having trouble with back and fill

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Seevee

Seevee

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Sep 1, 2016
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usa
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430 Mainship
All,

Need some help with back and fill, with a bit of wind. No wind is a non issue, but even 5 knots becomes very difficult.

I have a channel that I need to turn around in that gives me about 50 ft wide to turn my 40 ft trawler. I can back reasonable far before turning. But when I start the back and fill maneuver, the wind takes over, no matter what I do. The wind is usually pushing me back toward the dock I left. I'll go forward, goose it good and go back in reverse and all the progress I've made is lost with the wind. So I'm essentially not turning.

Now, I do have a bow and stern thruster which I'm finding out is absolutely necessary to make the turn, but would like to accomplish without it in case of a failure. (they will fail).

I've tried heavy on the throttle and light. Nothing seems to work and to get turning authority I need more forward thrust the puts me aground into shallow water.

Yes, I'm going to modify the rudder to help.


Thoughts?
 
Do you know which way your prop turns?
 
Set your rudder to its maximum in the direction that allows you to continue the turn in forward in the direction your prop walk has begun while in reverse.
Remember that at low speeds, the rudder will not help you while in reverse, so don't move it away from its hard over position that is intuitively wrong for backing. If you had enough reverse speed, then the rudder would take over and counteract the prop walk, but for this maneuver, all it will do if you move it is wast time, and allow you to get closer to that shoal you want to avoid.
If your prop walk normally pulls your stern towards the dock on your Starboard side, you want to set your rudder hard over to Port, then your back (Stern to Starboard) and fill (bow to Port) will get you turned in a boat length, without resorting to thrusters.
Don't be afraid to goose it.
 
Spring line is the next step and what a working water-man without a thruster would do to combat adverse wind.
 
eyschulman,
<<<Spring line is the next step and what a working water-man without a thruster would do to combat adverse wind.>>>

What is a water-man?

I've thought about a spring line. Tied to departure dock (A) at stern starboard point, then when half way around, switch it to stern port side? What do you think.

====
Goal is to get from boat A to boat C. However I have trouble getting to boat B because the wind will blow the bow back. And to make the turn I need more forward authority to turn which puts me into shallow water.

Prop walk is to port but I can't turn to starboard because the prop will hit bottom when opposite the docks. (If B were turned around, the prop and rudder would be hitting bottom.)

It's a tough maneuver with wind, and appreciate the tips.





img_568068_0_fcad6c209bf1b94b97421711269ad124.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]
 
What is behind you in figure B?

Is it open water of a fairway?
 
Seevee said:
What is a water-man?

I've thought about a spring line. Tied to departure dock (A) at stern starboard point, then when half way around, switch it to stern port side? What do you think.
====
Goal is to get from boat A to boat C.
Click to expand...

FWIW, here on the Chesapeake, a waterman would likely be a crabber or oysterman. But the recreational charter fishing skippers count, too. I always figured that I'd need a bow thruster about the same day one of the watermen here needed one. But then I saw one using a bow thruster, once! :)

Rare, but not unheard of. So now I feel it'd be OK for us to have one too! :)

Can't tell from your diagram what's where. Is A your home slip? And you're docked bow-to? If so, what about backing into A (as you return) so you're docked stern-to instead?

Another FWIW, and you may not have room for it, but we found could turn 360° starting to starboard in a much shorter distance than we could turn 360° starting to port. IOW, sometimes it was easier to spin the whole way round, starting opposite of where we were really heading. For example, for docking stern-to in a slip on the starboard side of the fairway, sometimes it was easier to do a 270° starting to starboard -- and then backing in -- than it would have been to do a 90° starting to port and then reversing into the slip.

-Chris
 
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What's past your dock in position A? Can you release all but the bow line and let the stern swing out and around?

Ted
 
O C Diver said:
What's past your dock in position A? Can you release all but the bow line and let the stern swing out and around?

Ted
Click to expand...

Thought the same Ted, just use a short stern spring ....or long, wouldnt matter.....but....

If it left him close to what is next to him, the wind would pin him there, otherwise he should be able to turn to port out of position B I would think.
 
A few years ago we chartered a Nordic Tug. I asked the check out guy how to best move the vessel around the docks. Just as others have said on this thread, rudder hard over, prop walk, artfully using the throttle and back and fill.

Boy did that instructor teach me a thing or two. I wasn't aware that an NT was that responsive. A friend with a KK 42 and no stern thruster, same deal. Seevee, suggest you find that "guy." Your re-done rudder may or may not help. As Ed says, a waterman.

Good luck, you'll figure it out.
 
psneeld said:
What is behind you in figure B?

Is it open water of a fairway?
Click to expand...

Psneeld,

Shallow water with rocks, between docks. That area I really avoid. The other side where figure B is pointing it mud. Wont damage things if the bow hits it, but amazing how easy it is to get stuck and not be able to back off.
 
Can you just back straight out without the turn until clear?
 
[STRIKE][/STRIKE]The trouble with some singles broadside to the wind, they will only back and fill a 360 turn in one direction.

Sounds like yours may have that trouble, but hard to tell from my chair...:D

I know it may seem a little crazy, but on your diagram, maybe back over towards the docks a bit, and then try back and filling turning the other direction.

That way you are putting the bow towards dock and rocks, and the prop towards mud, safer in my book.

Sure the stern is going towards shallow water, but you may get a much quicker turn to port in this situation, an prop walk works better closer to the bottom.

Try it on a windless day for comfort, and work up in wind velocity. Your thrusters should help if things get dicey, I magine us unfortunates that get down there with a grouchy, only turn one way boat.... :facepalm:
 
If you back the boat in position A, till the bow is at the end of the dock where the stern started, put a line from that corner of the dock to the bow, and then let the stern fall off to port, you should be able to swing close to 180 degrees.

Ted
 
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You have a thruster, don't worry too much about it not working. Without it, doing a back and fill 180 turn in a narrow channel with adverse wind is a challenge. And with enough wind, impossible. You could back it out and do the turn when in wider water, using snorts of forward to control stern. Or shove bow into the mud and let wind carry stern around.

But all this is academic. You have a functioning thruster so you are good.

I have a single with thruster in a narrow channel. I have to back out about 300yds before it is wide enough to spin around. I have done it many times before I installed the thruster, but with wind it could get interesting fast.

There are some maneuvers with a single that you should not attempt without a thruster.
 
ranger42c said:
FWIW, here on the Chesapeake, a waterman would likely be a crabber or oysterman. But the recreational charter fishing skippers count, too. I always figured that I'd need a bow thruster about the same day one of the watermen here needed one. But then I saw one using a bow thruster, once! :)

Rare, but not unheard of. So now I feel it'd be OK for us to have one too! :)

Can't tell from your diagram what's where. Is A your home slip? And you're docked bow-to? If so, what about backing into A (as you return) so you're docked stern-to instead?

Another FWIW, and you may not have room for it, but we found could turn 360° starting to starboard in a much shorter distance than we could turn 360° starting to port. IOW, sometimes it was easier to spin the whole way round, starting opposite of where we were really heading. For example, for docking stern-to in a slip on the starboard side of the fairway, sometimes it was easier to do a 270° starting to starboard -- and then backing in -- than it would have been to do a 90° starting to port and then reversing into the slip.

-Chris
Click to expand...

Chris and all,

Attached is more detail.

From the comments, I might try turning to starboard, perhaps the prop will clear some of the shallow muck away, enough to not get stuck.

Also, thinking more of using a spring line some how.

img_568121_0_bbc2fc3b178441e2a254f6fb449ae7e8.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]
 
If this is somewhat to scale....
I would put the rudder hard to a starboard turn, then back off the dock.
When the bow is clear forward gear to put the bow toward the rocks, and continue to back and fill turning to starboard in forward, backing to port in reverse.
In other words the opposite of what you are doing.
at least that is what I would try.
This way you are using the back to port to your advantage not to your disadvantage.
If you have to spring out a little before backing so be it.
 
Still need to know whether it is a RH or LH prop. RH backs to port, LH backs to stbd.
 
Spring best from mid ship cleat when going out and even better with crew to adjust length as boat turns. Sometimes going in best from end of boat approaching slip to turn bow or stern into opening. No need to change position of spring will get you 90 degrees if needed and can work going in or out. Also wise to pad poll or dock end well maybe a big roller if a dock end. Spring lines work with right or left handed props no discrimination there. Spring lines will work against heavy wind and can harness considerable power from your engine. Make sure your cleats are good if you turn the power up.
 
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Seevee said:
From the comments, I might try turning to starboard, perhaps the prop will clear some of the shallow muck away, enough to not get stuck.

Also, thinking more of using a spring line some how.
Click to expand...


Got it.

OK, in that case, and assuming RH prop, pro-walk to port...

Think I'd consider turning to starboard toward the 3rd rock from the sun (rock closest to mangroves) as you return from open water, then backing into the slip and docking stern-to.

Assumes water depth cooperate; can't tell without "eyeballs on."

Spring lines are almost always a good thing. :)

And if necessary, there's maybe a way to pivot yourself backwards into the slip without getting too close to the shallow/marsh area. Assumes pile or cleat at the outer end of your slip, something you can lay up against (pile?), with a line running from that pile or cleat to an aft cleat on the boat.

Maybe.

-Chris
 
High Wire said:
Can you just back straight out without the turn until clear?
Click to expand...

Perhaps that would be best in a high wind situation, but it a hike about 1400 feet, and at the end there would be a turn to the starboard side because a shallow water.

In the middle of that run there's a few stretches where the good depth is about 20 feet wide, so I'd have to be really good and I'm not sure I'm at that level.

I should try it at high tide sometime, thx.
 
Thx again for all the good ideas.

Would like to get comments on the spring line operation below. I know I can get it out easy to about the 90 degree point (position 3), but with wind, what action would you take to work the bow into the wind?

Also, I'm a bit worried about the boat getting pushed back to the dock, so I'd have to pad things well. I do have fender strips on the dock, but might want more. And, there's another boat in the slip on a lift between the docks that I don't want to hit, but can position it so its stern doesn't stick out past the dock.

img_568154_0_6937335d64ccff18612daf7148f81e5a.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]
 
Don't think you have gained any advantage with the spring in position 3 as it won't help you push the bow around against the wind.

Ted
 
O C Diver said:
Don't think you have gained any advantage with the spring in position 3 as it won't help you push the bow around against the wind.

Ted
Click to expand...

OC,

That's exactly what I was thinking. Do you have a thought on how to work the bow thru the wind with spring lines?
 
Have you thought about docking port side to the dock. On return, when necessary, use a spring line to help you pivot around on to the dock.

Ted
 
Seevee said:
OC,

That's exactly what I was thinking. Do you have a thought on how to work the bow thru the wind with spring lines?
Click to expand...

See post #14.

If you run the spring line from the port bow hause pipe, under the bow sprit, then back the boat till the bow is at the end of the dock and then spring from the corner of the dock. With the boat idling in reverse, the stern should fall down wind with the bow held off the dock.

Ted
 
menzies said:
Do you know which way your prop turns?
Click to expand...

:thumb:

Bingo.
Dauntless will turn easily to port in about 50', but with wind or current, turning to stbd is a whole different story.
 
psneeld; said:
...but hard to tell from my chair...
Click to expand...
:thumb::thumb:This is the best comment of all and everyone is right.

Wouldn’t it be fun to get this crowd, out on the dock?

Is there a clear, current satellite view?
No, really, I'm serious.

I’m surprised Sunchaser was the only one to suggest getting a pro involved.

Seevee, if you can find a nearby captain, who could be available on short notice when the wind kicks up, you will be as good as he, in 2 hours or less.

Otherwise I keep coming back to Ted and eyschulman…spring line(s) will be the ultimate answer but…
psneeld; said:
...hard to tell from my chair...
Click to expand...
--------------------------
Ski:
Post 5; “Prop walk is to port” = RH prop.
 
O C Diver said:
See post #14.

If you run the spring line from the port bow hause pipe, under the bow sprit, then back the boat till the bow is at the end of the dock and then spring from the corner of the dock. With the boat idling in reverse, the stern should fall down wind with the bow held off the dock.

Ted
Click to expand...

Ted,

Thx, but the boat won't turn there at the end of the dock. At the end, right were the stern site, I've got 5 feet of water. If I go away from the dock at that point 30 feet the depth is zero. I need to get away from the dock to turn the boat, and thought, perhaps, there was a way to swing it with spring lines.

Backing into the slip "may" work but I'd have to let the bow hang out perhaps 15 to 20 feet because of shallow water where the prop would be. And getting in bow first is dirt simple, even in fairly low tides and high winds. So turning will be an issue weather its departing or arriving.

And, yes, I have a training session scheduled in about 2 week, and the lesson is maneuvering in close quarters and docking. Will spend all day on that.

There may not be an answer at low tides or strong winds.
 
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