, Anthem would just power through. Not everyone's cup of tea because she was tender until her rails were in the water and then a hurricane couldn't move her anymore, but we sure loved her.

Cecil Lange took the lines off of an Ed Monk Sr. design the 34' African Star that won every Swiftsure race for quite a few years in the late 30s and had Atkins (I think) draw the 36. They say that you might be ahead of her turning the buoy, but when she started running for home they'd pop a bright yellow spinnaker and everyone was left in her wake.

Loved her outboard hung rudder. I built a trim tab that I attached to the trailing edge and you could steer her with an Autohelm windvane that itself weighed about 10# through a gale without touching the tiller. In fact, in crossing to and from Hawaii, we would remove the tiller since it wasn't needed.

Gmarr said:

What's your "recipe" again on this? Looks great

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Step 1: Sand with 60 grit- I have sander/polisher and random orbitals with 8" pads on board.
Step 2: Roll in appropriately coloured self priming premium exterior acrylic/latex paint*
Step 3: Sit back, drink beer.

* I have the same prep and paint on my land based house, full sun and salt air 8 years and counting.

Simi 60 said:

Step 1: Sand with 60 grit- I have sander/polisher and random orbitals with 8" pads on board.
Step 2: Roll in appropriately coloured self priming premium exterior acrylic/latex paint*
Step 3: Sit back, drink beer.

* I have the same prep and paint on my land based house, full sun and salt air 8 years and counting.

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That sounds easy enough and looks good . I'm surprised that the oil in the teak doesn't push the paint off . I guess the primers holds the oil down .

Don't use epoxy. As stated, the sun will get to it and yellow it. Any cracks and water intrusion will blacken it. If you want to seal it before varnishing, try Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer CPES. First you must wood the surface (remove any coatings). Brush on CPES until the wood won't soak in anymore. Let it dry till tacky and then apply your first slightly thinned coat of varnish. The varnish will adhere to the CPES and give you a nice bond. You'll need multiple coats of varnish as the CPES is an epoxy product and UV rays will degrade it over time. I shoot for six to eight coats. The biggest difference between CPES and Epoxy is, the CPES gets soaked into the wood where it hardens the fibers. It will prevent water intrusion much better than a "coating" of epoxy. I usually do an annual coat of varnish in the spring time. If you keep up with it and repair dents and cracks quickly, you can get ten- fifteen years before you need to wood it and start over. Yes, much more time consuming that Cetol, but also much nicer looking. Hard to beat varnished teak.
Former wooden sailboat owner for 35 years.

McDuff,
Is it that you don't use epoxy any more or ?
There is a great deal of talk about CPES in years past. I think it's been a long time since it's been posted on the board.

Looks like your anchor line is through the stbd bow chock. Do you do that because it's a sailboat or to put the boat at an angle to limit swinging on the hook?

Sold that sailboat after many years. She's in Key West now (Ihope!) She was loaded with epoxy, just not on the spars. CPES and varnish there.
Very observant of you! Anchor went down quick to get this shot at just the right sun exposure off Provincetown. Musta missed the chock.
Still use the CPES/varnish formula on m Cape Dory Trawler 28

MacDuff said:

Don't use epoxy. As stated, the sun will get to it and yellow it. Any cracks and water intrusion will blacken it. If you want to seal it before varnishing, try Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer CPES. First you must wood the surface (remove any coatings). Brush on CPES until the wood won't soak in anymore. Let it dry till tacky and then apply your first slightly thinned coat of varnish. The varnish will adhere to the CPES and give you a nice bond. You'll need multiple coats of varnish as the CPES is an epoxy product and UV rays will degrade it over time. I shoot for six to eight coats. The biggest difference between CPES and Epoxy is, the CPES gets soaked into the wood where it hardens the fibers. It will prevent water intrusion much better than a "coating" of epoxy. I usually do an annual coat of varnish in the spring time. If you keep up with it and repair dents and cracks quickly, you can get ten- fifteen years before you need to wood it and start over. Yes, much more time consuming that Cetol, but also much nicer looking. Hard to beat varnished teak.
Former wooden sailboat owner for 35 years.

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Don't use epoxy. Use epoxy instead. Roger.

Nomad Willy said:

McDuff,
Is it that you don't use epoxy any more or ?
There is a great deal of talk about CPES in years past. I think it's been a long time since it's been posted on the board.

Looks like your anchor line is through the stbd bow chock. Do you do that because it's a sailboat or to put the boat at an angle to limit swinging on the hook?

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CPES = epoxy + MEK. Make your own, as it is a bit cheaper.

What is MEK?

L

Delfin said:

Don't use epoxy. Use watered down, compromised and overpriced epoxy instead. Roger.

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Corrected for you.

Lou_tribal said:

What is MEK?

L

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Methyl ethyl ketone.

In Australia most boat builders I know who thin epoxy use metholated spirits and I believe this was discussed in the west system guides and deemed not necessary.

I prefer to use a laminating resin on a warm day which in reality is more than thin enough

Delfin said:

CPES = epoxy + MEK. Make your own, as it is a bit cheaper.

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Good to know. Does it kick faster when thinned?

Lou,
Methyl Ether Keytone.

Problem with epoxy is finding the right balance between temperature to make it fluid and drying time. I found that using it during a hot summer day with a slow hardener is fine. I used it to seal a table foot covered with cork and I got good result. Regarding usage before varnish there is a thread on this on wooden boat forum that is interesting

L

Nomad: MEK is also called butanone, which if you look at the MSDS for CPES is basically the only other ingredient other than the chemicals comprising epoxy.

And no, it doesn't kick faster, it kicks a bit slower and West says its mechanical strength is reduced, but that doesn't matter if what you are trying to do is waterproof the substrate and create a base for varnish. For ding resistance, I like adding the extra coast of epoxy, sanded flat before laying on varnish. Wait at least a week before putting on varnish, because the epoxy will continue to cure and out gas a bit for a period of time.

Eric if you built Uniflite boats, you built some stout ones.

Delfin,
Thanks for the input. Always nice to have options.

Yes the Uni's were good boats. They were/aren't terribly efficient .. heavy w wide chines. But they were a comfortable ride though and as long as one can afford the fuel ... great boats. Many of their peers were better looking (like Tollys) but few were as solid.

Cetol Marine Gloss

Can I drop in on this thread for another finishing-related question. I am planning a maintenance coat of Cetol Marine Gloss tomorrow morning. I have done the prep work and want to get this done before I have to clean all over again. Saturday forecast is great - cloudy but dry. Problems come Sunday when rain is expected. Will a Saturday afternoon dry time (plus overnight) be sufficient? I tried calling the support line at Sikkens but we traded voice mail until after closing time. Thanks gang!!

Guido said:

Can I drop in on this thread for another finishing-related question. I am planning a maintenance coat of Cetol Marine Gloss tomorrow morning. I have done the prep work and want to get this done before I have to clean all over again. Saturday forecast is great - cloudy but dry. Problems come Sunday when rain is expected. Will a Saturday afternoon dry time (plus overnight) be sufficient? I tried calling the support line at Sikkens but we traded voice mail until after closing time. Thanks gang!!

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IMO, yes, no problem. I used Cetol on a bow pulpit and seem to recall not worrying too much about the prospect of rain, and in any case the stuff seems to kick off pretty quickly.

If I can interfere, it will depend on the temperature and humidity. First never used cetol in a hot sunny day at noon when the sun warm you like hell. Second if the night is chilly fresh it will take time to dry.
Just my 2 cents.

L

Guido said:

Can I drop in on this thread for another finishing-related question. I am planning a maintenance coat of Cetol Marine Gloss tomorrow morning. I have done the prep work and want to get this done before I have to clean all over again. Saturday forecast is great - cloudy but dry. Problems come Sunday when rain is expected. Will a Saturday afternoon dry time (plus overnight) be sufficient? I tried calling the support line at .Sikkens but we traded voice mail until after closing time. Thanks gang!!

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I was varnishing this morning. The humidity today is perfect. No worries about keeping a wet edge, as the varnish stays wet long enough. No worries about the dew marring the finish because it is dry long before it is late enough for the dew to start falling.
Of course I am not talking about Cetol, but unless it tells you on the can to allow an extra long time for it to dry, it should take no longer than varnish in the present level of humidity.

Too bad yours will still look like paint when you are done, rather than like beautiful wood. :lol:

I have used Cetol for 20 years. 4-6 hours of dry time before it rains will be fine.

Great input all. Thanks a ton!

I have the epoxy with coats of tinted Cetol then coats of clear Cetol on my cap rails. I'm periodically applying Paint Guard Plus to them in the hope that it will protect the top layer of Cetol and extend the period of time before it will require a new coat of Cetol. They bead water pretty well with the Paint Guard Plus, which bonds to the Cetol.

Is a coat of paint guard plus better at protecting the cetol Gloss than another coat of cetol Gloss would be?
I was so please with how my maintenance coat turned out I am thinking of adding another just for greater durability. Also, in the spots where I had to go right back to bare wood and start again with the tint I think I need more than the one layer of Gloss.

Guido said:

Is a coat of paint guard plus better at protecting the cetol Gloss than another coat of cetol Gloss would be?
I was so please with how my maintenance coat turned out I am thinking of adding another just for greater durability. Also, in the spots where I had to go right back to bare wood and start again with the tint I think I need more than the one layer of Gloss.

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The Paint Guard Plus is basically the equivalent of adding a coat of wax, except it is a synthetic product that is wipe on, walk away (no need to wipe off). So it literally takes about 5 minutes to run around the entire boat and apply it to the cap rails. I can tell the way the rails bead water that it bonds with the Cetol and adds a layer of protection. Like wax, it wears off, but it lasts way longer than wax. I use it on my cars and the stuff lasts an eternity, as in 6 months. I figure if I put a coat on every month or so, it will help. And given the fact that it takes 5 minutes, I'm much more likely to actually do it.

Okay boaters...one more quick question about the Gloss finish. It looks great on the rail and cap rail. Would it be too much on the cabin doors? Should I leave that a more satin finish or is the Gloss just as great there?

Guido said:

Okay boaters...one more quick question about the Gloss finish. It looks great on the rail and cap rail. Would it be too much on the cabin doors? Should I leave that a more satin finish or is the Gloss just as great there?

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IMO, you can't beat Epifanes Rubbed Effect varnish on interior wood. Much harder than varnish, it won't show scratches like gloss will.