Hit Me With A Dose Of Reality!

Hey Everyone,

My wife and I just submitted documents to attempt a pre-approval for a boat loan. Once we hear back on that (hopefully with a 'green light'), it will be time to seriously start the search for our perfect boat. With that in mind, I wanted to share some info on how we intend to use a boat, our "must have's" and "wants", and then get your opinions and feedback on whether a particular boat I'm lusting after might be a good fit or if I'm looking at the wrong thing all-together!

First off, here's my current "baseline" for what a perfect boat looks like given our needs, desires, budget and personal taste. I'm not saying this is THE boat, but I would LOVE to hear feedback from this awesome community as to what the good, bad or ugly might be with a boat like this....so that I know if my head is even in the right place right now in terms of what a "good" boat might look like.

I'm not speaking so much about the condition of the boat (unless you notice an obvious issue from the pics)...as I realize that would require a thorough survey, mechanical survey and sea trial. So, i'm more thinking along the lines of layout, mechanical setup, etc...

The "baseline" boat: Used 1991 Ocean Alexander 440 Sundeck, Bellingham, Wa - 98229 - BoatTrader.com

Now, here is some additional info on how we will be using the boat, what layouts we are looking for, etc.....

* We will be living aboard the boat FULL TIME in the Pacific Northwest

* Realistically, the majority of our time will be spent at the marina, hooked up to shore power. HOWEVER, we do plan on taking the boat out for some cruising around the sound. Day trips, weekend trips anchoring or mooring and maybe some 1-2 weeks trips up to the San Juans. As we gain experience, perhaps the Inside Passage to Alaska would likely be the furthest we would go.

* Regarding layout. A fully enclosed sundeck is a NEED for us. We recently stayed on a 42' Grand Banks for 3 nights as an inital "test run". It was a nice boat, but it really seemed like not having a covered sundeck in the PNW is a massive waste of the space above the aft cabin (for liveaboard purposes anyway)

* Regarding our boating experience: We are members of a sailing club and have taken a few courses to get the certifications necessary for them to let us sail the Puget Sound on our own. HOWEVER, when it comes to boats larger than 30', or power boats in general, we have ZERO experience. I fully intend on taking classes (diesel engines, electrical systems, etc), and likely hiring a captain to spend at least a few days with us once we get the boat.

Ok, I'll cut myself off here. Sorry for the long post. Again, as the title says, hit me with a dose of reality. I'm lusting after Ocean Alexanders, TollyCrafts, and some DeFevers right now. I think I've we've got the layout dialed in (sundeck, aft-cabin CPMY). I think we've got our ideal size dialed in (42-46').

So....am I on the right track? Am I an idiot? Am I missing something? Does a boat like the one I showed lack something that is, in your opinion, important or critical given out intended use? Let me know!

Oh, one more thing. Thank you in advance for your feedback. This community has been beyond amazing, helpful and informative. Every single time I ask a question, the feedback and advice you supply is above and beyond what I could ever hope to expect!

Increase your search to include the Bayliner 4788 and the Meridian 490.

Tough to beat that design as a liveaboard.

ksanders said:

Increase your search to include the Bayliner 4788 and the Meridian 490.

Tough to beat that design as a liveaboard.

Click to expand...

LOA on the Bayliner 4788 is a bit too long I'm afraid. We need to stay under 50' for marina / slip purposes. There is a lot to like about that layout though. I do want to check out a few of the 4588's as part of our search as well. With a max budget of $150k I think the Meridian's will be a bit out of our grasp.

Jeff,

I agree completely about needing covered outside space for a PNW boat. Nothing against Grand Banks, but that design is not something I would want in this region. A covered and enclosed sun deck would be good, or a boat with a decent covered cockpit such as the Bayliner 4788 that Kevin mentioned.

Edit: Just saw the reply after I posted. Length would be a problem with the 4788 but definitely check out a 4588. Keep in mind that the Bayliner will be a twin engine design, for good or ill.

Jeff good luck with the financing. While I have limited hands on experience with brands of boats I have done a lot of browsing. My best suggestions would be
1. make a list of must haves and it's seems you have done.
2. don't rule any brand out
3. when you find what you want have it surveyed
I am sure others will have excellent ideas.
Good Luck,
Kevin

From your post, you seem to be going in with both eyes wide open even down to taking the time to charter the GB to see how it fits. I would expand your search to also include Hatteras. We have liveaboard friends who live on a mid eighties 53 Hatteras and the price point is similar to what you're looking at.

You also mentioned that you're looking at financing part of the purchase. You'll probably find that lenders will give more preferential terms on a boat that is less than 15 years old. All the best in your search and enjoy the process.

Hit me with a dose of reality...


With what you have posted so far my thoughts would tend to be much more general in concern....
- Have you ever tried to live in a smaller space
- Might you get sea sick just rocking at the dock one night
- Have you ever rode out a storm in a boat
- Do you have a place to put "all your stuff"
- If you have cars/trucks where will they go
- Will you be OK with work life and mail/phones/data
- Do you have any pets
- Are you planning for any kids


If you have never tried any of these things before for weeks at a time then I would have some concerns before picking out a boat.
If you have please ignore this post and return to the regularly scheduled programming.

We typically live on board 4 to 6 months a year in the PNW and cruise for a few months during that time. The boat gets smaller as time on board increases. I find the more space that can be enclosed the better it is. We have an enclosed cockpit and fly bridge. The canvas is on slides much like a patio door that can just slide behind other panels to open the area up.

Galley with easy access storage is a must for us, as well as enough counter space to prep meals and clean up. A trash compactor is nice to have as well as an icemaker. The living area should be comfortable and have enough space so one person can get around without disturbing the other. Heating is a big deal we prefer a diesel powered hydronic it's quiet,clean and keeps the boat comfortable.

The beds should be a standard size and be able to walk around, we have his and her heads in the stateroom that helps too. Sewage can be a big deal you don't want to move the boat every week to empty the holding tank so at slip pump out is a must.

A washer and dryer is nice but a convenient laundramat is better.

We have covered decks so staying dry while getting the door open is not an issue but we have had boats where you get rained on while trying to unlock the cabin door, its worse if you have an armful.

good luck living on the water is worth the hassles.

Enclosed sundeck? Have big bucks for custom canvas? Alternative, have time, lots of time, consider purchasing a decent walking foot sewing machine and do your own. This stuff is not rocket science and you can easily save enough to purchase a good machine along with all the materials needed for the job and have big $$$ left over. Check the videos at Sailrite and YouTube.

dhays said:

Jeff,

I agree completely about needing covered outside space for a PNW boat. Nothing against Grand Banks, but that design is not something I would want in this region. A covered and enclosed sun deck would be good, or a boat with a decent covered cockpit such as the Bayliner 4788 that Kevin mentioned.

Edit: Just saw the reply after I posted. Length would be a problem with the 4788 but definitely check out a 4588. Keep in mind that the Bayliner will be a twin engine design, for good or ill.

Click to expand...

If overall length is a key the 4588 will poke out a bit over 45 as well - unless the pulpit has been modified. The molded hull on the 45 is 45'4" without swim platform or pulpit.

PNW Jeff; said:

The "baseline" boat: Used 1991 Ocean Alexander 440 Sundeck, Bellingham, Wa - 98229 - BoatTrader.com

Click to expand...

Are you lusting over pictures or have you been aboard?
Never mind, here are some questions I would ask about THAT boat, that will help when looking at any boat for your needs.

Any heat on that thing?
No gap records, from first launch, on the 8.2s?
Was it bought last year in BC?
And, um, how far away is the nearest pump out?

You just described our current boat and I could live on it, but there are a lot of stairs with that design. I haven't been on one, but I love the pictures I've seen of older Cheoy Lee 55's. Galley, Salon, and Aft Deck are all on one level, which looks nice, plus it has a stove (how cool is that!). And is there really that much difference between 46 and 55?

Just saw the post about needing to stay within a certain length...maybe find a different marina?

smitty477 said:

If overall length is a key the 4588 will poke out a bit over 45 as well - unless the pulpit has been modified. The molded hull on the 45 is 45'4" without swim platform or pulpit.

Click to expand...

If I recall he needs to stay under 50' LOA

dhays said:

If I recall he needs to stay under 50' LOA

Click to expand...

Yep, that's correct. Why? Because we're ONLY considering one marina which happens to be EXACTLY where we want to be (in our favorite neighborhood, close to work, outside of the locks, etc etc etc).

Once you go beyond 50', the slip size goes all the way up to 60' and the cost difference for moorage is larger than we are willing to go.

While I was hoping to stick with a 46' slip, I'm not opposed to going to a 50'.

Hawgwash said:

Are you lusting over pictures or have you been aboard?
Never mind, here are some questions I would ask about THAT boat, that will help when looking at any boat for your needs.

Any heat on that thing?
No gap records, from first launch, on the 8.2s?
Was it bought last year in BC?
And, um, how far away is the nearest pump out?

Click to expand...

Admittedly, I'm lusting over pictures, layout, and what I've heard about the brand.

Great points you make regarding this specific boat...and all of them would be things that would need to be answered.

The next step for us, after we get pre-approval on a loan, is to step on board as many boats as possible to see what they *actually* look and feel like. We've been on probably a dozen boats in this size range and even stayed on a GB 42' for a few days....but I fully realize we are nowhere close to narrowing our search to the eventual boat that suits us best.

Did you have a captain on the GB you chartered, or were you running that yourselves ? Was the layout similar ? Did it have thrusters? Will there be just the two of you on board ? Are both of you committed to being very active participants in the docking/departing process ? The lower helm doesn't seem to offer lines of sight or communication to the stern, and there's no pilot house door to stick your head out of. I think I would find that boat difficult to dock without thrusters and electronic communication, a lot of practice and a lot of trust in my mate's judgement. Going from a 42 foot boat for 3 days to owning a 50 footer seems like a big jump. Hopefully you were controlling that 42 like a boss and could make it dance to whatever tune you wanted.

If I read your post correctly you're looking for a boat to be primarily a full time liveaboard, secondarily a local cruiser. Sounds like you are still working full time? That puts the daily "live-ability" attributes at the top of the list.

It's hard to tell from the pics but I don't see an easy way on and off the boat carrying sacks of groceries. Not a big deal in summer, but in rain soaked winter you need to be able to get doors open, get yourself and your bags in quickly and easily.

Take a critical look at the main saloon / wheel house. Will you be happy with that built in seating? Is that where you want to spend your winter evenings when the enclosed sundeck is too cold? Pretty much late Oct through early May. The enclosed sundeck is nice but it won't be usefull most of the winter unless you enjoy being cold. Cabin fever on a PNW winter liveaboard is a real concern.

Will you be happy with the ladders (stairs)? Carrying all your stuff? In winter?

I don't see any mention of the heating system or the electrical service. If your slip and or boat is limited to 30 AMPs you're going to need more than electric heat to make it through the winter. According to Sure Marine it takes about 50,000 BTU to handle the colder days for a liveaboard. To get that out of space heaters requires more heaters than you can power. With 50 AMP service you'll get a little closer but you still won't make it.

50,000 BTU = 14,654 WATTs = 122 AMPs. Speaking from personal experience you can get by with a lot less but you won't like it.

Hydronic is the way to go, lots of heat and it heats your hot water too leaving more of the electrical service for the rest of your liveaboard needs.

PNW Jeff; said:

We recently stayed on a 42' Grand Banks for 3 nights as an inital "test run".

Click to expand...

Jeff, I keep coming back to this line and wonder what it means.

Did you take a change of clothes and hang out with friends at the dock or actually look at it from a middle of January home where wet stinky laundry needs to be dealt with?

Are we just looking at the centerfold and missing the lifestyle compatibility?

Edited; never mind me, while I was posting Portage Bay saw the same things and said it better.

Great points from Portage Bay. I am convinced that a PNW live abourd needs diesel heat. Since that is a PNW boat then I imagine it already has it.

Since many of us are pitching the same models we own, in the PNW, there are lots of Navigators. The 42 and 44 meet many of your criteria except for enclosed cockpit. The 15' beam is your best friend and they have an insane amount of storage. Our 2000 model came in at your price range, but you could find older ones for less money.

Navigator (Power) Boats For Sale

Benthic2 said:

Did you have a captain on the GB you chartered, or were you running that yourselves ? Was the layout similar ? Did it have thrusters? Will there be just the two of you on board ? Are both of you committed to being very active participants in the docking/departing process ? The lower helm doesn't seem to offer lines of sight or communication to the stern, and there's no pilot house door to stick your head out of. I think I would find that boat difficult to dock without thrusters and electronic communication, a lot of practice and a lot of trust in my mate's judgement. Going from a 42 foot boat for 3 days to owning a 50 footer seems like a big jump. Hopefully you were controlling that 42 like a boss and could make it dance to whatever tune you wanted.

Click to expand...

Good question. To clarify, we stayed on the GB for 3 nights.....at the dock only. The intent was not to go boating, but rather to spend 3 days and nights living on the boat (cooking, sleeping, showering, getting ready in the mornings, etc). And yes, it was in July and it was beautiful. But, we can't change the weather. We'll be doing another test run on another boat during the dead of winter.

Here's the part that I am CERTAIN some people here will take massive issue with. We have never, repeat, NEVER so much as piloted any boat anywhere near as large as what we are looking at. Our experience is limited to sailing on sub 30 ft boats. So, we will be going into this starting from what I consider virtually zero.

I plan on being as responsible as possible and taking as many courses as I can...in addition to hiring a captain for a few days, or maybe even a week, so that we can run through all the systems and get comfortable piloting and docking such a large boat. I'm also open to crewing on a boat if someone were to be gracious enough to offer.

As with anything new in life, it will be a learning curve. However I'm not afraid of learning new skills....in fact, I pride myself on it and go out of my way to continue to learn new things every year. Safety will be priority, but ultimately, I do not believe learning how to operate a 42-50' boat will be an insurmountable task. (Flame Suite ON!)

dhays; said:

Great points from Portage Bay. I am convinced that a PNW live abourd needs diesel heat. Since that is a PNW boat then I imagine it already has it.

Click to expand...

Dave, lots and lots of WA and BC boats are only heated by baseboard and/or bus because they are only used a few weeks a year and toss a portable aboard for the winter. Electric heat all winter won't be cheap and then there is the whole live aboard humidity to deal with.

Portage_Bay said:

If I read your post correctly you're looking for a boat to be primarily a full time liveaboard, secondarily a local cruiser. Sounds like you are still working full time? That puts the daily "live-ability" attributes at the top of the list.

It's hard to tell from the pics but I don't see an easy way on and off the boat carrying sacks of groceries. Not a big deal in summer, but in rain soaked winter you need to be able to get doors open, get yourself and your bags in quickly and easily.

Take a critical look at the main saloon / wheel house. Will you be happy with that built in seating? Is that where you want to spend your winter evenings when the enclosed sundeck is too cold? Pretty much late Oct through early May. The enclosed sundeck is nice but it won't be usefull most of the winter unless you enjoy being cold. Cabin fever on a PNW winter liveaboard is a real concern.

Will you be happy with the ladders (stairs)? Carrying all your stuff? In winter?

I don't see any mention of the heating system or the electrical service. If your slip and or boat is limited to 30 AMPs you're going to need more than electric heat to make it through the winter. According to Sure Marine it takes about 50,000 BTU to handle the colder days for a liveaboard. To get that out of space heaters requires more heaters than you can power. With 50 AMP service you'll get a little closer but you still won't make it.

50,000 BTU = 14,654 WATTs = 122 AMPs. Speaking from personal experience you can get by with a lot less but you won't like it.

Hydronic is the way to go, lots of heat and it heats your hot water too leaving more of the electrical service for the rest of your liveaboard needs.

Click to expand...

This is excellent feedback. Thank you for Portage Bay!

Without a doubt, any boat we consider MUST have central heat (diesel). It seems most boats in the PNW do, but if one doesn't...it will be easy to disqualify it.

Same with electrical systems. While the GB we stayed on I think was only 30 AMP, I don't think that would be acceptable as a live-aboard, especially in winter.

To be honest, these are things that I will make sure our buyers broker is aware of, and make sure that any boats we consider meet a certain "minimum criteria" of which these two items will be a part of.

Again, thanks...this is great stuff!

PNW Jeff said:

I think I've we've got the layout dialed in (sundeck, aft-cabin CPMY). I think we've got our ideal size dialed in (42-46').

Click to expand...

I think you're on the right track by identifying features you want/need, then finding boats that offer those features.

When you get closer, actually looking at real boats in person, you (both) can try to recreate your GB inspection: imagine actually doing things you'd do in real life. Making a meal, serving cocktails (somewhere on the boat), showering, sleeping overnight, hanging clothing, storing food and other supplies, fixing the AC, changing water pump impellers, docking in unfavorable wind or current, etc.

Ref that boat: one part of the listing says single diesel, another says twin DD8.2Ts. Probably the latter. I've read elsewhere DD 8.2Ts don't have a great reputation. OTOH, the single DD 8.2T we had in a previous was fine.

Note that "aft-cabin" and CPMY are sometimes two different kinds of boat.

PNW Jeff said:

Here's the part that I am CERTAIN some people here will take massive issue with. We have never, repeat, NEVER so much as piloted any boat anywhere near as large as what we are looking at.

I plan on being as responsible as possible and taking as many courses as I can...in addition to hiring a captain for a few days, or maybe even a week, so that we can run through all the systems and get comfortable piloting and docking such a large boat.

As with anything new in life, it will be a learning curve. However I'm not afraid of learning new skills....

Click to expand...

Not to worry, you're right, not insurmountable. You just have to do your part.

-Chris

One thing that would kill a boat for us to liveaboard is built in seating only. We both have had back injuries in car accidents and in order to be comfortable we use a recliner. Sitting in most built in seats for a long period is very uncomfortable and actually painful for our backs.

Question- why? What is the overall driver of this? Lifestyle? Money? Location?Adventure? Coolness factor? What is your age and family goals?

PNW Jeff said:

Here's the part that I am CERTAIN some people here will take massive issue with. We have never, repeat, NEVER so much as piloted any boat anywhere near as large as what we are looking at. Our experience is limited to sailing on sub 30 ft boats. So, we will be going into this starting from what I consider virtually zero.

Click to expand...

There are plenty that have done what you are contemplating with far less experience than you have. With your attitude, you won't have a problem.

The only caution I would give is to start using the boat as a boat right away. The more you settle into floating condo mode, the more difficult it will be to start cruising the boat. So when you eventually do buy it, start out by getting out at least for a day every weekend to get you comfortable with using the boat, but also the transitioning between home and boat mode.

dhays said:

There are plenty that have done what you are contemplating with far less experience than you have. With your attitude, you won't have a problem.

The only caution I would give is to start using the boat as a boat right away. The more you settle into floating condo mode, the more difficult it will be to start cruising the boat. So when you eventually do buy it, start out by getting out at least for a day every weekend to get you comfortable with using the boat, but also the transitioning between home and boat mode.

Click to expand...

dhays, thank you for the encouraging words, I appreciate that.

Also, what you say about using the boat as a boat from the beginning makes a ton of sense, and I will take that to heart. I keep hearing about how the majority of live-aboards never leave the dock....and I refuse to let that be us. Owning a boat on Puget Sound and not exploring the waters with it would be a damn shame.

Gmarr said:

Question- why? What is the overall driver of this? Lifestyle? Money? Location?Adventure? Coolness factor? What is your age and family goals?

Click to expand...

This is a fair question. Here are my best answers to those questions:

1) Finances: We live and work in Seattle. We own our own business and do well enough, however the idea of buying a house in the neighborhood we are currently renting is not very appealing. To buy a small, old home with a tiny yard and 1 car garage would be pushing $800,000. We simply do not see the value of buying a home like that at a price like that. BUT, at the same time, we love the neighborhood and don't want to leave for the 'burbs.

The $$ we currently pay in rent will cover our moorage and live aboard fees at a marina in that very neighborhood...plus the boat payment. Even if we pay an extra $600 - $1,000 per month to maintain the boat (on avg), we still come out at a fraction of what a home mortgage would cost. And yes, I know a boat is not an appreciating asset like a house.

2) Lifestyle: We both like the idea of downsizing the amount of "stuff" we own. Living on a boat will force this issue. We'll still have a storage unit to keep anything we don't want to get rid of.

3) Adventure: We've always thought a little differently about what we want out of life, and what we want to do. Experiences and adventure are HIGH on the list. The thought of being able to leave the marina and cruise the sound, san juans, or even just anchor out in a cove somewhere for a weekend are VERY appealing. Just for reference, our summer vacation / delayed honeymoon was last summer....and it was riding 2 up on a motorcycle from Seattle to Homer, AK and back.

4) Coolness Factor: I don't really care about coolness factor, although there is little doubt it will be easier to get our friends to come over to our place

5) Family Goals: Married. One Dog. One Cat. No kids.....ever.

6) Age: 35

Does that help?

Just do it, go find the best boat for the money and do it, living and messing around on boats is the best experience you will ever have. My wife and I have lived and cruised on many different boats over the last 30 years, and also moved back into houses at different times but find living on boats is more fun. At 70 have just recently purchased our current cruiser and seriously thinking of living on board once again. The Island Gypsy we purchased wasn't exactly what we wanted but sometimes the boat picks you and you just go along for the ride.
Regards learning to manage a larger boat, buy it and use it, take it out and enjoy the experience, that's part of the fun.
Good luck.