Electric Shock Drowning Prevention and ELCIs Explained

Art said:

I looked into the video on this... showing its use in a pool. Seems you'd need to walk all areas of the dock to learn if there was elect current any place in the water?? Not very efficient if that is so.

My question...[regarding fresh water]: If you reach off finger dock to rinse hands in water... and there were electrical current in water... would it shock you to death?

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Wash your hands one at a time.

Seriously, I can't answer your question with authority but it's the electric current passing through your heart that does the damage. One of the safety rules of working on something that may be hot is, keep one hand in your pocket. Of course that doesn't work if you're standing in a puddle.

Bruce B said:

I'm not so sure it is so crazy.
Very few people understand ac power systems yet we all use it.
There was even a joke made about wiring in this thread (tongue in cheek???).
The reality is that this is no joking matter and people die from electrocution regularly.
I've seen things in ac boat wiring that made my hair stand on end!
No, I am ok with the safety devices on our boat.
Bruce

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I cringe every time I see a "how do I wire my boat?" post on a web forum. My thought is, if you have to ask, you shouldn't be doing your own boat wiring.

WesK said:

I cringe every time I see a "how do I wire my boat?" post on a web forum. My thought is, if you have to ask, you shouldn't be doing your own boat wiring.

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DIY overload sometimes. I admire those of you with such DIY talent and love. However, when I see some who are clearly over their heads start to mess with electricity, on boats, on docks, or in homes and businesses, it scares me.

It took our electrician almost 3 hours to do the whole dock slowly checking the ladders and other points. It is an aluminum framed dock with aluminum safety ladders. This sensor reacts to millivolts. when he got a hit he would then turn off the adjacent boats in order then the power to the whole quadrant to isolate the problem. The two older boats found with hot wiring have been turned off and their owners informed that they need to repair faults prior to a reconnect with our electrician present to retest.

GFC said:

We had an ESD a couple of weeks ago where a 15 year old boy jumped in the water and didn't resurface. Two of the firemen who responded also got shocked but were not seriously injured. It took awhile to shut off power to an adjacent pump station before they could enter the water to search for the body.


That brought up a question during the course of many discussions about ESD:
Why don't fish, beavers, otters and water birds (geese and ducks) have ESD problems?

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Those animals especially fish can sense electric currents and I think either swim away. Or they shock a little and drift away then recover.

sdowney717 said:

Those animals especially fish can sense electric currents and I think either swim away. Or they shock a little and drift away then recover.

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Hence the reason the electric fence on the Illinois River works.

Thanks. That's kind of what I figured but I wanted to ask those of you who know a LOT more about this than I do.

BandB said:

DIY overload sometimes. I admire those of you with such DIY talent and love. However, when I see some who are clearly over their heads start to mess with electricity, on boats, on docks, or in homes and businesses, it scares me.

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You are light years ahead of me. I don't even believe in electricity.

Most of it isnt rocket science.

Certain principles are different than dirt electrical and must be understood. Follow the rules for the rest and most circuits have ready made diagrams to follow to make it easy....if you are so inclined to look up, study and learn.

Beginner boaters probably shouldn't rewire a boat. But someone who has been studying the principles for years and asks good questions is probably more capable than the yard techs who would work on your boat that aren't ABYC cetified...or even the qualified ones possibly.

psneeld said:

Most of it isnt rocket science.

Certain principles are different than dirt electrical and must be understood. Follow the rules for the rest and most circuits have ready made diagrams to follow to maje it easy....if you are so inclined to look up, study and learn.

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Electrical circuits have always been a mystery to me. I have never understood something as basic as how one light can be switched by more than one switch in your home. I finally decided that I'm too stupid to understand circuits so try to avoid them whenever possible. Now, it is true that I traced down a dead short in my boats AC circuit, but I think that had more to do with luck than anything else.

dhays said:

Electrical circuits have always been a mystery to me. I have never understood something as basic as how one light can be switched by more than one switch in your home. I finally decided that I'm too stupid to understand circuits so try to avoid them whenever possible. Now, it is true that I traced down a dead short in my boats AC circuit, but I think that had more to do with luck than anything else.

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5 minutes with a good teacher and some diagrams to follow and you would be fine for branch circuits.

But like many things in life...its what you are willing to open your mind to.

For 35 years I had military medical taking care of me. I might be needing glasses again soon and being thrown out of military medical, I really dont even know even where to start. Bet you do and could teach me in 5 minutes, with some handouts.

psneeld said:

5 minutes with a good teacher and some diagrams to follow and you would be fine for branch circuits.



But like many things in life...its what you are willing to open your mind to.



For 35 years I had military medical taking care of me. I might be needing glasses again soon and being thrown out of military medical, I really dont even know even where to start. Bet you do and could teach me in 5 minutes, with some handouts.

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Yeah, that is true. However, one of the best quotes I've seen is in Peggie H's signature. Something to effect that if you can't explain it to a 6 year old, you don't understand it. Many of us here do that on a daily basis. I do it for each patient I see. I have just a few minutes to explain things well enough for them to make an informed decision. That is hard to do in some cases as the information I am providing is completely foreign to them yet it is important that they understand enough to make an informed decision.

Electricians that I've dealt with have to do the same thing. They have to explain to me what needs to be done and what my options are so I can make a decision. That is a challenge for them.

Even as a tow boat skipper, you had to explain what you could and couldn't do, how you were going to do it, and do all that in such a way that the stressed out person understands and agrees. Not an easy task.

The magic words...." just sit back and relax....have you home in about 25 minutes"...

Like USCG aviation, the evolution is designed to happen with zero input from the rescuee....often, it goes much better that way.....

On a previous boat, I got a shock by touching the water in the bilge. Measured 48 volts AC in the bilge water. Found a PO had replaced the shore power inlet and had reversed the hot and neutral, reverse polarity neon bulb had aparently burned out, he had also used 14 gauge white wire which had turned brown from the heat. I replaced the inlet and used the proper size wire and the voltage in the bilge water was gone. I have no idea how long it had been like that but I had owned the boat for about 3 monts at the time I found the problem.

Even the guy in the phone book can be a hack, but that doesnt mean every PO is clueless, a hack, or doesn't do satisfactory to excellent work.

Even though many may be hacks.

My tactic is to stay out of water except for taking a shower under clean water. Trying to avoid alligators, sharks, parasites, bacteria and such. That includes pools and hot tubs.

MP

What do you do for fun? LOL

Bigsfish said:

MP

What do you do for fun? LOL

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He cruises on cruise ships, with at least as much potential for illness as the items he mentioned. You have to choose your risks and I don't argue with anything he says. Just he's chosen another pleasure that also has risks.

As novice cruise ship users compared to mp, wash your hands,use hand sanitizers provided, take care with rest rooms, avoid anyone coughing/sneezing etc, you should be fine. Something approaching obsessive compulsive hand washing helps.

BruceK said:

As novice cruise ship users compared to mp, wash your hands,use hand sanitizers provided, take care with rest rooms, avoid anyone coughing/sneezing etc, you should be fine. Something approaching obsessive compulsive hand washing helps.

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Mostly. Doesn't really protect you against Norovirus. Also, not against the ship having major issues with sewage, which is rare but has happened. Norovirus remains the "Cruise Ship Disease" although assisted living facilities run a good strong second and elementary schools third.

Humancell said:

Wow ... what a great, small tool that is easy to carry with you for testing! Added to my list for when kids are wanting to swim!

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While this device may be useful in alerting marinas and boat owners to faults, it should not be used as a "it's safe to swim here" monitor. As I noted in the article, electrical faults occur in the blink of an eye, rather than gradually. If you are in the current path when the fault occurs, the monitor will do you no good. Don't swim in marinas.

Some marinas are installing GFI's on pedestals, and while the effort has good intentions, they have been the source of much frustration as these devices can trip at anywhere between 5 and 30 mA depending upon what's installed. At the lower end of the scale nuisance trips are very common. The ELCI is set at 30 mA, if it's tripping, you know you have a problem.

Comodave said:

On a previous boat, I got a shock by touching the water in the bilge. Measured 48 volts AC in the bilge water. Found a PO had replaced the shore power inlet and had reversed the hot and neutral, reverse polarity neon bulb had aparently burned out, he had also used 14 gauge white wire which had turned brown from the heat. ...................... .

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Well, anybody can be an electrician with five minutes of explanation.

Some are faster learners than others.... I think Dave would be an excellent candidate....

Steve DAntonio said:

.............................. Some marinas are installing GFI's on pedestals, and while the effort has good intentions, they have been the source of much frustration as these devices can trip at anywhere between 5 and 30 mA depending upon what's installed. At the lower end of the scale nuisance trips are very common. The ELCI is set at 30 mA, if it's tripping, you know you have a problem.

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Yes, you know you have a problem and should have it looked at ASAP by a qualified marine electrician.

This spring we set out on a cruise and were a bit worried when we stopped at a marina with GFCIs on the pedestals (a recently rebuilt marina). We were pleased to find out that we had no electrical problems and no breaker tripping.

Later in our cruise, we stopped at a marina where each dock was protected by a single "master" GFCI. Again we had no problem but I have to wonder whose bright idea it was to wire a marina where a single faulty boat could take out power to thirty or more boats.

Why not go to the Horse's mouth, the discoverer of ESD, Kevin Ritz, A Preventable Tragedy and where Steve D'Antonio learned everything he knows on the issue.

"I recently posted an article on the subject of electric shock drowning. It's short..."
Oh groan! He made a funny.

If your boat has undetected ground faults, that is bad.
Fix them. All boats can have a tight electric system which will not trip a gfci.

You might still get an occasional nuisance trip anyway, with no fault in your wiring.

I don't really like GFCI for the fridge for obvious reasons. So in my thinking for practical reasons, GFCI should be on your boat, not the dock, put ELCI on the dock.
If I lived aboard, GFCI on the dock would be ok, as I could reset it quickly.

Today's AFCI and GFCI technology is reliable.

boatpoker said:

Why not go to the Horse's mouth, the discoverer of ESD, Kevin Ritz, A Preventable Tragedy and where Steve D'Antonio learned everything he knows on the issue.

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Kevin and his son Lucas's story is heart wrenching, I get a lump in my throat every time I watch the video, which is linked on my website's home page Electric Shock Drowning Prevention Association - Home Kevin is owed a great debt by the marine industry and boat owners for championing ESD prevention.

In fact while I know and respect Kevin, we don't communicate often. I've learned much of what I know on the subject during ABYC electrical and corrosion certification classes taught by Captain Dave Rifkin (USN ret). Dave is an internationally recognized expert on the subject, as the saying goes, he's forgotten more about ESD than most others know. He has a consulting firm, Quality Marine Services, which, among other things, educates and assists marinas and others in preventing ESD. When an ESD occurs, he's almost always called to carry out an analysis. He was consulted on the design and production of the stray current monitoring device, which is designed for swimming pools, mentioned earlier in the thread.

WesK said:

Well, anybody can be an electrician with five minutes of explanation.

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psneeld said:

Some are faster learners than others.... I think Dave would be an excellent candidate....

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The point I was trying to make was not to make someone competent with a five minute explanation but for a competent person to explain what they are doing. Huge difference.

A pilot can tell a non-pilot in 5 minutes what it is they are doing when they take off or land. However, no way someone could do it competently after a 5 minute explanation.

I'd make a perfect poster boy for "just enough information to be dangerous" on most subjects.

There is a thread on another forum where the guy is "installing a new 100 amp electrical panel". His question is, he has (somehow) figured out that he needs #2 cable from his batteries to the panel but he can't find a terminal to fit #2 cable and still fit the input terminals on the panel.

Should this guy be wiring a boat?

BTW: Most of the responses and questionable as well including the one who wondered why the length of both the positive and negative conductors needed to be included in the calculations.