8 Knots - Are you kidding?

Re; speed different folks different strokes. On some days I think I am a different folk from the day before so I need a boat that can go slow medium and a bit faster and do all modestly well. The SD with matched power is the answer for me. I accept the slight inefficiency at the upper and lower end of the scale in order to get the option of speed from 5-20 K.

Dani-lu said:

Knowing I mst have a standup ER, probably eliminates certain brands, models and or sizes of a model. What I mean is, there could be a small Ocean Alexanders without a standup ER, which means I may have to get a 48 Alexander to get the ER I want. This is just an example, I have not researched this brand yet.

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FWIW, sometimes a decent engine room can sneak up on you a bit... without seeming be a stand-up at first.

We have a day hatch into ours from the cockpit, so it's easy enough to go down in "crouch-up" mode to make normal daily checks and to do most routine maintenance. But we also have lift-able hatches in the saloon, so we can expose each engine from the top and better reach some of the stuff on the outboard side of each.

IOW, not stand-up, wouldn't be advertised as stand-up... but access gets fairly reasonable for most things... and I think there might be many more boats like that than there are with true stand-up ERs.

Ours is not perfect, but it's decent, and about correct for the size boat we have.

-Chris

What about a Hatteras or similar motoryacht? You can cruise all day at 8kt/10gph and still get up on plane at 20kts when you need to...... 700gals+ fuel capacity will give enough range at hull speed for the Bahamas and points south. There are some nice boats on YW.com if your budget for a retirement boat goes up to $300k. Do a search for yachtfishers.......

IMO - Unless the boat is big enough and laid out correctly enough to actually have a "confined" engine room with stand up entry door and ample stand up working-room all around inside the compartment... then the "engine room" simply isn't big enough.

For boats that are not too big, and in alteration to having an actual stand up engine room, I have found that very large hatches in salon sole or in cockpit can be completely useful for "standing" erect while also having amble space to get fairly easy around all areas needing maintenance or repair efforts.

What I can not stand [pun intended - lol], and a reason I have not purchased some boats, is when there is a little 1/3 tall door somewhere under a short set of steps you must lift to get into an engine compartment that is actually in all respects head knocking crawl space with no elbow room to perform necessary actions.

Dani-lu said:

I too own a sport car and agree, it does not get used for what it was built for, but when I do hit the gas pedal or downshift onto an exit ramp, it is a thrill.

* * *

I have probably done too much reading, but I do like the sound of how a single engine, shaft and prop are protected by the keel, a real nice feature on the ICW and many orher shallow destinations. Approx 7 years ago, on my trip home from Florida, I touched bottom (something hard) between 2 buoys in the ICW, at 5mph. Damaged shaft and prop. On a positive note, it was a great 3 week layover in St. Augustine. I wonder if having the single engine would have made this only a bump in the road.

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We also have a sports car, and it more than makes up for the lack of speed on the trawler. That said, like a boat, it is a luxury - one that we wish we had more time to take to the track.

We also have a single engine full keel SD boat. We generally cruise around 8 knots. The fastest we have been is 15.5 knots. We much prefer the slower rate running on the AP. However, it does mean that we leave earlier than our boating friends, and arrive later. But I will say that for the size, we have much better living accommodations, storage, and less impact from weight when loaded for a trip.

The advantage of the single keel that you referenced is real. Because most of our boating is on a river, logs and such are a major issue, particularly in the spring and after heavy rains. All of our boating friends have twins with exposed props, and I am not over stating when I say that they all wind up with some prop damage every season. We hit something, likely an uncharted rock pile, a couple years ago, and the only damage we suffered was to the bottom paint on the bottom of the keel. It was enough to lift the boat about six inches as we passed over it, and we were really worried about damage, but it came through fine. In the end, our single is much less expensive to run when it comes to both fuel and maintenance, not to mention we are still on the original prop. But, I would be lying if I didn't admit that there are times when we wish we had more speed.

ranger42c said:

FWIW, sometimes a decent engine room can sneak up on you a bit... without seeming be a stand-up at first.

We have a day hatch into ours from the cockpit, so it's easy enough to go down in "crouch-up" mode to make normal daily checks and to do most routine maintenance. But we also have lift-able hatches in the saloon, so we can expose each engine from the top and better reach some of the stuff on the outboard side of each.

IOW, not stand-up, wouldn't be advertised as stand-up... but access gets fairly reasonable for most things... and I think there might be many more boats like that than there are with true stand-up ERs.

Ours is not perfect, but it's decent, and about correct for the size boat we have.

-Chris

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My issue is, if I have to start lifting hatches, I will not look at things daily. For the type of boating we do now, the electric hatch to the ER is fine. The space between my engines is very good for a pleasure craft. But, if we are going to live on a boat, I will want the ER well organized and spotless, ensuring I can be proactive as possible. I enjoy tinkering, so having my tools, fluids, and hopefully a small work table with a vise, would be both handy and enjoyable for me. Being able to change an impeller or fuel filter without being a contortionist will be hugely important for me. At home I spend more time in my garage fixing and building things than I spend in my house. I know myself and I am not getting younger. If it is a pain to get to things, they will go unchecked longer than I am comfortable with. I am the kind of boater that checks my oil after every run. Probably because it is easily done on my boat. And, knock on wood, after owning this boat 8+ years, putting on approx 800 hours, and few thousand miles, I have not yet needed to add oil. Knock on wood, I love my Cats!

Nomad Willy said:

Stickman wrote;
"I just tell everyone to regard the next boat (FD trawler ) as a sailboat.......but without the sails"

When people ask me what kind of boat I have I usually say "It's like a fish boat w/o the fishing gear".

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I use the same response almost verbatim. I acknowledge that most people want fast and the market for my boat is very, very limited. If I posted Sherpa for sale, it would probably take years to sell her! Very few would tolerate a 6 knot world.

Dani-lu said:

My issue is, if I have to start lifting hatches, I will not look at things daily.

Click to expand...

Sure, got that. Meant to describe in our case and similar, we only have to lift the hatches for more serious stuff, like valve jobs.

Well, OK, changing the port side raw water pump impeller and the two zinc anodes in the aftercoolers -- all on the outboard side of the engine -- is easier with the port side hatch lifted, too.

But even that's usually only bi-annual service for one of the zincs, and once every couple years for the impeller and the other outboard zinc.

Otherwise, everything's reasonably accessible via the day hatch, with about 4½' of "headroom". The other impeller, oil, and oil/fuel/coolant filters, all easy.

Not a recommendation, just another reason to consider more boat options if you need to.

Adding a work table and vise begins to add a whole 'nother degree of size, though. I think.

-Chris

ranger42c said:

Sure, got that. Meant to describe in our case and similar, we only have to lift the hatches for more serious stuff, like valve jobs.

Well, OK, changing the port side raw water pump impeller and the two zinc anodes in the aftercoolers -- all on the outboard side of the engine -- is easier with the port side hatch lifted, too.

But even that's usually only bi-annual service for one of the zincs, and once every couple years for the impeller and the other outboard zinc.

Otherwise, everything's reasonably accessible via the day hatch, with about 4½' of "headroom". The other impeller, oil, and oil/fuel/coolant filters, all easy.

Not a recommendation, just another reason to consider more boat options if you need to.

Adding a work table and vise begins to add a whole 'nother degree of size, though. I think.

-Chris

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Appreciate all your comments. As I said, I have a lot to learn and I am trying to make sure I have all the info I can gather ensuring I make an educated purchase. We love our current boat, but we know we need a lot more boat to enjoy long term cruising.

Dani-lu, I certainly understand the desire/need for a commodious ER. I have a typical crawl-around ER space. Having spent a fair amount of time there, it isn't too bad. However, I don't live on my boat. If I did, then I would tend to agree with your desire for a space that was large enough to work in, beyond just engine maintenance.

I tend to start out wanting it all, and will make concessions as we move closer to a decision. To afford living on a boat and keeping our home, I need to do as much maintenence as possible, especially when we are far away from home. I just can't hang upside down changing impellers and filters anymore. I want/need a real ER. I have been hearing how some of you have good size ER's with room to access almost everything, but you need to be sitting. Maybe this will be the compromise I make, but I have a bad back and being able to stand up straight, stretching my back as I work is key to me being able to stay on top of all the moving parts in the ER.

So, where are we? I am leaning towards a semi-displacement, with a good sized ER. I want 2 heads, preferably separate standup showers in each, but I would compromise with only one separate standup shower. This is the set up we currently have on our boat and it works fine, even when we have guests overnighting. I would prefer a raised pilot house, with side doors for easy exit to assist with lines when needed. We want an island master bed, something we don't have now. Other considerations - one or two engines? I am not a fan of an aft cabin where the cockpit is raised. I like the cockpit at water level, with easy access to the swim platform. Well, where do I go from here? What boats should I be researching? I am thinking 43 to 50', and controlling price with age of boat. Price is kind of up in the air, but I would think at least $300k, with room to go up if I fall in love with the perfect boat, a Unicorn.

Thanks again for all the input.

Jeff

Jeff,

If its any consolation, if you spend enough time on the boat, you'll always want a "bit more" .
Last year was 171 days of cruising, with almost 40 days before and another 30 days after. Another 50 days during the winter getting ready for this years cruise.
This years trip so far is kinda the same as last year, just a bit farther north.

We also at times would love more speed occasionally. But really enjoy a great fuel burn rate of less than 3 gals an hour including Hurricane heater and generator use.

Take into consideration how much you will actually use the boat for cruising.

Cruising with ASD this year as much as we are, two totally different boats, yet we are enjoying the cruise. They have more living space onboard and they can kick up the Kitty Cats if needed and get somewhere rather quickly. We on the other hand max out at 10-11 knots and the fuel burn for those few precious knots is ridiculous.
Good luck on your hunt, but above all else, use the darn thing and you'll enjoy it even more.

Cheers, John

Go fast

By the way, this was our boat before the Selene. In good clean water it was fun, not so much fun in lumpy stuff.

I've come from a performance sailing cat background that could, depending on the point of sail achieve wind speed.
Unfortunately as is the case with performance boats she was not suitable as a live aboard, weight was the enemy.

Yes, it is mildly disappointing dropping back to 8's, but we are still going faster than most sailing yachts and our comfort level while doing it is high.

Reality is as a full time cruiser, be it sail or power, moving is 5% of your time onboard.
You get to a destination and sit for a week, quite often more so I am more concerned about the suitability for 95% of the usage, not the 5%.

Crusty Chief said:

By the way, this was our boat before the Selene. In good clean water it was fun, not so much fun in lumpy stuff.

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Wifey B: I like it. I like it. I like it.

Wifey B:

Here's what we had before Florida, not our boat, just one like it.



55 knots WOT, but I'm sure Crusty's was faster.

Speed of the boat follows the general rule of boating that the different boats are for different usages. I have always added to the discussion that a faster boat allows you to get somewhere faster with the comment that I don't see the faster boats using their speed to get to far away places. When we cruised North America we saw a number of Chicago full displacement and semi-displacement boats in Florida and the Bahamas, but only rarely saw a planing boat from Chicago, whereas the overwhelming majority of power boats in Chicago are planing boats. In Bermuda and the eastern Caribbean I have never seen a US or Canadian planing boat (sport fish excepted).

What this tells me is that the planing boats are not bought for long distance cruising where there is no "home base" but for round trips from a home marina and then back to the home marina.

Neither the planing boats nor the full/semi-displacement boats are better, they just have different uses.

This is my runabout boat.

And my trawler.


If i'm completely honest i'm having a bit of trouble with the lack of speed but I honestly think it's an autopilot issue because having the constantly be at the helm while single handing the boat(50% of the time alone) can be kind of exhausting. I've resorted to spending most of my time @ the lower helm because running up and down that ladder is going to kill me one of these days. It also doesn't hurt to be in the AC .

Dani-lu said:

So, where are we? I am leaning towards a semi-displacement, with a good sized ER. I want 2 heads, preferably separate standup showers in each, but I would compromise with only one separate standup shower. This is the set up we currently have on our boat and it works fine, even when we have guests overnighting. I would prefer a raised pilot house, with side doors for easy exit to assist with lines when needed. We want an island master bed, something we don't have now. Other considerations - one or two engines? I am not a fan of an aft cabin where the cockpit is raised. I like the cockpit at water level, with easy access to the swim platform. Well, where do I go from here? What boats should I be researching? I am thinking 43 to 50', and controlling price with age of boat. Price is kind of up in the air, but I would think at least $300k, with room to go up if I fall in love with the perfect boat, a Unicorn.

Thanks again for all the input.

Click to expand...

Hello Jeff,
We sold our 47 Bayliner Pilothouse last year for half that amount of money and I believe it hits everything on your list pretty well. It was our third Bayliner Pilothouse as we owned two 45 version before the last 47 version. Our initial shopping list was similar to yours and it also included: shallow draft. air clearance for the loop, sleeps 6+, good range, good tankage, and a place to carry a reasonable RIB.
Perhaps something like that would fit....

Dani-lu said:

So, where are we? I am leaning towards a semi-displacement, with a good sized ER. I want 2 heads, preferably separate standup showers in each, but I would compromise with only one separate standup shower. This is the set up we currently have on our boat and it works fine, even when we have guests overnighting. I would prefer a raised pilot house, with side doors for easy exit to assist with lines when needed. We want an island master bed, something we don't have now. Other considerations - one or two engines? I am not a fan of an aft cabin where the cockpit is raised. I like the cockpit at water level, with easy access to the swim platform. Well, where do I go from here? What boats should I be researching? I am thinking 43 to 50', and controlling price with age of boat. Price is kind of up in the air, but I would think at least $300k, with room to go up if I fall in love with the perfect boat, a Unicorn.

Thanks again for all the input.

Jeff

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Hi Jeff have you looked at the 47' Sabrelines? No Pilothouse and not a walk in ER, but may fit some of your criteria.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/cache/searchResults.jsp?slim=quick&Ntt=47+sabreline&searchtype=searchbar&Ntk=boatsEN&N=2280+1783&sm=3&luom=126¤cyid=100

Todd

Dani-lu said:

I would prefer a raised pilot house, with side doors for easy exit to assist with lines when needed. We want an island master bed, something we don't have now. Other considerations - one or two engines? I am not a fan of an aft cabin where the cockpit is raised. I like the cockpit at water level, with easy access to the swim platform. Well, where do I go from here? What boats should I be researching? I am thinking 43 to 50', and controlling price with age of boat.

Click to expand...

I think there are some older Hatteras cockpit motor yachts and yachtfishers that might be worth a look. Somewhere in the 53-58' range. Think some of those had both pilothouses and real cockpits... Maybe some of their LRCs had both, too...

I suspect something like that could make us move up, but I'd also want to search for the slightly more recent years ('89? '90?-ish) when they moved away from 32V systems... and I'd have accept two-stroke DDs as the initial going-in propulsion.

And I'd have to accept many of the systems would like need refreshing... not always a bad thing, since I'd essentially be baselining much of the boat...

I have actually given this some semi-serious thought... but then there also comes a point where if the boat gets too big, it isn't great anymore for just a quick trip around the Bay for lunch and things like that.

-Chris

Dani: for easy engine access avoid V style engines. Inline sixes run smooth and usually provide better hull side access.

ranger42c said:

I think there are some older Hatteras cockpit motor yachts and yachtfishers that might be worth a look. Somewhere in the 53-58' range. Think some of those had both pilothouses and real cockpits... Maybe some of their LRCs had both, too...

I suspect something like that could make us move up, but I'd also want to search for the slightly more recent years ('89? '90?-ish) when they moved away from 32V systems... and I'd have accept two-stroke DDs as the initial going-in propulsion.

And I'd have to accept many of the systems would like need refreshing... not always a bad thing, since I'd essentially be baselining much of the boat...

I have actually given this some semi-serious thought... but then there also comes a point where if the boat gets too big, it isn't great anymore for just a quick trip around the Bay for lunch and things like that.

-Chris

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Those are really great boats and we really looked at them as well. For us they were not a good solution due to our desires for draft, air clearances, weight, the 32vlts, and many of the mechanicals which would have necessitated much more dollars and/or time in maintenance. We had cruised with one of these models a few years back and IMHO they represent a great example of this type of boat. The 58' Hatt we traveled with was so large inside that it was more like a small house than any other boat along for that trip.

ranger42c said:

I have actually given this some semi-serious thought... but then there also comes a point where if the boat gets too big, it isn't great anymore for just a quick trip around the Bay for lunch and things like that.

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Such was the case for me years ago. I had a 54' sport fisher that I loved but it was a giant PITA when friends just wanted to take a short bay cruise.

ksanders said:

What you just said makes allot of sense, and potential boat buyers should read it carefully!

In any mission profile where a Semi displacement boat will perform safe and comfortably...

Most active cruisers will not recoup in fuel savings the cost differential between an equivelent age, size, etc... semi displacement boat, and a passagemaker style boat.

The price differential between a Searay, Silverton, Meridian/bayliner on the SD side and a Nordhavn, Krogen, Seline on the FD side is all else equal (size, vintage) hundreds of thousands of dollars.

You can buy a hell of a lot of fuel, and probably even retire years earlier if your mission profile makes the SD boat a viable candidate.

I will guarantee that there are things the FD passagemakers can do that the SD boats cannot. There are days that the SD boat will stay in port where the FD boat will venture forth.

But... If one (like the OP) is thinking fuel savings are going to ever overcome the cost difference between these two styles of boats, well... That is just not going to happen.

The only real exceptions to this are older KK 42's and Willards, and Other "trawler era" boats out there. Some of these can be had for very reasonable prices, so they offer single engine FD economy, and reasonable pricing. Many can be had for significantly less purchase price than a similar SD style boat, makeing them a cruisers dream.

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Ksanders,

The fuel cost vs purchase price depends......

If the cheaper MY is cruising faster and getting 1 nmpg, which is common vs. the more economical more expensive trawler getting 2 nmpg, one could spend $150K more for the trawler with the economy for a loop trip (6000 mi) and break even. (value of money at 5%).

But if it's a marina condo, going out once a month, fuel is a non issue.

And for a passage maker crossing oceans, fuel could make a HUGE difference.

I'd bet that the majority of us don't travel 6000 mi a year, and probably way less than half of that. So one needs to look at the usage. Also, if money is an issue a single is cheap, but not by huge amounts.

Dani-lu said:

So, where are we? I am leaning towards a semi-displacement, with a good sized ER. I want 2 heads, preferably separate standup showers in each, but I would compromise with only one separate standup shower. This is the set up we currently have on our boat and it works fine, even when we have guests overnighting. I would prefer a raised pilot house, with side doors for easy exit to assist with lines when needed. We want an island master bed, something we don't have now. Other considerations - one or two engines? I am not a fan of an aft cabin where the cockpit is raised. I like the cockpit at water level, with easy access to the swim platform. Well, where do I go from here? What boats should I be researching? I am thinking 43 to 50', and controlling price with age of boat. Price is kind of up in the air, but I would think at least $300k, with room to go up if I fall in love with the perfect boat, a Unicorn.

Thanks again for all the input.

Jeff

Click to expand...

Jeff,

We are close to being in the same boat (pun intended). However, you're set on a bigger boat and sounds like you'll do more of the live a board life style that we do, but we are planning on the loop.

I'm with you, don't like the aft cabin and much prefer the open cockpit, where we spend a lot of time.

We ended up with the 400 Mainship, single engine. Not stand up ER, but doable for an old retired fart. But only has a single head. The 430 "might" be an option for you, as well as the Beneteau fast trawler. Both in your price range and both have some speed when needed. However, my 400 with the SD hull will cruise high speed at 13kts and top out at 15.5. But 7 to 8 is the comfort zone.

Another nice thing about the above it they have room for toys, which is a must for us. Bikes, windsurfer, kayak and a dingy.

The Mainship is not an ocean going vessel, but great for the ICW, loop and short week trips. The Beneteau is better for ocean, and I looked at one very seriously. But at $300K it didn't have enough bang to pay almost double the Mainship. And, I need to save money for my other toys.

I'll also take the Mainship out for lunch runs, less than a few miles. It take little more time than my 280 Sundancer and is cheaper to operate. My only issue in launching the Mainship is tide... I live in a really shallow cove, hopefully you don't have that issue.

So, lots of choices out there. Keep us posted.

Seevee said:

The Mainship is not an ocean going vessel, but great for the ICW, loop and short week trips. The Beneteau is better for ocean, and I looked at one very seriously. But at $300K it didn't have enough bang to pay almost double the Mainship. And, I need to save money for my other toys.

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Don't think I'd hesitate to take a 430 or your 400 out in the ocean... at least as far out as I'd want to go, and with attention to impending weather and so forth. Times crossing to the islands, etc., wouldn't seem to difficult...

The original owner of our previous Mainship -- the older 34' model -- routinely went offshore, tuna fishing...

I think all those boats would take more than my crew and I can.

And without criticizing Benetaeu, I've heard from owners and charterers that those are mostly just French-built Sea Rays, Carvers, Silvertons, Cruisers, etc... nice boats, but no better, no worse than any of those other Chevies or Fords. That's not from personal observation, though...

-Chris

Codger2 said:

Such was the case for me years ago. I had a 54' sport fisher that I loved but it was a giant PITA when friends just wanted to take a short bay cruise.

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Who'd you buy the boat for, you or your friends?
If they want a short bay cruise they could go on that charter boat over there >>>>>

I love traveling at 8 knots. The journey is a bigger part of the trip than the destination for us.

And, our boat will go a lot faster than that.