8 Knots - Are you kidding?

My first mate has always (35 yrs) asked me to to slow down our "go fast" boats to a ride speed she feels comfortable with (pitch, bounce, roll).

Our next boat is FD as I found myself at 6-9 knots to keep the first mate happy and wanting to be on the boat. As one of my life long friends, and life long boater says, remember there is no family boating if the family doesn't want to come along.

I just tell everyone to regard the next boat (FD trawler ) as a sailboat.......but without the sails. Then the expectations are met- but the accommodations are a pleasant surprise.

While I can't speak for the OP, I believe that the Sundancer design, while popular, might not be best for long distance cruising in terms of comfort.

Peter B said:

Ok, you got some good feedback. Now you give us some. What was your wife's reaction to the 8 kn speed..? You didn't say...

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Wifey B: It's a very individual thing but this individual is not made for 8 knots. We chartered one time a boat that cruised at 12, WOT at 14 and could not stand it. Don't just cruise a little while slow to decide. Go an extended period (days, weeks) at slow speeds, no cheating to speed up, and then see how you both feel.

To go from 6 knots to 8-10 knots is one thing but when you're coming down from 20 to 10 then that's a huge change. Some like it, some hate it. And those who have never gone faster can't really understand.

A lot of good information, not totally sure you can take your 20 knot cruise boat and effectively go 8 knots and think this is a great/equal test, somewhere in the back of your mind you know you slide those two handles up and you are gone, whereas a nice low HP diesel just chugging along, hull slipping through the water, nice music on the background and I think you have a different picture, maybe rent a trawler down in the Caribbean? .

Stickman wrote;
"I just tell everyone to regard the next boat (FD trawler ) as a sailboat.......but without the sails"

When people ask me what kind of boat I have I usually say "It's like a fish boat w/o the fishing gear".

We had a boat that would do 36kts and we cruised at 20kts. The admiral preferred it when we were in no wake zones and doing 6 or 7 kts. Our next boat will be a trawler. Also, situations develop much more slowly at 8kts than at planing speeds, so it makes a trip (except in flat, deep, open water) much less intense.

Donsan said:

None of the destinations you mention really require or justify a Kady, Selene or Nordhavn.

If you really like a planing boat and want more space, the Sea Ray aft cabin and sedan bridge models will give you both at a much more wallet friendly price and you can still cruise at 8 knots when you want to. In fact, the cost savings on purchasing a used Sea Ray aft cabin over one of those other brands will probably pay for your fuel the rest of your life no matter how fast you go. There are many no wake zones as you cruise up and down the east coast where you will be doing less than 8 knots anyway.

Now if you really want more room in the engine room, that is another story.

There are many posters here who have traded boats somewhat often but probably at some financial loss. If at all possible, try the lifestyle in your current boat at 8 knots and then decide if you really want/need a trawler style boat.

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You just touched on a few topics I wanted to cover, so I will ask some questions here. I made a list of nice to haves and must haves in our next/retirement boat.

ER "walk in" access is a must have. Fortunately I am only 5' 6" and handy enough to do most maintenance (filters, hoses, belts, etc) and some repairs myself. This is a must have for two reasons, 1. To make sure I can and "will" proactively inspect and maintain everything in the ER. 2. I am not getting younger and crawling behind or squeezing into the outboard sides of my engine and geni is not getting easier. For example, I currently pay a mechanic to change the the impeller on my starboard engine. 3. Besides enjoying working on my own boat, it will become a must when on a fixed income, allowing us to maintain a comfortable cruising lifestyle.

Your comment on trying this on our boat, is exactly what my wife said. Clearly you are smarter than me, like my wife . But, I have well maintained twin 385hp, turbo, Cat 3126's with 1,300 hours. Am I causing any mechanical issues running these engines at 8 kts all day?

Based on our planned travels, I figured a full-displacement trawler was overkill. Does running diesel 2800 WOT RPM at 700 or 800 rpms for 8 to 10 hours or longer a day, do any damage? Or is it as simple as running them up to their rated cruise 2300 rpms every few hours?

Thanks,

Jeff

"coming down from 20 to 10 then that's a huge change."

One big difference is watch standing requirements under way.

Even with the AP working the 20K skipper has to be ON! every second of the trip.
Stuff Happens Almost like being at work! Even in blue water.

The 7-8K boat can usually continue under AP while the bridge watch enjoys a book, checks the charts , or perhaps takes a whiz over the side.

Stress or no stress is a choice.

AusCan said:

My last boat had the ability to cruise at 25+ knots but often anything above 10 knots often meant I was hammering into the waves. There were times I could barely walk at the end of a day of "cruising" due to the pounding the boat and occupants took. I decided that there was no need to get somewhere a hurry. That isn't what I wanted a boat for. I wanted a boat to enjoy myself on the water with family and friends.

Now we cruise with comfort at 6 knots in relaxed mode on autopilot. We see more along the way and arrive at the destination (if there is one) feeling good.

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I too slow down when in rough seas (short interval waves), which is anything larger than 3' in a 40' Sea Ray. 10' swells, no problem. 6' short interval waves, trawler speed. And, I try to avoid anything bigger than 3', to avoid my boat and passengers taking a beating.

Bruce B said:

8 to 9 knots is a huge increase in speed for us!
Actually, our previous 38' sailboat could sail at 7 plus knots for extended distances in the correct conditions. Our best 24 hour distance was 195 miles but... 6 knots was the norm under power.
Our boat will hit just about 20 knots loaded and it will cruise at 16 all day but she is happiest at 8 to 10 knots. The fuel burn rate and noise at 8 knots make it an easy regular cruising speed.
Bruce

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I was waiting for a sail boater convert to chime in. For the record, I love sail boating. The silence is incredibly relaxing. Also, I was impressed how most sail boaters understand the passing process on the ICW and I always followed the process.

Dani-lu said:

Does running diesel 2800 WOT RPM at 700 or 800 rpms for 8 to 10 hours or longer a day, do any damage? Or is it as simple as running them up to their rated cruise 2300 rpms every few hours?

Thanks,

Jeff

Click to expand...

Yes, it's as simple as that.

Peter B said:

Ok, you got some good feedback. Now you give us some. What was your wife's reaction to the 8 kn speed..? You didn't say...

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At first she was not impressed. But once I explained to her burning 28 gallons per hour is not realistic in retirement, well at least my retirement. She said "I guess I could get used to this". Especially when we are in crystal clear torqoise waters down south. I also explained range to her and she remined me of my trip to Florida. I then explained how carefully I planned each day of travel, especially when I ran outside. I always had a plannned inlet and then the backup options, like when I got dirty fuel.

FF said:

"coming down from 20 to 10 then that's a huge change."

One big difference is watch standing requirements under way.

Even with the AP working the 20K skipper has to be ON! every second of the trip.
Stuff Happens Almost like being at work! Even in blue water.

The 7-8K boat can usually continue under AP while the bridge watch enjoys a book, checks the charts , or perhaps takes a whiz over the side.

Stress or no stress is a choice.

Click to expand...

Now I find 35 knots 10 miles offshore to be far less stressful than 10 knots in the ICW. And I don't agree with turning one's attention to reading a book or leaving the helm regardless of what speed. I think you need to be ON regardless of speed.

I believe those who have always gone slow really have a lot of misconceptions about going faster in a boat. Plus a fast boat can always go slow but a slow boat can't go fast.

menzies said:

We previously had a Silverton 40 Aft Cabin that we cruised bewteen 15-17 knots.

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We moved from a 30' Hunter sailboat to a Silverton 40 Aft Cabin. It has amenities of a small condo and as for travel speed.......... one engine @ 1700RPMs out and the other engine at the same RPM on return. If the conditions turn unfavorable, then time for both engines.

After 25 years of 4-6K in our Hunter, 7K is similar to flying. I will add though, traveling on a single engine could become tiring if we lacked auto pilot. Half the fun is just getting there. OH, before I engaged in single engine travel, I spoke to an applications engineer at Borg- Warner about potential harm to the transmissions. Was advised things would be just fine if we didn't push the boat above about 8K.

Dani-lu said:

At first she was not impressed. But once I explained to her burning 28 gallons per hour is not realistic in retirement, well at least my retirement. She said "I guess I could get used to this". Especially when we are in crystal clear torqoise waters down south.

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And were you having this conversation while you were underway at 8 kts?

So you could actually hear each other speaking?



-Chris

smitty477 said:

" Until this weekend I did not explain to her how our speed would change with a trawler. So, after taking a nice ride at 20kts, I slowed our boat down to 8kts, and explained to her how this would be our new cruising speed. I also explained the financial necessity for this change."


Hello Dani-lu,
Used to see and read your posts at boatered. We had two 'trawlers' that were powered such that they were really limited to 8 knots or so. I think what will help you see what it is really like is to run in flat neutral seas at 8 knots and record your boats rpm. Then make a full trip out to Block Island and back or maybe up the Hudson to Kingston and back with that rpm as your top limit.
That will give yourself and your wife a good experience at 8 knots and a good feel for the total fuel consumption difference that you can expect with your boat.
As a couple of others have posted - that was not a good solution for us as we like to be able to get up on plane at times even though we also like to cruise slower at other times. Being in an 8 knot boat with a 3-5 knot tide hitting you on the nose is an experience for sure - you have hit them going to BI for sure but may not have really notice them while traveling faster.

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Het Smitty477, I have seen your posts on boatered as well. I still go on BE often, just not a lot of traffic anymore. You are correct, I don't worry about tide when heading to BI or even Hells Gate in Manhattan. The only time I pay attention to tide is with inlets. I avoid wind against tide. Ignoring this rule has gotten me in 6 to 8' waves exiting Fire Island inlet. To be honest, I enjoyed it, my adrenaline was flying, my attention was 110% in the moment and I feel the only way to become a better captain is to experience different conditions. I also gained trust in my boat and what she can handle (a lot more than me). Reading the books and taking the courses is a must, but nothing beats experience. When I have guests onboard, I hardly ever leave the bay, unless I know the ocean is dead calm and they want to see how blue our NY waters can be.

Dani-lu said:

At first she was not impressed. But once I explained to her burning 28 gallons per hour is not realistic in retirement, well at least my retirement. She said "I guess I could get used to this". Especially when we are in crystal clear torqoise waters down south. I also explained range to her and she remined me of my trip to Florida. I then explained how carefully I planned each day of travel, especially when I ran outside. I always had a plannned inlet and then the backup options, like when I got dirty fuel.

Click to expand...

I would do one long trip now this season limited to my 8 knot rpm - all the way out and all the way back.
Then you will have a good feeling for how you will do with another boat that has those limits.

My 38000# ACMY boat would do 22 Kts or 9 Kts happily. We ran at high cruise when offshore but inside at trawler speed. Fuel use at slow speed was 2+ Nmpg and 0.5 at 22 kts.

We are happy with both speeds when appropriate but our cruising plan is often limited to 5 hours per day between stops. We are really not in a great hurry to get to the next place.

Speed is great to have when longer open water passages are required so as to not make a long day of it.
I came from long time as a sailboater so at first 8 Kts seemed fast. []

Just slow down with your present boat. In the end it will be the cheapest way to enjoy the cruising life.

Dani-lu said:

Het Smitty477, I have seen your posts on boatered as well. I still go on BE often, just not a lot of traffic anymore. You are correct, I don't worry about tide when heading to BI or even Hells Gate in Manhattan. The only time I pay attention to tide is with inlets. I avoid wind against tide. Ignoring this rule has gotten me in 6 to 8' waves exiting Fire Island inlet. To be honest, I enjoyed it, my adrenaline was flying, my attention was 110% in the moment and I feel the only way to become a better captain is to experience different conditions. It also gained trust in my boat and what she can handle. Reading the books and taking the courses is a must, but nothing beats experience.

Click to expand...

I agree on all counts - once when we had our 8 knot trawler we headed from Amityville to Northport and had no choice but to be in a head sea at the Verazano bridge - I must have counted the beams under that bridge at least 3 times while we were moving underneath headed north.
I learned quickly to get an Eldridge tide book and plan my trips carefully around the currents once they represented 25-60% of my cruising speed.

FWIW - our last boat was happily on plane at 16-17 knots burning less than 20 gph and could also run easily at 7 knots with a 2.5 gph burn rate or less.
There are various choices out there so I would test the speed limits on a real cruise and see how you like the trip(s).
All in all it is a good problem to be deciding about is it not?

Donna said:

I came from a Sea Ray with a 454 engine. Soon got tired of feeling like riding a jet ski. Besides I prefer to travel on the outside on a calm day. I now travel at 8-9 knots on autopilot and am quite happy about that. 6-7 hours a day traveling is max. I have done 10 -13 hour days because there was no choice and that I am not a fan of.

I'll take what I have now over speed any day!

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Donna,

I think speed is a bit more important now, because our time on the boat is limited, due to work getting in the way. When retired or semi-retired, we will be able to enjoy the journey even more and not have to be on any schedule, other than what the weather dictates. Can't wait!

Stickman said:

I just tell everyone to regard the next boat (FD trawler ) as a sailboat.......but without the sails. Then the expectations are met- but the accommodations are a pleasant surprise.

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Funny, this is exactly what I told my wife.

foggysail said:

We moved from a 30' Hunter sailboat to a Silverton 40 Aft Cabin. It has amenities of a small condo and as for travel speed.......... one engine @ 1700RPMs out and the other engine at the same RPM on return. If the conditions turn unfavorable, then time for both engines.

After 25 years of 4-6K in our Hunter, 7K is similar to flying. I will add though, traveling on a single engine could become tiring if we lacked auto pilot. Half the fun is just getting there. OH, before I engaged in single engine travel, I spoke to an applications engineer at Borg- Warner about potential harm to the transmissions. Was advised things would be just fine if we didn't push the boat above about 8K.

Click to expand...

That's my old boat right there in your avatar! 1989?

k9medic said:

While I can't speak for the OP, I believe that the Sundancer design, while popular, might not be best for long distance cruising in terms of comfort.

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Spot on. We love our boat. I had a custom mattress made, so our bed on our boat is more comfortable than at home. This was the best 3 boat dollars I have ever spent.

But, very little storage (scuba gear, compressor, RIB dinghy, kayaks, fold up bikes, etc.

Working in ER is for young skinny folks with good backs.

But, I think we may use it as a liveaboatd for a few months, before we spend a few hundred grand (obviously not new) on a liveaboard. Who knows, maybe we will find our liveaboard while anchored in a cove or on this forum.

SeaLion said:

We had a boat that would do 36kts and we cruised at 20kts. The admiral preferred it when we were in no wake zones and doing 6 or 7 kts. Our next boat will be a trawler. Also, situations develop much more slowly at 8kts than at planing speeds, so it makes a trip (except in flat, deep, open water) much less intense.

Click to expand...

6-7 knots is "no-wake"? For my boat, a SD hull, a no-wake speed is 4.5 kts or less. Anything higher and I am putting out a noticeable wake. There is a reason it takes me 20 minutes to get out my harbor, all of which is a no-wake zone.

The the OP, I think the best advice is what Mark mentioned earlier. Why are you out boating? If it is to get to another location, then a faster boat is very nice as it allows you to get there quicker to enjoy that location. If you are boating for the experience of getting to another location, then a displacement speed is just fine.

Of course for all of us, we are somewhere in between those two extremes. That may be why there are so many of us that own SD hulls instead of FD or planing hulls. An SD hull is a compromise. There are also a lot of differences in those boats. Mine for example, will cruise very comfortably at 7-8 kts. 7 kts at 2 gph is pretty economical. I can go 10-11 kts but it is very loud and burns 5x the fuel. I am happy at 7 knots. Others have SD hulls that can get up to 15 kts without too much headache and still be very economical at 8 kts.

So have you and your wife figure out where on that spectrum from "hurry and get to where I want to be" to "I'm where I want to be on my boat at 6 kts" you think you fall. Depending on where that is, pick the boat that will match.

I also agree with those that have mentioned that some of the blue-water FD boats out there are so expensive that you will never make up the difference in fuel efficiency. However, there are many reasons to buy a boat such as a Nordhavens, Selene, KK, etc... Some like the cachet of owning a passage maker. Others just like the looks (face it, we all pick boats partly because of their looks). The thought that your boat can handle most any weather you might run into is another comforting thought. Honestly though, most owners of those boats don't take full advantage of their capabilities.

Many of us on TF own, or have owed, sports cars. I have a poor man's sports car, a 350Z. Great car! However, it makes no sense to own it. I haven't raced it in a few years now. I rarely have access to roads where its speed, acceleration, and cornering abilities give me any advantage over my old SUV. Most of the time, the poor thing is relegated to being a daily driver. Yeah, it is a fun daily driver, but a daily driver none the less. Boats are the same. If a passage-maker catches your fancy and you can afford it, go for it. Just realize that the excuse of fuel efficiency is just that, an excuse.

ranger42c said:

And were you having this conversation while you were underway at 8 kts?

So you could actually hear each other speaking?



-Chris

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LOL. My cat diesels purr like a lion.

BandB said:

Yes, it's as simple as that.

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That was easy.... thanks.

smitty477 said:

I agree on all counts - once when we had our 8 knot trawler we headed from Amityville to Northport and had no choice but to be in a head sea at the Verazano bridge - I must have counted the beams under that bridge at least 3 times while we were moving underneath headed north.
I learned quickly to get an Eldridge tide book and plan my trips carefully around the currents once they represented 25-60% of my cruising speed.

FWIW - our last boat was happily on plane at 16-17 knots burning less than 20 gph and could also run easily at 7 knots with a 2.5 gph burn rate or less.
There are various choices out there so I would test the speed limits on a real cruise and see how you like the trip(s).
All in all it is a good problem to be deciding about is it not?

Click to expand...

It is a great first world problem to have . I always say, I don't want this ride (life) to end, so maybe I will age slower at 8kts.

We so much economically enjoy best of both worlds: 1977 Tollycraft 34' twin screw, planing hull, self contained, flying bridge... seaworthy and comfortable to ocassionally live aboard tri cabin.

Cruise all day 16 to 17 knots = 1 nmpg
Cruise 6 to 7 knots using both engines = close to 2 nmpg
Cruise at 4.5 to 5 knots on one engine = approaching 3 nmpg
WOT 21 to 22 knots = OMG fuel use!

Happy Cruise-Speed Daze! - Art

menzies said:

That's my old boat right there in your avatar! 1989?

Click to expand...

1990--

Not shown in my avatar is my new hardtop that covers the helm nor my work in progress for my new canvas. I have one of the last two curtains stretched out on our living room floor almost ready for sewing the vinyl into the navy blue Sunbrella. Wifey is getting excited ..............every time she sees me invading her floors with stretched out canvas.

Have 4 140 watt solar panels mounted onto the rear hardtop. I just ordered their replacements, 4 each Canadian 295 watt panels that are back ordered.

Wish I could move upward to something close to what you now enjoy. But slips around here become unaffordable as size increases much over 40.

dhays said:

6-7 knots is "no-wake"? For my boat, a SD hull, a no-wake speed is 4.5 kts or less. Anything higher and I am putting out a noticeable wake. There is a reason it takes me 20 minutes to get out my harbor, all of which is a no-wake zone.

The the OP, I think the best advice is what Mark mentioned earlier. Why are you out boating? If it is to get to another location, then a faster boat is very nice as it allows you to get there quicker to enjoy that location. If you are boating for the experience of getting to another location, then a displacement speed is just fine.

Of course for all of us, we are somewhere in between those two extremes. That may be why there are so many of us that own SD hulls instead of FD or planing hulls. An SD hull is a compromise. There are also a lot of differences in those boats. Mine for example, will cruise very comfortably at 7-8 kts. 7 kts at 2 gph is pretty economical. I can go 10-11 kts but it is very loud and burns 5x the fuel. I am happy at 7 knots. Others have SD hulls that can get up to 15 kts without too much headache and still be very economical at 8 kts.

So have you and your wife figure out where on that spectrum from "hurry and get to where I want to be" to "I'm where I want to be on my boat at 6 kts" you think you fall. Depending on where that is, pick the boat that will match.

I also agree with those that have mentioned that some of the blue-water FD boats out there are so expensive that you will never make up the difference in fuel efficiency. However, there are many reasons to buy a boat such as a Nordhavens, Selene, KK, etc... Some like the cachet of owning a passage maker. Others just like the looks (face it, we all pick boats partly because of their looks). The thought that your boat can handle most any weather you might run into is another comforting thought. Honestly though, most owners of those boats don't take full advantage of their capabilities.

Many of us on TF own, or have owed, sports cars. I have a poor man's sports car, a 350Z. Great car! However, it makes no sense to own it. I haven't raced it in a few years now. I rarely have access to roads where its speed, acceleration, and cornering abilities give me any advantage over my old SUV. Most of the time, the poor thing is relegated to being a daily driver. Yeah, it is a fun daily driver, but a daily driver none the less. Boats are the same. If a passage-maker catches your fancy and you can afford it, go for it. Just realize that the excuse of fuel efficiency is just that, an excuse.

Click to expand...

I too own a sport car and agree, it does not get used for what it was built for, but when I do hit the gas pedal or downshift onto an exit ramp, it is a thrill. I guess this is like a Nordhavn that has never seen blue water.

Knowing I mst have a standup ER, probably eliminates certain brands, models and or sizes of a model. What I mean is, there could be a small Ocean Alexanders without a standup ER, which means I may have to get a 48 Alexander to get the ER I want. This is just an example, I have not researched this brand yet.

I like having options, so I think I want a SD, but one that will handle seas when needed. This should not happen often, since the weather will be my only clock. But when you are far from land, weather can change quickly and I want to be safe and as comfortable as possible.

I am okay with not cruising at 20 kts, but the ability to cruise at 15 kts would be a good compromise. Does this limit me to two engine SD's or are there single engine SD's. I like having 2 engines, because you can always limp in on one engine - it has happened to me. If I had the stand up ER, I would have kept changing fuel filters until I got to destination.

I have probably done too much reading, but I do like the sound of how a single engine, shaft and prop are protected by the keel, a real nice feature on the ICW and many orher shallow destinations. Approx 7 years ago, on my trip home from Florida, I touched bottom (something hard) between 2 buoys in the ICW, at 5mph. Damaged shaft and prop. On a positive note, it was a great 3 week layover in St. Augustine. I wonder if having the single engine would have made this only a bump in the road.