Well, this is unfortunate...

I would not accept just a head replacement. All the major wear items are in the block.

A borescope exam is not useful for determining wear. It would have to be very close to the cylinder wall to detect glazing or polishing and they don't bend that much unless you have a large access hole. The only sure way is to pull the engine, drop the oil pan, disassemble the rods, and measure. It is safe to assume significant wear resulted from running diluted oil.

It sounds as though they are trying to resolve it so things are going in the right direction.

This thread should somehow be book marked for the various issues, fine advice (Ski ) and how to handle a bad day.

For those smacking CNW, well, I don't know any employer that hasn't had this kind of hired help issue. Even a one man show. Looks like this one might do the right thing.

Mr. Hays, your every move has been pure class and I don't know how you did it.

Now, book a couple more weeks off, move the PFDs and wine over a few slips and you can sail to the warm waters of DS.

twistedtree said:

I would check carefully on the heritage of any replacement engine. How many hours on the existing engine? Perhaps even push for a factory reman?

And at some point it's probably worth capturing in writing that this is all in them. I have usually done that in simple email exchanges which gives an excellent written record. It's also a good way to document everything as it transpires, and is less hostile that asking for a separate written statement. As soon as anyone senses people lawyering up, things will likely come to a grinding halt.

Good luck with it all, and I think your constructive attitude will serve you well through this.

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The engine they have is a factory reman. Same engine as mine. The email trail is a good idea and they have been very good about it. They send a written estimate before every visit and the last two have clearly shown zero cost. They have been very above board and straightforward through the whole process.

Bruce B said:

I used to carry insurance for incidents such as these for my business. Only had to invoke it once in the years I carried it. We had a timing belt tensioner stud fail after a replacement timing belt. That repair was in the order of $15,000.
I'd be surprised if Cummins NW doesn't carry similar insurance.
Bruce

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That was my thought as well Bruce. Whether they are insured or not, I think they want this problem to go away with a satisfied long-term customer.

PSneed, I don't know how much he could tell. On 4 of the cylinders there was a LOT of debris on the injectors as well as the top of the cylinder. Also the tops of 4 of the pistons were badly pitted. Not being a mechanic, I don't know the significance of that, but as he looked at each his face got less and less happy and more and more serious.

78puget-trawler said:

It sounds like CNW is going to do right by you. Lets hope so.

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They certainly have been trying to do so. I have no qualms about them so far as a company.

A very unfortunate series of events, a tough experience I hope comes out right in the end, and it will if you end up with a virtually new engine.
I suggest making contemporaneous diary notes of all dealings and conversations with the repairers, just in case the attitude changes. That`s me being cautious, it is sounding positive in terms of them "making good", following the old rule: "if you mess up you fix up".

Hawgwash said:

This thread should somehow be book marked for the various issues, fine advice (Ski) and how to handle a bad day.

For those smacking CNW, well, I don't know any employer that hasn't had this kind of hired help issue. Even a one man show. Looks like this one might do the right thing.

Mr. Hays, your every move has been pure class and I don't know how you did it.

Now, book a couple more weeks off, move the PFDs and wine over a few slips and you can sail to the warm waters of DS.

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+1

Cummins NW is a large successful organization with business well beyond the marine side. The do lots of business from locations throughout the NW including Alaska. This solid portfolio of various product lines and locations is a key reason Cummins comes so highly recommended.

Have they said what yard and location they prefer?

I feel terrible that you are going through this, Dr. H, but the way they are standing behind their work makes me very confident in the Cummins product. I would seriously consider it as a future engine.

How old is your engine in years and hours?

sunchaser said:

Have they said what yard and location they prefer?

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They are going to check to see if I can get into Gig Harbor Boatyard. It is close so it makes for an easy tow and is convenient. They are super busy however. Hopefully I will find out on Monday.

FlyWright said:

I feel terrible that you are going through this, Dr. H, but the way they are standing behind their work makes me very confident in the Cummins product. I would seriously consider it as a future engine.

How old is your engine in years and hours?

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Yeah, I have no qualms about the engine or Cummins NW at this point. The engine is only 7 years old and 1000 hrs. I put 200 hrs on it my first year.

dhays said:

They are going to check to see if I can get into Gig Harbor Boatyard. It is close so it makes for an easy tow and is convenient. They are super busy however. Hopefully I will find out on Monday.

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Something tells me Cummins may have a little more influence with them than the average boater and I predict you'll get in.

I applaud any company that stands behind their work when bed situations develop. Still doesn't mean though I'd want the same mechanics next time.

The thought of them claiming it on their insurance was mentioned. I doubt that at this dollar level they do, recognizing we're talking the dollars it costs them, not retail dollars. At their size I suspect their deductible exceeds this.

That presents a concern as an employee, knowing that your mistake isn't covered but is money out of your employer's pocket and wondering how that might impact your future.

BandB said:

Something tells me Cummins may have a little more influence with them than the average boater and I predict you'll get in.

I applaud any company that stands behind their work when bed situations develop. Still doesn't mean though I'd want the same mechanics next time.

The thought of them claiming it on their insurance was mentioned. I doubt that at this dollar level they do, recognizing we're talking the dollars it costs them, not retail dollars. At their size I suspect their deductible exceeds this.

That presents a concern as an employee, knowing that your mistake isn't covered but is money out of your employer's pocket and wondering how that might impact your future.

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From the employee perspective. I think that only applies to the small Mom & Pop places. Like my previous marina.

If I fired every employee that made a mistake (every mistake costs something) I would be constantly hiring staff.
I suspect the mechanic in question will still be employed when this is all said and done.
Unless he has an ongoing issue with mistakes.

BandB said:

Something tells me Cummins may have a little more influence with them than the average boater and I predict you'll get in.

I applaud any company that stands behind their work when bed situations develop. Still doesn't mean though I'd want the same mechanics next time.

The thought of them claiming it on their insurance was mentioned. I doubt that at this dollar level they do, recognizing we're talking the dollars it costs them, not retail dollars. At their size I suspect their deductible exceeds this.

That presents a concern as an employee, knowing that your mistake isn't covered but is money out of your employer's pocket and wondering how that might impact your future.

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Interesting, when I insured our business I added a policy that would cover customers vehicles from damage of almost any kind. I believe it was an optional part of the "Garagekeepers Liability" package. The basic insurance was extremely expensive but this part was a small additional percentage so we carried it.
It may have been specific to the automotive world...but it was nice to have!
Bruce

Update

I just got a call from the Cummins NW service manager. He has scheduled my boat to be hauled for the engine replacement on July 17th and scheduled 5 days of yard time. He thought it would only take 3 days, but scheduled 5 days to be conservative. He is also scheduling the tow service to the move the boat.

I spoke to the yard and will have them do a couple of small things to the boat while it is pulled. I'll also change all the zincs while the boat is out of the water. They won't need it, but it is cheaper for me to replace them early on the hard than have a diver replace them in 3 to 6 months.

I also mentioned that I had put the oil pan heater on the engine. He asked me to let him know where I got it and he would get one ordered and put it on before the engine is dropped in.

Dave, what are the ramification of the engine swap in terms of flooring/walls, cabinetry, all that kind of thing? With many boats, an entire engine replacement is not contemplated.

Sounds like they are doing right by you Dave. Lets hope it isn't too big of a deal to get it out and in as JustBob says.

JustBob said:

Dave, what are the ramification of the engine swap in terms of flooring/walls, cabinetry, all that kind of thing? With many boats, an entire engine replacement is not contemplated.

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I really don't know. I asked the mechanic about it and he said that it wouldn't be an issue. I have emailed the North Pacific Yachts owner and he said he would give me a call back as soon as he had cell service.

The saloon has a series of hatches down the center right over the engine. There may be one cabinet that has to be moved, but I hope not.

There is certainly a chance of incidental damage when they pull the engine or put in the new one. I am really hoping there isn't.

JustBob said:

Dave, what are the ramification of the engine swap in terms of flooring/walls, cabinetry, all that kind of thing? With many boats, an entire engine replacement is not contemplated.

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That brings back memories. To pull my Cummins required disassembling part of the gallery, removing the saloon floor, pulling the generator, and then partially disassembling the motor to get it through the door. Know I couldn't have done a straight swap and reassembled everything in 5 days.

Ted

Hi Dave

I am so very very happy to hear your continuing success for complete motor replacement! Keep On, Keeping On!


Cheers!

Art

O C Diver said:

That brings back memories. To pull my Cummins required disassembling part of the gallery, removing the saloon floor, pulling the generator, and then partially disassembling the motor to get it through the door. Know I couldn't have done a straight swap and reassembled everything in 5 days.



Ted

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That would be a project Ted. As near as I can tell, the mechanics will strip the engine of the peripherals in place. Then it appears that the engine can be lifted up and then out the rear door. I'm not sure how they are going to do that. It is a long reach from the back of the swim step into the saloon.

dhays said:

...There is certainly a chance of incidental damage when they pull the engine or put in the new one. I am really hoping there isn't.

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Dave: These guys should be pros and vessel protection should be part of the engine swap. When we pulled the engine on Hobo, we used miles of cardboard, sheets of plywood plus a few rolls of plastic and probably 10 rolls of blue tape. The floors had 2 layers of cardboard and came out unscathed. It took Lena and I 2 days just for the vessel protect. I would assume CNW will doing similar. Good luck. I sounds like it's coming together pretty seamlessly.

"That brings back memories. To pull my Cummins required disassembling part of the gallery, removing the saloon floor, pulling the generator, and then partially disassembling the motor to get it through the door."

Did later you visit the boats designer to tar and feather him?

If not , why not?

An engine change is part of a boats design service.

dhays said:

I really don't know. I asked the mechanic about it and he said that it wouldn't be an issue. I have emailed the North Pacific Yachts owner and he said he would give me a call back as soon as he had cell service.

The saloon has a series of hatches down the center right over the engine. There may be one cabinet that has to be moved, but I hope not.

There is certainly a chance of incidental damage when they pull the engine or put in the new one. I am really hoping there isn't.

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Dave, I realise they are trying to do the right thing by you, because of their mistake, but I can't shake the feeling it is all overkill. Surely a decent diesel mechanic can check out and diagnose whether something has damaged the engine or not..? After all, you switched off immediately the low oil pressure buzzer went off, and it would have taken some time for the oil dilution from diesel to thin the oil very much. Ok, you'll get a newly reconditioned engine, but at what cost in terms of potential collateral damage, and boating down time.

Could you and your lawyer not just negotiate a letter confirming that if engine issues developed within a certain agreed prescribed time, they would replace. Otherwise, it might be all a storm in a teacup, and with fuel system fixed, you might be good to go..?

FF said:

"That brings back memories. To pull my Cummins required disassembling part of the gallery, removing the saloon floor, pulling the generator, and then partially disassembling the motor to get it through the door."

Did later you visit the boats designer to tar and feather him?

If not , why not?

An engine change is part of a boats design service.

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No, but it was all disassembly and reassembly. Didn't have to cut any holes in the hull or the saloon roof. I considered it reasonable but time consuming. I'm guessing it would have taken me 50 hours to swap the motor. An experienced yard might be able to do it in 25 hours. At $100 dollars an hour that might be 15 to 20% of the cost to replace the motor.

The boat is recreational not commercial. With average use and a good preventative maintenance schedule, it's realistic for that engine to be in the boat for 25 years. Now on my charter boat I can remove and replace in less than 8 hours. Different application and likely to be pulled after less than 10 years based on hours.

Ted

dhays said:

That would be a project Ted. As near as I can tell, the mechanics will strip the engine of the peripherals in place. Then it appears that the engine can be lifted up and then out the rear door. I'm not sure how they are going to do that. It is a long reach from the back of the swim step into the saloon.

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Boom truck, maybe. I've seen them do that here several times, usually with the boat in the water. They put the boat stern-to in one of the bulkhead slips up by the work yard, back the boom truck up to it, extend the boom into the saloon or wherever, E Voila!

-Chris

Dave:

Once again I have been away from good wifi for a while, just catching up.
I have actually been there, done that, re your imminent engine replacement.

First, unless your new engine comes with a sump that has no drain, get them to put a drain hose on the bottom so you can attach a vacuum pump to it at oil change time. When I swapped engines in 2000, I did so, and have thanked the guy who suggested doing so at every oil change.

Second, physically getting the engine out of your boat should be a piece of cake for the guy with a HIAB on his truck, especially if access is through your cockpit doors. Mine was through the side door, at 27" wide, and over the rail, so limiting both width and height. Taking the HEs and alternators off gave me 1/8" total side clearance, just enough so I could put a piece of cardboard alongside and protect the varnish. The swing of the boom was limited on the Port side, so the engine/transmission was too long to swing it up through the hole in the floor as a single unit, so taking the trans off down in the ER was necessary on that one, though not of the Stb engine. In your case the boom extension will allow swinging up out of the hole, as a single unit, saving time.

Third, I couldn't get the yard time when I needed it, so rather than wait 6 weeks for the yard time, I did the two engine swaps myself. Not being a mechanic, I likely took twice as long as your guys will take, but I was running again within 2 days of motoring up to the travel lift. That is 2 engines, I had my 17 yr old son help me for part of a day, and a curious bystander from an adjacent boat on the lot helped with the heavy work of sliding the Stb trans onto the back of the engine, down in the hole. So your 3 day estimate should turn out to be overly generous.

Yes, make sure your plan B to holiday on your sailboat is in place, but know that your NP 43 has every chance of being ready in time.

Good luck and again, good on you for your unruffled attitude. That is over half the battle.

Peter B said:

Dave, I realise they are trying to do the right thing by you, because of their mistake, but I can't shake the feeling it is all overkill. Surely a decent diesel mechanic can check out and diagnose whether something has damaged the engine or not..? After all, you switched off immediately the low oil pressure buzzer went off, and it would have taken some time for the oil dilution from diesel to thin the oil very much. Ok, you'll get a newly reconditioned engine, but at what cost in terms of potential collateral damage, and boating down time.

Could you and your lawyer not just negotiate a letter confirming that if engine issues developed within a certain agreed prescribed time, they would replace. Otherwise, it might be all a storm in a teacup, and with fuel system fixed, you might be good to go..?

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I don't think there should be collateral damage if they do it professionally other than down time and he's been promised that will be limited. As to replacement now vs a guarantee of future service, I'd take replacement now every time. When it breaks down in the future it might not be where they're located and he might have issues getting service. Plus worrying about future issues and then the inconvenience if there are any. You're right that it might be overkill but I'd want it done correctly and completely now with no chances. I believe if the likelihood of other damage was very slim, nearly non-existent, they wouldn't be doing all this. I think their judgement is that there is great risk that other damage has occurred. I wouldn't want to go back out with another partial fix or a fix and promise that if this didn't get it all, we'll fix again.

Dave. Getting it out will be a tight squeeze. Engine is 36h x 35w. Height not a problem, but most bolt ons on the side will need to come off, after cooler and plumbing, exchanger also. Cabin door is 27", cockpit door 21". The flooring looks wide enough, but motor will have to move aft a bit, before it can come up. Probably need a spreader bar on the hoist points, to give a little more room height wise to clear. Transom door width the tightest squeeze. Every day job for the pros. Dan

I had the boat towed over to the yard and hauled out. Cummins will start to work on it tomorrow morning at 8:00am. Cummins says they have the removal covered. I hope so. Unfortunately, I have to work so can't be there to watch.

dhays said:

I had the boat towed over to the yard and hauled out. Cummins will start to work on it tomorrow morning at 8:00am. Cummins says they have the removal covered. I hope so. Unfortunately, I have to work so can't be there to watch.

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Part of me would be relieved that I couldn't be there to watch.

Good luck! I'm sure in the end all will be good.