Marina Eviction in advance of Irma

Creekdweller · Sep 5, 2017

Greetings, All, long time lurker here and former trawler owner, still living vicariously thru your posts! I need some advice. A dear friend has a very large yacht (of the Ft Lauderdale charter ilk) and he just moved it to a new marina a couple weeks ago. Hearing thru the grapevine that he is going to be kicked out before the storm.

I have looked at the relevant Florida statute which prohibits eviction under these circumstances after a watch is issued. However, in the same statute, it allows for the marina to advise you to leave, and if you dont, the marina owner can move your boat, remove your boat to storage or take any other action to protect his marina. Then he can charge you for those "services" and he bears no resposibility to you if he fails to adequately secure your boat or your boat is otherwise damaged due to his actions, negligent or otherwise.

Is this an accurate reading of the statute? If so, it would seem prudent for every marina owner to ask slipholders to leave. Right? Is that what happens?

Thanks for any advice!

rwidman · Sep 5, 2017

I don't live in FL but my marina requires boats to be removed if a hurricane threatens the marina. In my case, they will haul my boat and store it in a hurricane rated building but of course there's a charge for this service. Boats that they cannot lift have to go somewhere else.

All this is in the contract that I signed. I suggest that your friend check his contract.

I would think it would be pretty unfair to not allow a marina owner to protect his property in the case of a storm.

BTW: You are asking for what amounts to legal advice on a boating forum. You will get plenty of opinions but if you want an accurate answer you should check with an attorney. One who deals with this sort of thing.

twistedtree · Sep 5, 2017

But what are the boat owners supposed to do with their boats? There must be 10x more boats that there is capacity to haul and store since most boats in these areas remain in the water year round. I understand a marina wanting to minimize their damage, but it doesn't seem right to push the whole problem off on the boat owners. After all, one of the reasons we pick marinas to keep our boats safe from weather.

rwidman · Sep 5, 2017

twistedtree said:
But what are the boat owners supposed to do with their boats? There must be 10x more boats that there is capacity to haul and store since most boats in these areas remain in the water year round. I understand a marina wanting to minimize their damage, but it doesn't seem right to push the whole problem off on the boat owners. After all, one of the reasons we pick marinas to keep our boats safe from weather.

That is a problem of course, but if you signed the contract (lease), it's up to you to comply with the terms of the lease. If that requires removing the boat, that's up to you.

This is one of the reasons many insurance companies won't insure boats in FL during hurricane season.

menzies · Sep 5, 2017

WesK said:
That is a problem of course, but if you signed the contract (lease), it's up to you to comply with the terms of the lease. If that requires removing the boat, that's up to you.

This is one of the reasons many insurance companies won't insure boats in FL during hurricane season.

Incorrect info for Florida.

A marina cannot make you move, even if you signed a contract saying that you will. Clearly stipulated in state law. Any such contract wording is invalid.

The state is basically saying that they prioritize life over property - boats or marinas.

rwidman · Sep 5, 2017

menzies said:
Incorrect info for Florida.

A marina cannot make you move, even if you signed a contract saying that you will. Clearly stipulated in state law. Any such contract wording is invalid.

The state is basically saying that they prioritize life over property - boats or marinas.

According to the law the OP read, if you don't move the boat, they can move it themselves and cannot be held responsible for damages. You are better off moving it yourself unless you want to get rid of it.

menzies · Sep 5, 2017

I was referring to this.

WesK said:
That is a problem of course, but if you signed the contract (lease), it's up to you to comply with the terms of the lease. If that requires removing the boat, that's up to you.

This is one of the reasons many insurance companies won't insure boats in FL during hurricane season.

BandB · Sep 5, 2017

Most marinas in our area simply make sure the boats are well secured. What they'd typically charge for is extra lines they might put on your boat or if they remove your canvas or loose items. Also, moving it to what they feel is a safer slip. They're not going to move the boat to another marina or somewhere else as simple numbers say they can't do that. Mainly you're accountable for damage your boat causes and they aren't responsible for anything. Floating docks are preferred. Still boats can be properly secured in fixed settings, typically walls. Lifting a boat and putting it on land but not having secure hurricane ties and anchors actually puts the boat in more risk. And outdoor racks are high risk. Surge in Fort Lauderdale has never been the outrageous levels you might see in some places that have 8 and 9 foot tides already.

Here is the surge map.

http://noaa.maps.arcgis.com/apps/MapSeries/index.html?appid=d9ed7904dbec441a9c4dd7b277935fad&entry=1

For Fort Lauderdale, even with a CAT 5, nothing exceeds 6'. As you move south to Dania you get a small area with 9'. Along Biscayne Bay it exceeds that.

menzies · Sep 5, 2017

Here you all go.

327.59 Marina evacuations.—
(1) After June 1, 1994, marinas may not adopt, maintain, or enforce policies pertaining to evacuation of vessels which require vessels to be removed from marinas following the issuance of a hurricane watch or warning, in order to ensure that protecting the lives and safety of vessel owners is placed before interests of protecting property.
(2) Nothing in this section may be construed to restrict the ability of an owner of a vessel or the owner’s authorized representative to remove a vessel voluntarily from a marina at any time or to restrict a marina owner from dictating the kind of cleats, ropes, fenders, and other measures that must be used on vessels as a condition of use of a marina. After a tropical storm or hurricane watch has been issued, a marina owner or operator, or an employee or agent of such owner or operator, may take reasonable actions to further secure any vessel within the marina to minimize damage to a vessel and to protect marina property, private property, and the environment and may charge a reasonable fee for such services.
(3) Notwithstanding any other provisions of this section, in order to minimize damage to a vessel and to protect marina property, private property, and the environment, a marina owner may provide by contract that in the event a vessel owner fails to promptly remove a vessel from a marina after a tropical storm or hurricane watch has been issued, the marina owner, operator, employee, or agent may remove the vessel, if reasonable, from its slip or take whatever reasonable actions are deemed necessary to properly secure a vessel to minimize damage to a vessel and to protect marina property, private property, and the environment and may charge the vessel owner a reasonable fee for any such services rendered. In order to add such a provision to a contract, the marina owner must provide notice to the vessel owner in any such contract in a font size of at least 10 points and in substantially the following form:
NOTICE TO VESSEL OWNER
The undersigned hereby informs you that in the event you fail to remove your vessel from the marina promptly (timeframe to be determined between the marina owner or operator and the vessel owner) after the issuance of a tropical storm or hurricane watch for (insert geographic area), Florida, under Florida law, the undersigned or his or her employees or agents are authorized to remove your vessel, if reasonable, from its slip or take any and all other reasonable actions deemed appropriate by the undersigned or his or her employees or agents in order to better secure your vessel and to protect marina property, private property, and the environment. You are further notified that you may be charged a reasonable fee for any such action.
(4) A marina owner, operator, employee, or agent shall not be held liable for any damage incurred to a vessel from storms or hurricanes and is held harmless as a result of such actions. Nothing in this section may be construed to provide immunity to a marina operator, employee, or agent for any damage caused by intentional acts or negligence when removing or securing a vessel as permitted under this section.
History.—s. 22, ch. 93-211; s. 11, ch. 95-146; s. 464, ch. 95-148; s. 2, ch. 95-150; s. 2, ch. 2006-309.

BandB · Sep 5, 2017

WesK said:
This is one of the reasons many insurance companies won't insure boats in FL during hurricane season.

That is so tiresome to keep hearing. Florida is the largest market and the true marine insurers have tens of thousands of insured Florida boats, year round, no exclusion for hurricanes.

Just cruise through Fort Lauderdale and look around you. Do you think all those boats aren't insured? We had a choice of many excellent insurers to choose from.

rwidman · Sep 5, 2017

What I posted is my experience and it has also been posted on this and other forums many times.

I suspect the boats in Florida have insurance are mostly insured so there must be other companies insuring them. Since the risk is much higher, I would think the rates would reflect the risk.

BandB · Sep 5, 2017

WesK said:
What I posted is my experience and it has also been posted on this and other forums many times.

I suspect the boats in Florida have insurance are mostly insured so there must be other companies insuring them. Since the risk is much higher, I would think the rates would reflect the risk.

But it's been misleading here and on other forums. There is no problem getting boat insurance in FL. That is a fact. Rates reflect risk, but not as much higher as you may think. The risk in Fort Lauderdale isn't significantly more than the risk anywhere on the East Coast. That doesn't mean this weekend might not be risky, but the only ones people have issues are seem to be their homeowners' insurer or car insurer that insures a few boats too.

Just because something is stated many times, doesn't make it true. Getting marine insurance in FL is not a problem. Perhaps getting it at the price you want is.

twistedtree · Sep 5, 2017

WesK said:
That is a problem of course, but if you signed the contract (lease), it's up to you to comply with the terms of the lease. If that requires removing the boat, that's up to you.

This is one of the reasons many insurance companies won't insure boats in FL during hurricane season.

I agree that if you agreed to it, then you need to deal with it. But it also sounds like there might be over-riding state laws.

rwidman · Sep 5, 2017

BandB said:
But it's been misleading here and on other forums. There is no problem getting boat insurance in FL. That is a fact. Rates reflect risk, but not as much higher as you may think. The risk in Fort Lauderdale isn't significantly more than the risk anywhere on the East Coast. That doesn't mean this weekend might not be risky, but the only ones people have issues are seem to be their homeowners' insurer or car insurer that insures a few boats too.

Just because something is stated many times, doesn't make it true. Getting marine insurance in FL is not a problem. Perhaps getting it at the price you want is.

It seems to me that many of the snowbirds heading south in the fall time their trips to not be south of a certain point before the end of the hurricane season. They claim it's because of their insurance company restrictions.

This is what they claim and what they post. You say it is not so. I'm left scratching my head wondering who is telling the truth.

My insurance has no such restriction but circumstances keep me where I am during hurricane season. Most of it anyway.

twistedtree · Sep 5, 2017

menzies said:
Here you all go.

327.59 Marina evacuations.—
(1) After June 1, 1994, marinas may not adopt, maintain, or enforce policies pertaining to evacuation of vessels which require vessels to be removed from marinas following the issuance of a hurricane watch or warning, in order to ensure that protecting the lives and safety of vessel owners is placed before interests of protecting property.
(2) Nothing in this section may be construed to restrict the ability of an owner of a vessel or the owner’s authorized representative to remove a vessel voluntarily from a marina at any time or to restrict a marina owner from dictating the kind of cleats, ropes, fenders, and other measures that must be used on vessels as a condition of use of a marina. After a tropical storm or hurricane watch has been issued, a marina owner or operator, or an employee or agent of such owner or operator, may take reasonable actions to further secure any vessel within the marina to minimize damage to a vessel and to protect marina property, private property, and the environment and may charge a reasonable fee for such services.
(3) Notwithstanding any other provisions of this section, in order to minimize damage to a vessel and to protect marina property, private property, and the environment, a marina owner may provide by contract that in the event a vessel owner fails to promptly remove a vessel from a marina after a tropical storm or hurricane watch has been issued, the marina owner, operator, employee, or agent may remove the vessel, if reasonable, from its slip or take whatever reasonable actions are deemed necessary to properly secure a vessel to minimize damage to a vessel and to protect marina property, private property, and the environment and may charge the vessel owner a reasonable fee for any such services rendered. In order to add such a provision to a contract, the marina owner must provide notice to the vessel owner in any such contract in a font size of at least 10 points and in substantially the following form:
NOTICE TO VESSEL OWNER
The undersigned hereby informs you that in the event you fail to remove your vessel from the marina promptly (timeframe to be determined between the marina owner or operator and the vessel owner) after the issuance of a tropical storm or hurricane watch for (insert geographic area), Florida, under Florida law, the undersigned or his or her employees or agents are authorized to remove your vessel, if reasonable, from its slip or take any and all other reasonable actions deemed appropriate by the undersigned or his or her employees or agents in order to better secure your vessel and to protect marina property, private property, and the environment. You are further notified that you may be charged a reasonable fee for any such action.
(4) A marina owner, operator, employee, or agent shall not be held liable for any damage incurred to a vessel from storms or hurricanes and is held harmless as a result of such actions. Nothing in this section may be construed to provide immunity to a marina operator, employee, or agent for any damage caused by intentional acts or negligence when removing or securing a vessel as permitted under this section.
History.—s. 22, ch. 93-211; s. 11, ch. 95-146; s. 464, ch. 95-148; s. 2, ch. 95-150; s. 2, ch. 2006-309.

OK, this allows a Marina to include the relocation policy in a contract. But their obligation when relocating your boat is "to better secure your vessel and to protect marina property, private property, and the environment". So they have an obligation to the well being of your boat as well as their Marina. So they can't just cut your boat loose or beach it somewhere to protect their Marina. And no they aren't liable for your boat, but that's true no matter what. But note that the statute also says they can't act negligently when removing boats. So if they did just cut your boat loose, or moved it to an exposed location to save their dock, your insurance company or you would have a field day with them over negligence.

BandB · Sep 5, 2017

twistedtree said:
I agree that if you agreed to it, then you need to deal with it. But it also sounds like there might be over-riding state laws.

But there is the practical world too. Marinas always have powers, with or without hurricanes, they don't exercise. Some will move boats around. Some will add lines. However, if a marina is left with 200 boats, it's not going to move them anywhere.

twistedtree · Sep 5, 2017

WesK said:
It seems to me that many of the snowbirds heading south in the fall time their trips to not be south of a certain point before the end of the hurricane season. They claim it's because of their insurance company restrictions.

This is what they claim and what they post. You say it is not so. I'm left scratching my head wondering who is telling the truth.

My insurance has no such restriction but circumstances keep me where I am during hurricane season. Most of it anyway.

Lots of people have policies that exclude FL during hurricane season, and that makes your rates cheaper. The boater has chosen not to insure for that region during that time of year. But that's very different from being unable to insure if wanted to. You are talking about two different things.

FootballFan · Sep 5, 2017

BandB said:
But it's been misleading here and on other forums. There is no problem getting boat insurance in FL. That is a fact. Rates reflect risk, but not as much higher as you may think. The risk in Fort Lauderdale isn't significantly more than the risk anywhere on the East Coast. That doesn't mean this weekend might not be risky, but the only ones people have issues are seem to be their homeowners' insurer or car insurer that insures a few boats too.

Just because something is stated many times, doesn't make it true. Getting marine insurance in FL is not a problem. Perhaps getting it at the price you want is.

My experience was that the bigger factor about insurance was the County and absentee ownership.

There are certain county's: Dade, Broward, Palm Beach, Pinellas, Hillsborough (might have missed some) that will have higher rates.

No problem getting insurance.

Previous boat I kept there year around. The bigger issue was absentee ownership - I didn't live in FL. My understanding there were only two "underwriters" which would do a policy for my situation (size, value of boat, and out of state). There were multiple insurance companies which would sell me a policy - but it came back to those two underwriters.

As I was shopping quotes, actually had one well known boat insurance company tell me that both possible underwriters already had a proposal to me from differing companies.

I picked the best deal of the two and went on down the road.

Wasn't necessarily expensive. The kicker was during season, if the boat was south of Cape Hatteras and suffered damage from a named storm - very HIGH deductible.

Just my personal experience for what its worth.

Cottontop · Sep 5, 2017

Note that when the docks are empty, the pilings, attachments, etc. only have to take the loads of the piers. Add a bunch of boats, and the loads increase greatly. I wonder what case the marinas use for the initial design.

what_barnacles · Sep 5, 2017

BandB said:
But it's been misleading here and on other forums. There is no problem getting boat insurance in FL. That is a fact.

You wont get one today. :flowers:

I cant speak for all providers but I havent seen one write a policy with a named storm heading there.

Speaking of named storms, everyone needs to read ALL documents on the providers website. They have a nasty habit of stating named storms are not covered in sometimes hard to find documents. That includes liability.

FootballFan · Sep 5, 2017

what_barnacles said:
You wont get one today.

I cant speak for all providers but I havent seen one write a policy with a named storm heading there.

Speaking of named storms, everyone needs to read ALL documents on the providers website. They have a nasty habit of stating named storms are not covered in sometimes hard to find documents. That includes liability.

I agree. Policy always states that it will not cover any names storm active at the time of issue.

BandB · Sep 5, 2017

what_barnacles said:
You wont get one today.

I cant speak for all providers but I havent seen one write a policy with a named storm heading there.

Speaking of named storms, everyone needs to read ALL documents on the providers website. They have a nasty habit of stating named storms are not covered in sometimes hard to find documents. That includes liability.

Most have a clause that any storm named prior to the effective policy date is not covered or something similar. Seems fair.

Drake · Sep 5, 2017

It seems to me that the owner of a very large yacht can well afford to consult with a good lawyer. Under these circumstances he'd be nuts not to, IMHO.

Paul

Creekdweller · Sep 5, 2017

Thank you all for the replies. I just wanted confirmation that I read it correctly, and this conforms to local practice. It seems logical, and makes some sense to me.

BandB · Sep 5, 2017

Talking about marina evacuation, I just heard the governor talk about evacuation of people. He said right now they were just instructing some people to evacuate but they didn't know yet where to tell them to go.

I will say this and understand I'm definitely not a fan of him, there is a lot already going on and in place and the level of organization for this is amazing. A lot of school systems closed tomorrow and most of the others on Thursday. Already have evacuation plans for the hospitals in Key West. A centralized supply facility in Orlando for all the shelters.

I also got an idea that they'd taken Matthew as a small warning shot, even though it's major damage was elsewhere.

Having to remind myself that 12-18" of rain or even 8-12" is very serious for some areas such as Puerto Rico and the Bahamas. After 48" in Texas it seems small but it isn't.

Creekdweller · Sep 5, 2017

I am his attorney, but am not local. Just looking for confirmtaion of local practice in the marinas.

SoWhat · Sep 5, 2017

My marina will take "reasonable" precautions to secure my boat. There is no requirement that I remove the boat. The contract clearly states it will not guarantee haul out due to an approaching storm due to limited facilities and staff.

In other words, after Sep 15, the first hurricane that turns north is the signal for haul out. Wait until the storm is off the NJ coast and you are not going to get hauled.

(I have to be within 100 miles of home port to have coverage from named storm.)

BandB · Sep 5, 2017

SoWhat said:
My marina will take "reasonable" precautions to secure my boat. There is no requirement that I remove the boat. The contract clearly states it will not guarantee haul out due to an approaching storm due to limited facilities and staff.

In other words, after Sep 15, the first hurricane that turns north is the signal for haul out. Wait until the storm is off the NJ coast and you are not going to get hauled.

(I have to be within 100 miles of home part to have coverage from named storm.)

Are the haul out facilities really set up with proper concrete anchoring and bracing and tying? I ask because I see so many boats on land that would simply become dominoes crashing over or projectiles into others in a hurricane. I know places like Jarrett are really set up to handle it and have a record of minimal damage, but most places are not.

Actually, looking at their photos, I'm not sure what Jarrett Bay has, just know they haul a lot of boats and they're well away from the coast.

Tom.B · Sep 5, 2017

So let's extrapolate this just a little.

You're in a marina that says that they will take your boat away if you don't leave for a named storm. Ok, fine, however, according to the statute, they can't just cut you loose and they can't just willy-nilly the securing of it.

Let's also speculate that we are in a place like FL where there is less space in a safe harbor than there is footage of boats.

We could again speculate that the marina owners would probably not know for sure about the boat or boats that are refusing to leave for a storm until the last minute.

How would a marina owner find the resources to not only move the boat, but secure it on land or in the water where he no longer becomes liable or put themselves at risk from the storm itself? Haul out schedules in yards and protected anchorages fill up to overflowing days before a storm hits. Rental captains are busy. Crews are busy. Would they be liable if they single-handed a strange boat.

Would it then be smarter for a marina to then just secure the subject boat (or require the owner to) as best as it can and make a claim on the boats insurance (assuming they require it) for any damage to the marina assets?

And finally... while the statues in many states say you might not have to leave, it doesn't say that the marina has any obligation to renew you lease after the storm is gone either.

SoWhat · Sep 5, 2017

BandB said:
Are the haul out facilities really set up with proper concrete anchoring and bracing and tying? I ask because I see so many boats on land that would simply become dominoes...

Dominoes either way. Finger slips are held by 2 bolts and they're not going to last long once a few boats part lines and start slamming into them.

Marina Eviction in advance of Irma

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