Insurance

Hi all I'm new to the forum and am looking for some info about Insurance. My partner and I own a 1950s fishing trawler converted for leisure. We've had the boat for a while but are considering putting the big bucks in to move her up North, problem is we can't seem to find an Insurance company that will insure an old timber vessel. If anyone has a timber trawler and has info on reliable insurance companies, please let us know.
Thanks

It might speed things up if you tell us the insurers which already rejected your proposal.

We are based in Australia and have only tried Australian companies however supposedly you can insure with an overseas company so any info would be appreciated.

We've tried
Club Marine
Pantaenius
Youi
Nautilus
NRMA
Allianz

You tried the usual suspects,maybe enlist the help of a marine specialist broker, like David Bray, he advertises in "Afloat".
Never used him, or any marine insurance broker, but a broker did help me place a property cover I could not place myself.

Thanks

Ok we wanted to try skip using a broker but I will definitely keep his name in mind if I can't get any company names from here. Thanks for your help

I have a wood 83' 1942 Wheeler and never had a problem. There's always Lloyds.
I use https://www.hagerty.com/Insurance/Classic-Boat-Insurance.
You still need a good survey. My basic insurance covers US and Canadian waters, out 25 miles. That covers most of where I go. If I cut across the Gulf of Alaska or go tuna fishing, I do that at my risk, but have no mortgage. I suppose I could get an extension, but don't bother. I'm also a former licensed mariner and commercial fisherman, but I don't think that really figures.

Thanks Leake. I will try find out if they will insure vessels in Australian waters. Appreciate the advice

We also found that using a local marine broker to be much simpler than going through companies also. They were great and found us a much better policy than general insurance companies.

Tegan,

As mentioned by some posts, a current survey will be required by many if not all Insurance companies (Especially in wood), be sure you engage a Surveyors with real WOOD experience/history and is a current certified member of an accepted Society (IIMS/AMSA etc),

I high light this as in any claim (especially wood vessels) the Insurance company will refer you to a clause (most over look as-Latent Defects),

A few more points to note:

1)Surveyors have learned the hard way that surveying wood boats is very difficult and fraught with risks.
2)It is nearly always the fasteners used in a wood hull that spell the downfall of the vessel, hence why most surveyor's will ask to remove some fasteners for evaluation,


Cheers Steve

Tegan,

A thought might be to not insure it. If several companies have turned you down, they more than likely consider it a high risk, or unacceptable risk and if they would insure you the premiums would be high.

The premium money might be better spent on boat improvements.

Insurance is usually not cost effective.

Seevee said:

Tegan,

A thought might be to not insure it. If several companies have turned you down, they more than likely consider it a high risk, or unacceptable risk and if they would insure you the premiums would be high.

The premium money might be better spent on boat improvements.

Insurance is usually not cost effective.

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OK, very bad advice here.

Insurance on your boat? That's up to you. How much is your boat worth and what is the cost to insure it.

Liability insurance (to pay for injuries to other people or damage to their boats or marinas) - You are a fool to leave home without it. What happens if you run into someone's boat and sink it, killing a few people in the process? How do you pay for their loss? Do you have a couple million dollars lying around that you won't miss? Or are you OK with losing every cent you have and everything you own or will own for the rest of your life?

And what about your sense of responsibility? Are you OK with sinking someone's boat or burning down a marina full of boats and just walking away saying "Sorry Charlie"? Is that how your mamma raised you?

You need liability coverage even if you don't insure the boat. Don't let anyone try to convince you otherwise.

WesK said:

OK, very bad advice here.

Insurance on your boat? That's up to you. How much is your boat worth and what is the cost to insure it.

Liability insurance (to pay for injuries to other people or damage to their boats or marinas) - You are a fool to leave home without it. What happens if you run into someone's boat and sink it, killing a few people in the process? How do you pay for their loss? Do you have a couple million dollars lying around that you won't miss? Or are you OK with losing every cent you have and everything you own or will own for the rest of your life?

And what about your sense of responsibility? Are you OK with sinking someone's boat or burning down a marina full of boats and just walking away saying "Sorry Charlie"? Is that how your mamma raised you?

You need liability coverage even if you don't insure the boat. Don't let anyone try to convince you otherwise.

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WesK,

Not necessarily bad advise. Depends on your risk level and tolerance. If you can't get insurance, there's a reason.

However, I suspect Tegan was looking for hull coverage. Liability is fairly easy to get and cheap. And if he's on a route where there are no boats, liability may not be an issue...

As for how my mamma raised me... she raised me to not do stupid things that cause marina fires or to hit other peoples boats.

The vast majority of folks are way over insured.

You can easily be on the hook for a million dollars in a liability case. Donald Trump might not be phased but most everyone else would.

Are you ready to give up everything you own and will ever own?

WesK said:

You can easily be on the hook for a million dollars in a liability case. Donald Trump might not be phased but most everyone else would.

Are you ready to give up everything you own and will ever own?

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WesK,

Now really what's the chance? Probably a billion to one. And there's TONS of other things that can wipe you out.

How many on this forum have had a million dollar judgement against them? I'd bet none.

Some folks are paranoid for no reason.... just be prudent and careful.

Seevee said:

WesK,

Not necessarily bad advise. Depends on your risk level and tolerance. If you can't get insurance, there's a reason.

However, I suspect Tegan was looking for hull coverage. Liability is fairly easy to get and cheap. And if he's on a route where there are no boats, liability may not be an issue...

As for how my mamma raised me... she raised me to not do stupid things that cause marina fires or to hit other peoples boats.

The vast majority of folks are way over insured.

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Lots of speculation in the above. Some may live a maternally sponsored error free life but for we mere mortals,errors happen. In this instance, WesK is "on the money".
If the OP Tegan can`t get what Australia calls "comprehensive insurance" covering the value of his boat and 3rd party liability, he may be able to get the latter component on its own. What looks to be an older converted timber ex trawler or workboat, however well maintained, may not be worth huge $ and Tegan may have to be prepared to shoulder that risk , but the desirability of covering the liability risk to others cannot be doubted.
Even so, I would not give up on full cover until after bothering a broker or two.

Seevee said:

WesK,



Now really what's the chance? Probably a billion to one. And there's TONS of other things that can wipe you out.



How many on this forum have had a million dollar judgement against them? I'd bet none.



Some folks are paranoid for no reason.... just be prudent and careful.

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I have little chance to be on the hook but I will never jeopardize my life and life of my relatives because of that. I prefer to pay few hundred bucks per year just to have this peace of mind instead of knowing that each time I get aboard I can make my beloved wife homeless...
Same apply for anything else like driving my car.
Yes insurance is an expense, but yes **** happens and at the worst time as usually. Never forget that there are some sharks out there that just wait to catch you pants down...

L

Thanks for the advice seems like a bit of a heated debate haha
I'm pretty set on getting insurance for two main reasons
1) The salvage costs of the vessel if things go seriously wrong.
2) To be able to get into marinas, especially considering we are going to a Cyclone area.

We've owned the boat for 3 years without insurance but it mostly sat on the mooring in the river and didn't go out to sea much. Now that we are considering taking her on long sea journeys insurance is a must.

Tegan,

Another thought about a broker is they can negotiate for you and convince a company to cover you. Worth a try. Provide them with your history that shows a good risk for them.

OK, sounds like you have thought it through and made your decision.....but self insuring isnt necessarily bad advice. Some of this may bettervapply to others so I will leave it posted.

A few thing have to be considered. .....and policies arent all the same if you pick and choose coverage you want....just finding the companies to work with may be a challenge.

An older boat may not be worth insuring for hull loss, but if you have a lot of assets, liability is probably wise. Seems that reading many posts on insurance through the years, there are those that just get liability. Usually liability is a lot cheaper than damage and may be easier to get. Worth considering if you keep hitting roadblocks.

The next big thing is environmental damage from spills.....just reminds me I need to check to see if grounding is covered for reef or grass damage..... not sure it is.

In hundreds of salvage jobs, I have only seen the USCG/State Police show up to a handful, and except for one of two we boomed off and threw some pads in, no "cleanup" was ever conducted. Not to say it couldnt happen to you, but a boom and pads arent all that expensive. Depending where you boat and how you evaluate risk, this is a pretty overblown insurance category in my experience unless you have 2 monster engines and carry a lot of oil on board.

Sure there are things to think about, but they all don't necessarily lead to one conclusion.

Liability insurance. Required by many if not a majority of marinas and boat yards. Also inexpensive and covers an unlikely risk but one which can have immense costs.

Hull insurance: Easy to argue you are careful and don't do stupid things. Yep, that will get you a reduced rate after five years of non-claims. However, twice in the last ten years I have had to listen to tales of woe from friends who have had their boat severely damaged through no fault of their own and couldn't collect from the person at fault.

If you go outside of the US, Canada or Australia beware of the rental operations. They claim no responsibility when their jet ski or Hobi crashes into your boat. You are left to chase the renter who may be from distant country where you will not find justice.

The second is even more frequent. You hire a workman who appears competent, but causes a fire, sinking or other damage only to find out the workman has no assets.

You can assume risks like these but don't cry injustice if your gamble goes bad.

Bay Pelican said:

Liability insurance. Required by many if not a majority of marinas and boat yards. Also inexpensive and covers an unlikely risk but one which can have immense costs.

Hull insurance: Easy to argue you are careful and don't do stupid things. Yep, that will get you a reduced rate after five years of non-claims. However, twice in the last ten years I have had to listen to tales of woe from friends who have had their boat severely damaged through no fault of their own and couldn't collect from the person at fault.

If you go outside of the US, Canada or Australia beware of the rental operations. They claim no responsibility when their jet ski or Hobi crashes into your boat. You are left to chase the renter who may be from distant country where you will not find justice.

The second is even more frequent. You hire a workman who appears competent, but causes a fire, sinking or other damage only to find out the workman has no assets.

You can assume risks like these but don't cry injustice if your gamble goes bad.

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Marty,

Good points, but there some other points to be made, too.

First, with liability: To have a liability judgement against you there are four things that must happen, and one is negligence... you must be negligent to be responsible, thus my comment about just not doing something stupid. You'll be fine if you don't do something stupid. (from my insurance agent).

Second, will hull insuring: You examples are just poppycock. Who the heck is going to a foreign country and have a jet ski run into them? Has it EVER happened? And who the heck lets and unknown workers on their precious boat? We certainly have a choice there.

Now, I've got NO problem if one wants to buy these products, and I do myself, when I feel the risk is appropriate. Right now, I've got both boats fully covered, and based on my comments here, I bet you're surprised. One boat I have partners in which insist on full coverage, which I'm trying to talk them out of. The other is a new boat, that will do a lot of traveling in new area with a new skipper... relatively high risk, and the premium is dirt cheap, so perhaps it makes sense.

Just with the numbers.... if one is a AVERAGE person, and partakes things with AVERAGE care and safety, and pays the AVERAGE premiums for his toys, and has the AVERAGE number of claims, he will end up loosing about 1/3rd of his dollar spent. But, I know that's not the answer folks like to hear. They all mention the multi million dollar award from someone that slipped on your boat. Heck, there's even a limit to how much liability you can purchase and if you hit a tour boat full of kids when you're drunk, you won't have enough.

Just a different view point... not good or bad.

And speaking of statistics, if one wanted to significantly increase their boating safety:
1. Get training on how to operate, not go too fast, pay attention and get some experience.
2. Don't boat drunk or under the influence of drugs.

If you do those 2 things, you could easily improve you chances of avoiding an accident by 75%!

There's a lot of other little things and one can just pull up the USCG accident stats and figure them out.

http://www.uscgboating.org/library/accident-statistics/Recreational-Boating-Statistics-2016.pdf

Seevee said:

Marty,





Second, will hull insuring: You examples are just poppycock. Who the heck is going to a foreign country and have a jet ski run into them? Has it EVER happened? And who the heck lets and unknown workers on their precious boat? We certainly have a choice there.

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Unfortunately, my examples actually have taken place. I have been in the Eastern Caribbean for ten years in April and have witnessed jet ski and Hobis T-Bone anchored cruising boats. I have also seen charted boats hit anchored boats both while underway and while dragging at anchor. At least once in each example the injured boat was unable to recover from the offending skipper/driver.

There are several trawlers on this site that have been to Rodney Bay St. Lucia. This is a well known issue.

The workman's example also is a real world example, the most memorable example of this is when a boater hired a boat yard employee to do some extra work and caused a fire on the boat. The boat yard denied liability because its employee was working off the clock.

One of the downsides to web forums is that some people post very bad advice and if you are asking the question, you probably aren't in a position to tell the bad advice from the good advice.

This is the case on this thread.

Yep, it's bad advice to assume all people need full coverage on their boats.


There are boaters who self insure for hull loss., and possibly other sections of insurance. Not many, but there is the low end of the spectrum that insurance costs seem disproportionate.


The advice here is given to spark the idea, not necessarily convince someone to do it. If they are unsure, legal advice with respect to losses should be discussed with an expert in the field.

WesK said:

One of the downsides to web forums is that some people post very bad advice and if you are asking the question, you probably aren't in a position to tell the bad advice from the good advice.

This is the case on this thread.

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Yep

Tegan,
You can try Trident Insurance also. I'm not sure about their attitude to timber boats, but worth a try.

https://tridentmarine.com.au/

They do 3rd party liability insurance on its own if that works for you.

Well said Steve (Auscan).
The thread has taken some odd turns. The OP doesn`t need convincing to get insurance. He wants it, hull and liability, but is having no success finding it. He is located in Australia, and I understand it, wants to cruise north, in Australia,he will likely not encounter rented foreign owned jetskis. He just wants help with possible avenues of insurance.
Steve made a suggestion, let`s hope it helps.

Bay Pelican said:

Unfortunately, my examples actually have taken place. I have been in the Eastern Caribbean for ten years in April and have witnessed jet ski and Hobis T-Bone anchored cruising boats. I have also seen charted boats hit anchored boats both while underway and while dragging at anchor. At least once in each example the injured boat was unable to recover from the offending skipper/driver.

There are several trawlers on this site that have been to Rodney Bay St. Lucia. This is a well known issue.

The workman's example also is a real world example, the most memorable example of this is when a boater hired a boat yard employee to do some extra work and caused a fire on the boat. The boat yard denied liability because its employee was working off the clock.

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Marty,

So you know the risk, why would you not avoid it? And if you hired a boat yard guy on the side, you get what you paid for.

And what was the bill to fix the jet ski crash?

Again....poppycock. Just a non issue.

For the record. how many times has this happened to YOU?