A little help for a boat purchase please….

nomadwilly wrote:

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3. As to quality I'm sure the wood GBs were a very good boat built of the best materials but I don't see the plastic GBs as significantly superior in any way except probably design from a aesthetic point of view.

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******* Much research into both boats leads me to agree with Eric. The GB

* * * * name is better known, but as to quality, many in the know would

******* disagree.

******* I've clipped some inserts from an artcle in "Power Boat Reports" in

******* their June 1995 issue. I didn't include the whole article as it was very

******* lengthy

*

*


-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Tuesday 2nd of August 2011 04:58:55 PM

SeaHorse II wrote:
* Much research into both boats leads me to agree with Eric. The GB name is better known, but as to quality, many in the know would disagree.

***

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*Well, it all depends on what you read. I've read dozens of articles over the years all sorts of magazines that say exactly the opposite.* That GB is absolute*tops in quality, value, blah, blah, blah.* I don't particularly agree with this, by the way.*

But what GB (American Marine, actually) DID do is bring consistency to this kind of boat at a time when there wasn't much of it.* The Taiwan-built boats tended to vary all over the map in terms of quality as did a lot of other makes and, of course, the custom-builds.* With their Grand Banks line, first in wood and later in fiberglass, what American Marine did was bring a high*level of consistent quality from boat to boat.

Are there better designed, better built production boats?* Sure, although from what I've seen and been told by Island Gypsy*owners on our an adjacent docks I'm not sure IG is necessarily*one of them.* But if there's anything that Grand Banks brought to the boat manufacturing table starting in the mid-1960s, it was consistency.* You could depend on a GB being what the manufacturer said it was all across the line.

Magazine reviews don't mean much as, first of all, they can't piss off their advertisers so will find SOMETHING good about any product no matter how crappy it might be.* Second, magazine writers are as biased as everyone else.* So one guy might think an IG or CHB is as good or better a buy as a GB and the next guy might think the opposite.

More telling, I think, are the prices the boats command over time which reflect the value the buyers, owners, dealers, brokers, and sellers put on them.*

None of this is to say I think an IG is a lesser boat than a GB.* But I don't think it's any better.* Actually I would say they are very much the same, in no small part because the "Kong" in Kong & Halverson was an engineer for American Marine and was*heavily involved in the Grand Banks line*before he eventually left to team up with Halverson and create the Island Gypsy line.

PS-- I should proabably add that I say all this not from a position of being a particular Grand Banks fan.* We have one and it serves us well but it is by no means our defintion of an ideal boat.**Aestheticallyi I*think the lines are awkward and top-heavy and*the sheer line has a major design*flaw in it.* The windows are too big, the flying bridge is a waste of space and weight, and the proportions of the main cabin to the trunk and forward cabin are all wrong.* It's not an ugly boat but it's definitely not a pretty one either.

As I've stated somewhere else, to both my wife and I the ideal design for a recreational cruising boat is a pilothouse design.* In terms of absolute top-notch quality and aesthetics there is only one boat I am actually familiar with that fills the bill, and that is the Fleming.* The de Fever 46 also fills our bill from an asthetics standpoint, which stands to reason as the American Marine Alaskan Series was based on a deFever design, which is also why the Fleming looks like the deFever looks like an Alaskan (Tony Fleming ran the American Marine yard for awhile before leaving to start his own company).* But I don't know anything personally about the build quality, etc. of the deFever 46*other than there is one on the next dock over from us that is an absolute beauty.

Another very good looking boat but one I know virtually nothing about is the Krogen Express.

Compared to these boats a GB and an IG and in fact*all the similar looking "trawlers" are tubs **Strictly in*my opinion of course......


-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 2nd of August 2011 05:46:04 PM

Marin,

I need to say (respectfully) that I think you missed my point.

" I'll get more of my money "back" than if I'd have done the same thing with a CHB."

All products eventually become valueless. A high end product costs more and has has further to fall (value wise) so it has more value to loose so on average it looses more value every time it's sold even though it's sold for a higher price. The guy that buys the high end product pays more and he sells for more but he looses more.

nomadwilly wrote:
*A high end product costs more and has has further to fall (value wise) so it has more value to loose so on average it looses more value every time it's sold even though it's sold for a higher price.

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*Eric--- Okay, I'll go along with that, at least to a degree.* I think it's tough to make blanket statement to that effect that applies to everything all the time, but I understand your logic.

If boats were all created equal, it would make sense that the boat that lost the least in value between*buying and selling*might be the smartest buy. But since all boats aren't created equal, how do you calibrate the value of buying a higher-end boat?* Does having a better boat offset the potentially higher drop in dollar value between when you buy it and when you sell it?* What is the value to the owner of having and using*a higher-end boat with its better build quality, fewer problems, etc. during the time he owns it?* Is "value" always related to dollars, or is there an intangible defintion of "value" that cannot be calculated in dollars?

This is one of those largely theoretical discussions that may not be worth taking any farther, but I think there is more to the "higher-end" aspect of any product--- boat, car, house, revolver, lawn mower--- that affects the "value" issue than just the dollars involved.

Or not.......

I have an arsenal of info at my disposal relating to GBs & IGs. I have decided, however, to live to fight another day. There is no winning here.



-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Tuesday 2nd of August 2011 08:10:54 PM

SeaHorse II wrote:

I have an arsenal of info at my disposal relating to GBs & IGs. I have decided, however, to live to fight another day. There is no winning here.

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*So does the local GB dealer.* So do the folks on the two GB owners forums (including, interestingly enough Kong's son, who grew up in both*yards and*has a GB ).* And you're right, there's no winning here.* Or, in my case, caring

As we all know automobiles loose a big chunk of their value when they roll of the showroom floor. And there are many other non-lineair aspects of depreciation curves that dictate that much greater loses are borne by owners at various stages in the life of a product. Where do you all think a typical trawler would suffer it's greatest losses of value excluding the very end and beginning of the lifespan of the trawler? All of my previous ideas on this thread were based on linear depreciation. Consider the 1st, 2nd and third quarter of the trawlers life. What say guys.

No comment...it's futile.

(I'm not referring to your comment, Eric.)


-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Tuesday 2nd of August 2011 10:11:23 PM

nomadwilly wrote:
All of my previous ideas on this thread were based on linear depreciation.

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*How can it be linear when the economy isn't?* Value loss is governed as much by the market, which is governed by the economy, as it is some sort of mathmatical depreciation formula.* When the economy is good, people have more discretionary income and are more inclined to pay higher asking prices for used boats.* When the economy is in the tank (as it has been for a few years now) that discretionary income isn't there and even people who are in the market for a boat can't afford the higher prices, so the prices come down.

The most dramatic case in point I've witnessed to date is the couple I met last year who had just purchased a brand new GB47.* This is a boat that normally sells new for over a million dollars.* The GB dealership in Seattle had gone bust and the GB47 and a brand new GB41 (the pod drive boat) were still in their inventory.* The bank that foreclosed had no interest in being a boat dealer and were themselves in financial trouble.* The boats had to go and had to go fast. So they advertised them for exactly half price.* I don't know what happened to the GB41 but this couple (from England), who obviously had the money to spend and in fact had earlier that year bought a late model GB46, snapped up the GB47 as well.* $500k for a $1 million dollar boat.* Not a bad deal.

So I think you have to account for what the market is doing to the economy in your calculations of boat value drop and that is not linear.

Now if you're talking about depreciation in the sense of depreciating something for business tax purposes, that's another deal and is (I believe) formula based. But I don't think you're talking about that, Eric.* I think you're talking about the drop in value that is reflected in the buying and selling price of a boat over time.* Yes, no, maybe?


-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 2nd of August 2011 11:51:41 PM

Marin wrote:

"How can it be linear when the economy isn't?"

Simple. Use only the DIFFERENCES in values between high and low end products. When the economy's in the tank the high and low end products depreciate about the same percentage.

I'm going to guess boats depreciate heavily in the first few years, not so much in mid life and more sharply in later life. Assuming that's true the best time to buy and sell a boat (from a standpoint of depreciation loss) is during mid life. And at the later end of that range the lesser values to be considered should produce minimum losses per year. Surely someone must have an opinion. And of course I'm not talking about extreme cases that are not relevant to this question such as the one Marin cited but it was interesting and I always feel like "why can't I fall into stuff like that".

nomadwilly wrote:
Marin wrote:

"How can it be linear when the economy isn't?"

Simple. Use only the DIFFERENCES in values between high and low end products. When the economy's in the tank the high and low end products depreciate about the same percentage.

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I'm enough at sea when it comes to economy issues to not be able to*make a case any different than what you've stated so I'll say*your comment seems to make sense to me and leave it at that.

As to when*is the most advantageous time to buy a boat, that's a*tough one.* The*closer to it being new the better condition*it will be in.* On the other hand the closer it is to being really old, the cheaper it will be.* So I guess it would have to depend on*one's financial position.* If your objective is to buy a fairly new boat with minimal problems (in theory), I would guess that buying a boat just a few years old would get you near the "new" stage but well*past*the initial big value drop stage.

If you have a limited budget but still want a fairly high-end boat then I guess the trick is to find one that is several decades old but is still in good shape.* Boats generally can't be sold for much more than the "going" price for that make, model, and age.* So even if someone has poured $80k into an early 70s fiberglass GB, for example, the boat won't sell for much more (or any more) than the "average" early 70s fiberglass GB.**You certainly won't pay the*average price for this model and year PLUS the*$80,000 the previous owner put into it..*

So the best timing is probably toward the end of Eric's third quarter but find a boat that has been well kept up or had improvements that carry its condition quite aways above comparable boats.* You'll be getting more for your money that way.

A broker once told me the best boat to buy is one that has been bought and sold several times and owned by people that sink money into it each time. One owner likes glitter and gives the boat a Awlgrip paint job, new cleats, canvas and SS ports. The next guy is a gear head who repowers w new upper end engines, Aqua Drives and power steering. The next guy's wife spends money well and gets new upholstery, floors/carpet, hydroconic heating system ect ect ect....... To find a long time owner selling is usually to find a boat neglected and w very few features well above the spartan stock boat. And these "loaded" boats aren't rare as we all tend to dump a bunch of money into a new boat purchase*** ....I did.

Value loss is governed as much by the market, which is governed by the economy, as it is some sort of mathmatical depreciation formula.

Boats are WEALTH .

The ruler the value of wealth is measured with may change , but the value remains.

There are a few sail boats that are 2x their new l sales price.

EG the Westsail was a $29,000 boat brand new , many are asking $50-K to $60K today.

The boat has depreciated , but the ruler (in this case the US dollar) has depreciated even more.

A desperate seller can be a great find, on a boat of value.

My next door bought a 60+ Nordy for $600K , which was to him a great find, as the Nordy BS site shows them for 1.2M and up.

The GBs and the IGs are simular and both good boats.

A lot of the details and hardware, at least in the early models are almost the same.

Right down to the manual propane*shutoff in the galley headliner.* I bet Marin's GB has a simular shutoff.

JohnP

Thanks John,

I just installed my propane tank on the cabin top and need to go out in the rain ect and shut it off. Never seen such a valve as you seem to have. I thought they were all electric solenoid operated. Where do you get your replacement valves?

a friend of mine has a very well kept and upgraded Island Gipsy for sale in Long Beach, CA which I am sure is the wrong coast.
the upgrade he has done to this trawler is unimaginable (well over 100K in upgrades alone), yet the selling price is only around 80K.
anyone who buys this boat gets a very very well maintained and equipped IG.

now if i had 250K which i had to spend on a boat I would be looking at the GB Eastbay, every time i walk by one of these in the marina i just love it..
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/200...Express-2372680/Dataw-Island/SC/United-States.

JohnP wrote:
Right down to the manual propane*shutoff in the galley headliner.* I bet Marin's GB has a simular shutoff.

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*Yes, it does. It's a great feature in our opinion.* I have never trusted the electric solenoid shutoff valves so many boats have now.* Just what I want in the propane locker--- something electric.* The overhead manual valve is great and GB (and perhaps IG, too) was smart enough to offset it so if there is some sort of flare-up on the stove you don't have to reach over the flames to get to the valve.

We leave the overhead manual valve shut off all the time except when we are actually going to use the stove or oven.* And when we are done, the valve is closed again.* It's become second nature to us now.* And whenever we leave the boat--- in its home slip or going ashore for an extended period, we shut off the propane tank that is feeding the system as well.

The other weekend wne we were in Friday Harbor*we experienced a failure of the then-13-year old regulator in the propane locker when its edge seal began to leak.* My wife heard a 'funny sound" from somewhere and we finally traced it* to the propane locker and found the problem.* This is a situation the manual valve in the galley overhead would not have helped-- the ony cure was to turn off the tank valve.* So we're glad we long ago*made that step an item on our "before leaving the boat" checklist.

nomadwilly wrote:
Thanks John,

*Where do you get your replacement valves?

Eric, Thats a good question, hope it never wears out. (knock on wood).

JohnP

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********* P.S.* Also have the electric valve at the regulator, and a propane sniffer under the stove.** This was at the request of a surveyor and the insurance company backed him up.* At least they did not make me change the manual valve it is nicely fitted in the overhead with the valve body under the flybridge, must have a long stem.

*


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-- Edited by JohnP on Thursday 4th of August 2011 04:09:22 PM

We leave the overhead manual valve shut off all the time except when we are actually going to use the stove or oven. And when we are done, the valve is closed again.

In England these seem to be a "gland" (stuffing box) for the shaft of the interior control wheel , and a small 90deg angle drive , the output engages a std tank valve.

The Brits LOVE "calor gas" and use it for cooking , heat ,Hot water , interior lights .

FF wrote:
The Brits LOVE "calor gas" and use it for cooking , heat ,Hot water , interior lights .

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*"Calor" gas is simply regular propane.* One of the largest distributors of propane in the UK is Calor.* So in the same way that "Hoover" long ago became the common noun for vacuum cleaner in the UK, "Calor gas" has become the common noun for propane.

I have never seen it used for lights anywhere, inside or outside, in all our many trips to the UK.* Today most household appliances in the UK are electric.* An exception is the famous*Aga, a combination oven, stove and (sometimes) hot water heater, which uses coal or wood and is staggeringly expensive to buy but does a terrific job of everything that it does.


-- Edited by Marin on Friday 5th of August 2011 02:17:54 PM

I have never seen it used for lights anywhere, inside or outside, in all our many trips to the UK.

I'm refering to inside BOATS .Not dirt houses.