8 Knots - Are you kidding?

What if you are sitting in the marina bar one day and mention to friends that you'd love to go fishing tomorrow, but you can't afford the gas. Then a friend pipes up and says "We'd like to go fishing too, how about we all go together and split the fuel?". Is that legal if you hold a captains ticket and its your own boat? How about if you don't have any licenses at all?

Woodland Hills said:

What if you are sitting in the marina bar one day and mention to friends that you'd love to go fishing tomorrow, but you can't afford the gas. Then a friend pipes up and says "We'd like to go fishing too, how about we all go together and split the fuel?". Is that legal if you hold a captains ticket and its your own boat? How about if you don't have any licenses at all?

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I would consider that legal, but some would not. The problem is that paying was a requirement to go, so does it remain voluntary?

I would interpret that as frieds having fun whether the owner is a licensed captain or not.

Now if at the bar and said aloud,and the discussion started up with strangers....gray in my book ...if all they did was buy the gas. Personally, I would lean towards it being outside the intent of the law.

A big part of it is.... do the people boarding the boat have reasonable information or expectation of the captain's abilities?

My question to the USCG about whether a person needs a license to run a boat for pay, when hired by the owner and the passengers are just family and friends was ducked for years. What. I did get eas a squeaky no as the family and friends were not oaing passengers. They put their trust in the owner to pick a good person to drive and the pay is really secondary.

What if a group wanting to use my boat rent the boat from me, the boat owner. And, then at some point, because I am aboard when they leave the dock in my rented boat they simply ask me to pilot my own boat that they rented with me aboard... even if I have no captain's license.

Being that they are boat renters they too could captain the boat if they wanted.

Additionally, I could have a clause in the boat rental contract where it is mandatory that I be aboard if the boat is to leave the dock. Not necessarily acting as captain or not acting as captain mind you... just that for the rented boat to leave the dock I must be aboard my rented boat.

Then it seems that this legal boat rental supersedes the need for me having a captain's license as the boat renters would have paid me a rental cost only for the boat itself. Then while I'm mandatorily [per boat rental contract]aboard the boat they may ask me if I would captain my own boat for no pay as a captain.

What say ya??!!

Art said:

What if a group wanting to use my boat rent the boat from me, the boat owner. And, then at some point, because I am aboard when they leave the dock in my rented boat they simply ask me to pilot my own boat that they rented with me aboard... even if I have no captain's license.

Being that they are boat renters they too could captain the boat if they wanted.

Additionally, I could have a clause in the boat rental contract where it is mandatory that I be aboard if the boat is to leave the dock. Not necessarily acting as captain or not acting as captain mind you... just that for the rented boat to leave the dock I must be aboard my rented boat.

Then it seems that this legal boat rental supersedes the need for me having a captain's license as the boat renters would have paid me a rental cost only for the boat itself. Then while I'm mandatorily [per boat rental contract]aboard the boat they may ask me if I would captain my own boat for no pay as a captain.

What say ya??!!

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No. The minute you captained it, you became a charter. This one is very clear and discussed on a lot of CG published documents.

Art said:

What if a group wanting to use my boat rent the boat from me, the boat owner. And, then at some point, because I am aboard when they leave the dock in my rented boat they simply ask me to pilot my own boat that they rented with me aboard... even if I have no captain's license.

Being that they are boat renters they too could captain the boat if they wanted.

Additionally, I could have a clause in the boat rental contract where it is mandatory that I be aboard if the boat is to leave the dock. Not necessarily acting as captain or not acting as captain mind you... just that for the rented boat to leave the dock I must be aboard my rented boat.

Then it seems that this legal boat rental supersedes the need for me having a captain's license as the boat renters would have paid me a rental cost only for the boat itself. Then while I'm mandatorily [per boat rental contract]aboard the boat they may ask me if I would captain my own boat for no pay as a captain.

What say ya??!!

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Do you have insurance that covers you renting the boat?
Do you have your rental assigned to a valid business ID?
Have you been inspected as a rental boat?

All are required where we are.

smitty477 said:

Do you have insurance that covers you renting the boat?
Do you have your rental assigned to a valid business ID?
Have you been inspected as a rental boat?

All are required where we are.

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All are required where we are.[/QUOTE]

That post I placed is just a premise.

Yes... needed increments for renting a boat would be covered.

According to # 245 makes it seam that my premise would not be thought well of in court of law.

Not really a big concern of mine because I'd not bother to do that anyway!

I do love to make premise on things though!

We can play the "what if" game forever. If your involved in any situation that may result in a law suit you will the best maritime attorney you can find, not your regular attorney no matter how hood he may be but one who specializes in maritime law which is very complicated and has its own nuances. I have a good friend who does this for a living and some of his stories are really odd and don't make sense to most of us. Oh, and gave plenty of money because he is very well paid.

2geer said:

Briefly saw 13+ knots SOG coming out of the Old Port in Montreal last week with the monster current running up there now. After that experience, I felt quite comfortable landing back at 7+ . We were passed by numerous express cruisers, fishing boats and even a few people on bicycles (Chambly Canal). My wife and I enjoy the slow boat and wouldn't have it any other way.

Dave Geer
M/V Stout kk42-087

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Just east of Montreal the current increases in what I believe are called the Richelieu Rapids. With minimum RPMs the Gps told me we were going 14.6 kts. I felt I was out of control and was not very happy.

Different with trawler I guess. I used to have runabout (twin engine jet boat) that did 50 mph.

If a guest onboard offers to contribute to fuel I usually say " costs no more for fuel with 4 or 6 onboard than 2"
But, I do appreciate efforts some guests make with food and drinks contributions. We had one guest for a weekend who virtually victualed the boat for the weekend, too generous, but appreciated.

It will be a new world, but not painful. I have been cruising long distances in a sailboat for years on the Great Lakes at 6.5 knots hull speed, usually less than that while motoring or sailing. Even so, you still get there. Now I have a GB32, just bought it and look forward to the fact that I will go steadily at 6.5 knots, not have to tack any, nor raise and lower sails. On long stretches, you sit on the deck with your e-reader, watch a movie on your electronic device, or even better enjoy the clouds. Somehow, 50 miles seems to go by in a blink. Main thing is to plan your trips, get up early so you do not get caught anchoring after dark, and know the charting of where you will pull in by heart. You will love it.

Go for it. Just plan your trips so you get to anchorages before nightfall. In the meantime, reading, watching a movie on your device, or whatever will make the trip go by in a blink.

markpierce said:

........... If I was in a hurry, I'd travel by automobile or airplane.

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Exactly. I have said that same thing many times.

grandbanksbayfield said:

It will be a new world, but not painful. I have been cruising long distances in a sailboat for years on the Great Lakes at 6.5 knots hull speed, usually less than that while motoring or sailing. Even so, you still get there. Now I have a GB32, just bought it and look forward to the fact that I will go steadily at 6.5 knots, not have to tack any, nor raise and lower sails. On long stretches, you sit on the deck with your e-reader, watch a movie on your electronic device, or even better enjoy the clouds. Somehow, 50 miles seems to go by in a blink. Main thing is to plan your trips, get up early so you do not get caught anchoring after dark, and know the charting of where you will pull in by heart. You will love it.

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While you're lounging during cruise... I hope someone acts as spotter. AP is so person at helm does not need to steer. AP was not intended so all visuals stop for extended periods. At least a spotter should be on duty; preferably at helm per chance abrupt action become needed.

Just sayen!

"With minimum RPMs the Gps told me we were going 14.6 kts. I felt I was out of control and was not very happy."

That "minimum RPMs " is scary , most boats require speed thru the water to stay under control.

20K is not more dangerous than 14.6 , if you are in control.

Back to Al's original question

When fishing, the unspoken standard is to split fuel, bait and launch costs evenly. It probably grew out of friends going out together in smaller boats who want to pitch in on the expenses so the boat owner doesn't absorb all the costs. I never quote a figure, but if pressed, will share the day's fuel cost. At $10 per hr, it rarely exceeds $50 total for the day. If someone brings lots of great bait, I won't take their offered fuel $$.

Do folks in other parts of the world see it the same? __________________
Al

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Yes, Al. that's the way it has always been here in St. Petersburg, among me and my fishing friends.

(This thread has seen more drift than a day spent drift-fishing the flats.)

I believe without a commercial license it is illegal to take money from friends fishing on your boat.

Dani-lu said:

I believe without a commercial license it is illegal to take money from friends fishing on your boat.

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My understanding is that sharing the cost of fuel with your friends is not a problem. Making a profit from your friends by fishing would be a problem.

As always, keep in mind that I know less than John Snow.

dhays said:

My understanding is that sharing the cost of fuel with your friends is not a problem. Making a profit from your friends by fishing would be a problem.

As always, keep in mind that I know less than John Snow.

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Friendly cash transfers... with no paper work... verbally termed "gifts"... is not a problem. IMO

One aspect of power boats I never see discussed here is wake making. As former cruisers in a 28' Yawl which our outboard 9.9hp auxiliary would push at 6-kts, we are very pleased with our Albin-25 which will steam along at 8 knots all day while kicking up only a very mild wake and while burning only a bit over 1/2 gal/hour. What's not to like?

Possibly one reason wakes are not discussed here is the almost universal love for the deep-V hull, which is notorious among sailors for wake-making. There are man other ways to shape a boat's bottom aft, the rounded run with a hook under our Albin being just one example.

Moby Nick said:

One aspect of power boats I never see discussed here is wake making. As former cruisers in a 28' Yawl which our outboard 9.9hp auxiliary would push at 6-kts, we are very pleased with our Albin-25 which will steam along at 8 knots all day while kicking up only a very mild wake and while burning only a bit over 1/2 gal/hour. What's not to like?

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Congrats! You've got it made... Carry On!!

A different perspective.... we're sailors, "upgrading" from 5 knots to 8 knots in our new to us Mariner 40 trawler. Light speed. We're not 100% sure we want to go that fast as we do The Great Loop... seems too fast to see wildlife & the sights. In our Passport 37 sloop we went from Annapolis to Cartagena Colombia and back to Florida ... now with our Mariner 40, our next adventure is The Great Loop ... hopefully the transition to "the dark side" isn't too traumatic.....

dhays said:

My understanding is that sharing the cost of fuel with your friends is not a problem. Making a profit from your friends by fishing would be a problem....

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Art said:

Friendly cash transfers... with no paper work... verbally termed "gifts"... is not a problem. IMO

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It used to be strictly prohibited for an unlicensed skipper to accept any consideration (payment) from his passengers, whether in cash, fuel, or even a cooler full of sandwiches. Congress amended the definition of "consideration" effective 1 October 1999 to allow voluntary sharing of expenses.

From CFR 46 175.400:
Consideration means an economic benefit, inducement, right, or profit including pecuniary payment accruing to an individual, person, or entity, but not including a voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of the voyage, by monetary contribution or donation of fuel, food, beverage, or other supplies.

The guidance by the feds is that the operative word here is voluntary. The skipper can't require it, can't even ask for it, but may accept it if offered.

Appreciate the clarification!

JSI said:

A different perspective.... we're sailors, "upgrading" from 5 knots to 8 knots in our new to us Mariner 40 trawler. Light speed. We're not 100% sure we want to go that fast as we do The Great Loop... seems too fast to see wildlife & the sights. In our Passport 37 sloop we went from Annapolis to Cartagena Colombia and back to Florida ... now with our Mariner 40, our next adventure is The Great Loop ... hopefully the transition to "the dark side" isn't too traumatic.....

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My concern is the opposite. I generally don’t worry too much about currents, aside from current against wind causing dangerous wave conditions. I guess if I get a displacement trawler, we will just need to spend additional time planning for currents, especially in inlets and the gulf stream.

Sabre602 said:

It used to be strictly prohibited for an unlicensed skipper to accept any consideration (payment) from his passengers, whether in cash, fuel, or even a cooler full of sandwiches. Congress amended the definition of "consideration" effective 1 October 1999 to allow voluntary sharing of expenses.

From CFR 46 175.400:
Consideration means an economic benefit, inducement, right, or profit including pecuniary payment accruing to an individual, person, or entity, but not including a voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of the voyage, by monetary contribution or donation of fuel, food, beverage, or other supplies.

The guidance by the feds is that the operative word here is voluntary. The skipper can't require it, can't even ask for it, but may accept it if offered.

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We're getting caught up in the minutia of "what ifs".

If everything we daily do is kept under the microscope to expressly, strictly adhere to the letter of the law... a lot of fun in life would be extinguished. Vast majority of laws were/are not written to provide fun; but, rather they are in existence to enable, legally rectifiable outcomes if real problems occur during the days of "living" our lives.

"Things" seldom go to court until some misstep or accident occurs and law suit is begun [especially due to no insurance coverage because illegal business practice(s) had happened or have been ongoing]... or... there is a "sting" that occurred due to surveillance on specific incorrect actions over a period of time... or... some one missed too many payments or services of some sort.

"Things" do not often go to court, when:

To occasionally have "cash" change hands in many instances, regarding many circumstances that may not be in keeping with the letter of the law... but... no one really gives a hoot as long as transferred "cash" denominations is felt by everyone to be in fair keeping with enjoyments procured, items received or services rendered.

Live life. Have fun. Be careful. And, use cash only with no paper work attached nor prying ears listening... when appropriate!

Happy Life Daze! - Art

"I guess if I get a displacement trawler, we will just need to spend aditional time planning for currents, especially in inlets and the gulf stream."

If you will be using the AICW , forgetaboutit !

There are so many inlets and outlets that what is lost to current for 5 miles is gained in the next 5 miles.

Not always , but not worth bothering with on a daily basis.

Once inside few actually use inlets as going south bound the outside wind and current are foul.

Going north the extra boost is not worth 24 -72 hour passages , unless you are in a hurry , and fully maned.

JSI said:

A different perspective.... we're sailors, "upgrading" from 5 knots to 8 knots in our new to us Mariner 40 trawler. Light speed. We're not 100% sure we want to go that fast as we do The Great Loop... seems too fast to see wildlife & the sights. In our Passport 37 sloop we went from Annapolis to Cartagena Colombia and back to Florida ... now with our Mariner 40, our next adventure is The Great Loop ... hopefully the transition to "the dark side" isn't too traumatic.....

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"A different perspective" - consider this , you will really love having an 8 knot capability when you are in 5 knot currents.