Help with design

cgoodwin · Jul 7, 2011

I have a 56' displacement hull cruiser, don't really know if it could be considered a trawler, more of a cruiser I guess but 8knts is a happy and economical pace. Just rebuilt the twin 6-71's from 1948!

When I first brought her up from Tocama to Seattle I lost both motors from fuel contamination and found myself adrift in the shipping lanes and was not terribly happy about that. Two days later my Dodge diesel truck lost power from a plugged filter. Now this truck will tell me if a door is not shut, if a license plate light is out, if it is below freezing or if any of the gauges is out of range, but nothing about the condition of the fuel filter until it is plugged and the motor dies taking with it the power brakes and steering, not unlike my boat which lost the ability to manuver and to stop.

I decided to sort the issue out and designed a filter which fits between the fuel tank and the on-board filtration on the engine (as not to void warranty), all fuel going to the engine passes through this filter and the filter is monitored by a computer built into a standard 2 1/16" gauge in the wheel house or on the dash of a truck. If the computer detects water in the fuel or high vacuum indicating a plugged filter, it automatically bypasses the filter and sounds a 90db alarm and lights an indicator telling you that you have either water in fuel or high vacuum and that the filter has bypasses and now you have only your stock on-board filtration. There is a button on the gauge allowing you to silence the alarm but the filter remains locked out until it is serviced and the fault remedied.

What I am asking here is if this seems like something that would be of interest to the trawler market and if there are any additional features that would be desired. I filed a patent on the system in January and have had a lot of interest from trucking companies and stationary generator companies but really designed it for marine use.

Any thought greatly appreciated.

Fotoman · Jul 7, 2011

Very interesting. I would love a system like that on my boat.

jleonard · Jul 7, 2011

It would be nice *to have a pre warning before the filter got bypassed.

Conrad · Jul 7, 2011

Although not explicitely stated it sounds like you have a vacuum gauge at the helm for ongoing monitoring?

The only addition I would suggest (strongly) is that you have another filter in parallel that would take the bypassed flow in the event of plugging or water contamination. That way you continue to have the full integrity of your filtering system which could be critical if the plugging and water problems came on suddenly and were significant. Similar to the practice of installing dual Racors.

The question then would be whether the system would or could *be designed to switch the s/d capabilities between the two parallel filters.*

Delfin · Jul 7, 2011

Sounds like a very useful device, especially for those who don't think that fuel polishing has any value.* I also agree that it might be better to give you a warning that bypass might happen before it happened, perhaps just a warning light rather than the high decibel alarm.

RickB · Jul 7, 2011

cgoodwin wrote:Any thought greatly appreciated.

It sounds like a solution looking for a problem and is unnecessarily complex, expensive, and prone to*undetected failure. If it functioned as designed it*would*only serve to contaminate downstream filters rather than advise the operator that he still has time to check the fuel or change the filter.

A simple and inexpensive GEMS PS83 vacuum switch on the outlet of the primary filter will*illuminate a warning light*or sound an alarm if vacuum reaches a certain point to indicate filter plugging well in advance of problems. An off the shelf water detection probe and alarm from Racor will do the same to indicate water long before it reaches the filter element.

The water detector can be installed in a drop leg before the filter (if you don't use Racors with the built-in*thread boss in the bowl)*and the vacuum switch can be installed in an existing thread boss on most primary filters. It is an easy and quick project for nearly anyone who likes to tinker with his or her boat.

The water detector/alarm and vacuum switch together can be had for around $150. What does your device cost?

-- Edited by RickB on Thursday 7th of July 2011 12:56:13 PM

markpierce · Jul 7, 2011

My Coot has dual Racors with a*valve to select either or both, as well as a gauge.

I also had a fuel polisher system installed, which also includes a gauge.

*

*

None of this is automatic, however; but wish that "Racor" gauge had been placed in the pilothouse rather than the engine room.

*

*

-- Edited by markpierce on Thursday 7th of July 2011 01:01:11 PM

jleonard · Jul 7, 2011

"A simple and inexpensive GEMS PS83 vacuum switch on the outlet of the primary filter"

Dang, GEMS is right down the street from where I work.

*I am going to look into this.

*

cgoodwin · Jul 11, 2011

"It would be nice *to have a pre warning before the filter got bypassed."

It would be impossible to do so really other than using analog gauges, vacuum changes depending on ambient temp, fuel temp, filter temp and fuel demand. We know that most systems will not last with fuel vacuum exceeding 8 Hg, newer HPCR fuel systems can suffer catastrophic failure at this point. The set point for the bypass is therefore set at 8 Hg and really any filter under 8 Hg is plugged severely.

With the water sensor, again we have to set a point and this point has been determined over decades of trial and error. Diesel fuel in hygroscopic meaning it absorbs water from the atmosphere (New ULSD diesel is even more hygroscopic) and this water builds up in the fuel until it drops out and collects in the bottom of the tank, in addition most fuel systems return a large quantity of heated fuel to the tank, when the engine is shut down and the fuel cools, condensation forms in the tank and collects in the bottom of the tank. These droplets sit behind baffels in the tank, they cling to rust spots and debris in the tank and when there are enough they agglomerate and form a layer of water in the bottom of the tank. Bacteria live in the water and feed on the fuel right at the interface between the fuel and the water and thier life cycle produces sulfuric acid, their dead bodies from sludge and the acid and sludge from rust. The rust accellerates the oxidative breakdown of the fuel, asphaltines and polymers are formed, etc.

There are two scenarios.

1) This build up is very slow and is picked up by the filters as the fuel is consumed and the filters are changed and poses no threat.

2) The debris builds up behind baffles and in the corners of the tank and the water collects in the tank slowly eating through it. The vessel is taken out and as the engine speeds up and increases demand for fuel and therefore suction on the pick-up tube in the tank, the fuel line sucks up goo and water - or the vessel hits rough water, the engine speeds up increasing suction just as the wave action is causing the fuel to slosh about the tank washing all the crap into the bottom of the tank where it collects at the lowest point - right where the fuel pick-up tube is.

In #2 the debris or collected water is sucked up the pick-up and plugs the filter right at the time when it is least desired, usually when entering the shipping lanes, trying to avoid an obstacle or manuver in rough water and the vessel loses its ability to manuever and to stop. This is the point where suddenly someone must open engine hatches or go into the engine room and manually switch filters then restart the engine, just the point where you really don't want to ask your inexperienced and kind of slow brother in-law Phil to take the wheel.

"Although not explicitely stated it sounds like you have a vacuum gauge at the helm for ongoing monitoring?

The only addition I would suggest (strongly) is that you have another filter in parallel that would take the bypassed flow in the event of plugging or water contamination. That way you continue to have the full integrity of your filtering system which could be critical if the plugging and water problems came on suddenly and were significant. Similar to the practice of installing dual Racors.

The question then would be whether the system would or could *be designed to switch the s/d capabilities between the two parallel filters."

No, the ssytem does not have its own vacuum gauge although a vacuum gauge is a great tool, the problem is that a gauge is only useful when you are looking at it and while it tells you that there is an issue, it does nothing to solve it. I would also suggest a vacuum gauge of course.

There is another filter, the stock filtration, whatever that is. Most engines come with filtration and removal or modification of that filtration voids the warranty on the motor, this unit takes the place of the prefilter in most systems and since the stock filters have never seen anything except clean fuel, when it bypasses you still have the stock filters. In addition these filters may be daisy chained. Now on older vessels you often see a garbage filter rated at 30, then two racors with a*selector valves, then the fuel pump, then the final filter between the pump and injection system. This filter would take the place of one of the racors and the selector valve and would have the advantage of not allowing the system vacuum to get high enough to damage fuel system components, would not require that anyone go to the filters to switch them (always at the worst possible time) and would provide an alarm and indication of what the actual issue is.

Most often water contamination in filters is gradual collecting as water is drawn into the filter and collects at the lowest point, when enough water has collected to fill the bottom of the bowl and bridge the contacts on the sensor the alarm goes off, then the water hits the chemicaly treated filter media which swells shut plugging the filter completely before water can get to the injection system and destroy it. This filter functions the same way but does everything automatically without needing to manualy switch filters and check on the condition. It is a Fail-Safe device and gives the user time to get his vessel to safe harbor and service the filter without losing power and therefore the ability to manuver and to stop.

cgoodwin · Jul 11, 2011

"It sounds like a solution looking for a problem and is unnecessarily complex, expensive, and prone to*undetected failure. If it functioned as designed it*would*only serve to contaminate downstream filters rather than advise the operator that he still has time to check the fuel or change the filter.

A simple and inexpensive GEMS PS83 vacuum switch on the outlet of the primary filter will*illuminate a warning light*or sound an alarm if vacuum reaches a certain point to indicate filter plugging well in advance of problems. An off the shelf water detection probe and alarm from Racor will do the same to indicate water long before it reaches the filter element.

The water detector can be installed in a drop leg before the filter (if you don't use Racors with the built-in*thread boss in the bowl)*and the vacuum switch can be installed in an existing thread boss on most primary filters. It is an easy and quick project for nearly anyone who likes to tinker with his or her boat.

The water detector/alarm and vacuum switch together can be had for around $150. What does your device cost?"

Now you are a guy with a lot of "NO" in you.

"It sounds like a solution looking for a problem and is unnecessarily complex, expensive, and prone to*undetected failure. "

You are wrong. last year Vessel Assist / Sea Tow reported that 95% of all calls were the result of plugged filters. The National Trucking Institute stated that 97% of all failures were fuel related and with the advent of ULSD those numbers are expected to increase. Most people already have dual switchable filters, why? Becasue the problem of sudden filter plugging without warning has been around as long as diesels have been being put in boats. Often filter plugging or water buildup are not a slow accumulation, they are sudden and occure as gunk and water are washed into the bottom of the tank.

You have absolutely no idea how complex the system is and if it is prone to failure or not as you know nothing of its function or design, you are simply assuming that is is complex and prone to failure becasue you wish to be negative. It in fact utilizes the same water probes that all filters use and the same type os switch that your oil and fuel pressure senders use, the saame ones that there are dozens of on every automotive engine in the world and most newer diesel. Were these devices "Prone to failure" we would have stranded vehicles everywhere and planes falling from the sky. Calm down Chicken Little, it's going to be OK.

"If it functioned as designed it*would*only serve to contaminate downstream filters rather than advise the operator that he still has time to check the fuel or change the filter."

Wrong again. In a conventional set-up you have two racors on a manifold, when one plugs or fills with water you rush to the engine compartment or room as the engine is failing from lack of fuel or the HPCR pump is starting to glow red, and you switch from the dirty filter to the clean one and rush back to try and regain control of the vessel until you can get to safe harbor and change the first filter and switch back to it, basically resetting your manual fail-safe system. This does exactly the same thing except you never lose power, never risk damage to the engine and never need to leave the wheel.

"A simple and inexpensive GEMS PS83 vacuum switch on the outlet of the primary filter will*illuminate a warning light*or sound an alarm if vacuum reaches a certain point to indicate filter plugging well in advance of problems. An off the shelf water detection probe and alarm from Racor will do the same to indicate water long before it reaches the filter element."

But yet you clearly do not have this installed do you? If you did you would have mentioned the set point of the vacuum switch. There are obvious failure modes in your suggestion. Varrying vacuum on the system would have the alarm sounding when it was cold or when fuel demand suddenly increased and the alarm would be providing false positives, in addition neither the vacuum switch nor the off the shelf water alarm would prevent you from having to leave the wheel and get into the engine compartment when they sounded, most likely when you are using vessel power to avoid an obstacle, manuver around a situation or deal with rough weather now would they?

-- Edited by cgoodwin on Monday 11th of July 2011 09:24:01 AM

cgoodwin · Jul 11, 2011

"Sounds like a very useful device, especially for those who don't think that fuel polishing has any value.* I also agree that it might be better to give you a warning that bypass might happen before it happened, perhaps just a warning light rather than the high decibel alarm."

On the contrary, I also have an automatic fuel polisher on the bench. The reall issue with polishing is that you rare drawing from one point in the tank and returniong to another. I polished all 475 gallons of fuel aboard Brigand for 2 days before leaving port, when I hit the shipping lanes, pushed the throttles from 8knts to 11knts and crossed the wake of a container ship the fuel in the tank sloshed around the baffles and washed all that crap right to the fuel pick-up and I lost one motor and managed to steer toward the shore before the other died. I had no time to leave the wheel, move the carpet, open the hatch, climb down into the engine room and start searching for the issue or switch filters and try to get the engines restarted, I was hoping that wind and wave would not conspire to ground me, breach me or put me in harms way while I franticly watched the depth sounder and prepared to set the hook - assuming that the windlass did not fail.

Polishing has great benefits but does not rinse the tank like wave action does and in the end the engines filters*are a polishing system moving up to 60 GPH an hour through the filter and returning 50 of that back to the tank...

The issue with just an idiot light is that you have to be looking at it rather than through the helm window. I build race cars for years and expedition vehicles after that, all of them had alarms on mission critical systems becasue the operator is most likely not going to be looking at the gauge when a failure occures. On race cars we had most of the gauge taped off, the gauge turned so that the normal needle position was always straight up, a warning light next to each gauge and an audiable alarm.

Here is Brigand at present and as delivered in 1952

-- Edited by cgoodwin on Monday 11th of July 2011 09:44:45 AM

-- Edited by cgoodwin on Monday 11th of July 2011 09:45:52 AM

Conrad · Jul 11, 2011

No, the sytem does not have its own vacuum gauge although a vacuum gauge is a great tool, the problem is that a gauge is only useful when you are looking at it and while it tells you that there is an issue, it does nothing to solve it. I would also suggest a vacuum gauge of course.

There is another filter, the stock filtration, whatever that is. Most engines come with filtration and removal or modification of that filtration voids the warranty on the motor, this unit takes the place of the prefilter in most systems and since the stock filters have never seen anything except clean fuel, when it bypasses you still have the stock filters. In addition these filters may be daisy chained. Now on older vessels you often see a garbage filter rated at 30, then two racors with a*selector valves, then the fuel pump, then the final filter between the pump and injection system. This filter would take the place of one of the racors and the selector valve and would have the advantage of not allowing the system vacuum to get high enough to damage fuel system components, would not require that anyone go to the filters to switch them (always at the worst possible time) and would provide an alarm and indication of what the actual issue is.

*********************************************************************

I would perhaps agree that the helm mounted vacuum gauge would not necessarily be much help in the event of a sudden massive plugging of the filter, but it certainly would be useful for monitoring gradual plugging. And it would be monitored in the same diligent (hopefully) manner as other gauges.

To be truly useful though, I still think that your system would benefit from having the diverted flow go through a parallel filter rather than be allowed to hit the engine supplied filter uninhibited. To use your scenario, the system is really intended for the sudden onslaught of gunk from the tank, and once your system has kicked in there is nothing left to protect the engine except the engine filter. So in reality the boat would have to be stopped in any event to change the element in the filter, otherwise the continuing onslaught will probably do in the engine filter and potentially the engine itself.

Brigand is a beauty!!!

RickB · Jul 11, 2011

cgoodwin wrote:Now you are a guy with a lot of "NO" in you.

*
More a guy with a lot of KNOW.
But yet you clearly do not have this installed do you? If you did you would have mentioned the set point of the vacuum switch.
Sold a lot of your devices have you? Got a few thousand hours running them on a few thousand boats?

I dont have a vacuum alarm because I have vacuum guages and Im not trying to sell anything. The setpoint of the alarm switch is adjustable through its range so the user can set it where it provides the most useful information in way of how much vacuum he is willing to tolerate before changing filters.
*You have absolutely no idea how complex the system is and if it is prone to failure or not as you know nothing of its function or design, you are simply assuming that is is complex and prone to failure becasue you wish to be negative.
I have no desire to be negative for its own sake but I also have no qualms about calling a spade a spade and pointing out what I see as the use of fear mongering to sell a product intended to prevent a situation that can be avoided for free through the use of common sense and good maintenance habits.
*If as you stated, it uses a pressure(?) switch and a water detector circuit then the signals from those sensors has to be processed in some way according to some algorithm or parameter you have decided fits the situation. Then those signals have to go to a power switch, then to an actuator of some sort to change the position of a valve to divert the flow of fuel. How many layers and devices does that entail?

If your device has circuitry or software to prevent the "false alarms" that you see as such a threat then that is another layer of hardware or software. A simple failure of the software, processor, power supply, a voltage spike, a stuck relay, frozen actuator, jammed linkage, or any other of a thousand things will leave the customer with another useless piece of boat junk that seemed like a good idea at the time and was promoted to solve a problem that scarcely exists.
There are obvious failure modes in your suggestion. Varrying vacuum on the system would have the alarm sounding when it was cold or when fuel demand suddenly increased and the alarm would be providing false positives,
It is no more a problem or a failure mode than the occasional low lube oil alarm when throttling back rapidly or any number of other transient alarms that we all hear and understand for what they are.
If you are afraid of having to leave the wheel then a Morse cable or a solenoid valve and a switch on the panel will provide a means to change filters without having to install one of your computerized automatic save your butt from not knowing the condition of your tanks and filters device that you will be so happy to sell for how much?
Including a vacuum gauge or having a vacuum alarm light in your engine instrumentation scan is no more problem than glancing at the oil pressure, the chart plotter, or the coolant temperature.

Just because you stepped in a pile of crap once doesnt mean everyone else needs to line up to buy your brand of hip boots.

JD · Jul 11, 2011

cgoodwin wrote:What I am asking here is if this seems like something that would be of interest to the trawler market and if there are any additional features that would be desired. I filed a patent on the system in January and have had a lot of interest from trucking companies and stationary generator companies but really designed it for marine use.
Any thought greatly appreciated.

*Mr. cgoodwin,

Your first post asked for* "Any thoughts" but when you get them you want to make a Pi**ing Contest out of them.* If you are here to tell us how wonderful you invention is do so.

You have jacked up more folks in*four posts than some do in two years.

BTW Welcome to the Forum, or maybe not.

cgoodwin · Jul 21, 2011

But yet you clearly do not have this installed do you? If you did you would have mentioned the set point of the vacuum switch.
Wow, you got your panties all in a bunch now didn't you. The set point of the vacuum switch varies depending on the engine it is being used on, anyone with a lot of "Know" would not have to ask that question. I have 6 units mounted in OTR trucks and 3 in stationary generators.
Sold a lot of your devices have you? Got a few thousand hours running them on a few thousand boats?
No and if that

I dont have a vacuum alarm because I have vacuum guages and Im not trying to sell anything. The setpoint of the alarm switch is adjustable through its range so the user can set it where it provides the most useful information in way of how much vacuum he is willing to tolerate before changing filters.
Not selling anything except yourself. On modern engines it is not up to the user to determine how much vacuum he is willing to tolerate, the new FI systems are quite specific about what they will tolerate and unless you want to be replaceing a $4K HPFP you better make sure the vacuum does not exceed the spec.
I have no desire to be negative for its own sake but I also have no qualms about calling a spade a spade and pointing out what I see as the use of fear mongering to sell a product intended to prevent a situation that can be avoided for free through the use of common sense and good maintenance habits.
Interesting when 97% of all diesel enbgine failures are attributed to contaminated fuel and/or plugged filters. Seems that there is a lack of common sense going around, maybe a lack of maintenance... Maybe diesel fuel is hygroscopic and absorbs moisture from the atmosphere. Maybe it suffers oxidative polymerization and breaks down. Maybe asphaltines drop out of the fuel and form sludge. Maybe bacteria develops in the fuel and its waste forms acids that eat into the metal of the tank. Maybe diesel reacts with metals and breaks down. Maybe the newly mandated ULSD has made this issue worse as the sulfur was a natural biocide that is now missing. Maybe new injection systems require very, very clean fuel and today we need to filter to 2 microns rather than 10microns. It must be fear mongering that caused Sea Tow to tell me that at least 3/4's of all responses to diesel vessels were due to plugged*fuel filters.
*If as you stated, it uses a pressure(?) switch and a water detector circuit then the signals from those sensors has to be processed in some way according to some algorithm or parameter you have decided fits the situation. Then those signals have to go to a power switch, then to an actuator of some sort to change the position of a valve to divert the flow of fuel. How many layers and devices does that entail?

If your device has circuitry or software to prevent the "false alarms" that you see as such a threat then that is another layer of hardware or software. A simple failure of the software, processor, power supply, a voltage spike, a stuck relay, frozen actuator, jammed linkage, or any other of a thousand things will leave the customer with another useless piece of boat junk that seemed like a good idea at the time and was promoted to solve a problem that scarcely exists.
Really not going into the specifics but you could overcomplicate an egg. You have a WIF sensor that measures capacitance and a vacuum sensor which is mechanical. Each sends a signal to a circuit which either supplies voltage to an output ot not. Just as the controllers on your FI system in your car work but much less complicated as there is no mapping. Just like your garage door works, the start cuircuit on most marine engines, the controllers that close and lock doors on planes or modern cars. And yes I have a background in fuel system design and have a product with a more complicated controller that has been sold all over the world since 2003 and I have yet to have a single failure. Were these control circiuts as prone to failure as you would like to think, we would have no automation at all, your washer has one, your dishwasher, dryer, microwave, your car has several, some devoted to simple tasks like locking the trunk. Your automatic transmission has several and several solenoid valves, as a matter of fact most marine gears have solenoids in them functioning in the same way and many made by the same company. I guess we better go back to steam power and direct drive, hand oilers and crank starts.
There are obvious failure modes in your suggestion. Varrying vacuum on the system would have the alarm sounding when it was cold or when fuel demand suddenly increased and the alarm would be providing false positives,
I know! Imagine that, do you really think that vacuum would vary when demand increased? I had not though of that! Look there is a maximum permitted vacuum for every fuel system, exceeding it for any reason can damage the fuel system. If being cold or suddenly increasing load and RPM cause the fuel system to exceed that vacuum, you have a problem. This is an obvious failure mode in the fuel system and the one I am trying to address.
It is no more a problem or a failure mode than the occasional low lube oil alarm when throttling back rapidly or any number of other transient alarms that we all hear and understand for what they are.
That makes the incidence of vessels going adrift a complete mystery! Fuel polising must be a scam and all those fools with towing insurance must be living in fear.
If you are afraid of having to leave the wheel then a Morse cable or a solenoid valve and a switch on the panel will provide a means to change filters without having to install one of your computerized automatic save your butt from not knowing the condition of your tanks and filters device that you will be so happy to sell for how much?
I was thinking about a boot on a broomstick, it could kick a chicken that would lay an egg and... Are your resistent to the idea of a starter motor, electric wipers, electric bildge pumps - what about automatic bilge pumps! What kind of fool would use such a thing, can't he just be aware of the condition of the bilge and his vessel? Hell there is no better bilge pump than a frightened sailor with a bucket, it was good enough for dad and it is good enough for me!
Including a vacuum gauge or having a vacuum alarm light in your engine instrumentation scan is no more problem than glancing at the oil pressure, the chart plotter, or the coolant temperature.
Vacuum alarm light? By your logic it would be rought with issues, the bulb could burn out and you would never know, the wires could fall off or the sender get stuck and provide a false positive. The oil pressure gauge could break and burn you with hot oil or the electric sender could fail, hell it could all go bad and all the factory smoke could get out of the wires! Chart plotter! Are you mad, do you know how complicated and failure prone those things are, chart plotters are sold*to prevent a situation that can be avoided for free through the use of common sense and good navigation habits. GPS, sensors, speed and depth transducers, all failure prone and a dangerous scam for lazy people, hell you could just use a cable with a weight on it, good enough for Mark Twain shoucl be good enough for you!*
Just because you stepped in a pile of crap once doesnt mean everyone else needs to line up to buy your brand of hip boots.
Just becasue you would rather go barefoot does not mean that others might not want a good pair of boots.

*

RickB · Jul 21, 2011

Are you aware of how many times you quoted yourself pretending to*be me*then argued with yourself about it?*

*

*

Giggitoni · Jul 21, 2011

Nomad Willy · Jul 21, 2011

cgoodwin,

I'm absolutely Ga Ga over your boat. She's got more class than anything I ever remember seeing on Trawler Forum. More pics please.

But I don't like your device/idea. If one has dirty fuel or fuel tanks one needs to service their system and that does not mean polishing fuel. The tanks and fuel need to be properly dealt with and that could mean replacing both tanks and fuel. All these quick and dirty ways of dealing w contaminated fuel tanks is not proper maintenance. Boaters need to insure that their systems are properly designed, installed and maintained. Once that is done and continued there will be no need for snake oil or devices that may save a boater from getting underway with dirty fuel or tanks. I don't like anything that is a substitute for good maintenance.

Tidahapah · Jul 21, 2011

Exactly right Eric, polishing fuel is just that, polishing fuel.
Now cleaning tanks is a different job and has to be done by MT ing the tanks and then physically removing the crud and scale , result clean tanks.
Then polish the fuel by all means

cyril444 · Jul 21, 2011

Hey guys,
I wonder what percentage of boat owners out there on the water, or at the dock, really know what is going on with their boat systems. I think that most of us that are on this forum and other forums are a bit more interested in how their boat works or doesn't work. There really isn't any point in argueing why some people should know more about what is going on with their boats than they do because in my limited experience most people don't know and prolly don't want to know. They pay others to take care of stuff for them. From what I can see anything that keeps people alive and safe is a good thing just like bow and stern thrusters.

FF · Jul 22, 2011

The existing solution is a Murphy (or other) gauge that measures the differential pressure across the fuel filter.

This not,, suction* on tank feed* line is what needs to be monitored

OTS

Just two lines ,and the gauge has an adjustable alarm operator sets at the gauge face..

-- Edited by FF on Friday 22nd of July 2011 03:33:49 AM

cgoodwin · Jul 22, 2011

<q>I'm absolutely Ga Ga over your boat. She's got more class than anything I ever remember seeing on Trawler Forum. More pics please.</q>

Thank you, I am in year three of a complete reconstruction. Finished rebuilding both 1948 6-71 detroit diesels, fired them off and started taking on water, ended up building two new stainless mufflers to replace the hand made mild steel ones in the boat hidden under the gangways and about 25' of fiberglass exhaust tube per side to replace the iron oxide tubing that was there. Rewired, replumbed, new steel under the 1.25" teak decks, strip and varnish everything, restore the lines of the wheelhouse to original (hardest part was hand making the trim around the windows, restored the roll down side glass, etc, etc, etc.

<q></q>

* But I don't like your device/idea. If one has dirty fuel or fuel tanks one needs to service their system and that does not mean polishing fuel. The tanks and fuel need to be properly dealt with and that could mean replacing both tanks and fuel. All these quick and dirty ways of dealing w contaminated fuel tanks is not proper maintenance.

*It is no more a substitute for maintenance than the indicator telling you that you need to change your break pads is a substitute. Or than having twin racors with a valve between them - why do you need two $500 filters side by side with a $900 manifold connecting them? Becasue WHEN you plug a filter underway you need only go to the engine bay, move the valve to select the other filter and you are under way again. My device does this automatically.

I grew up on commercial and pleasure boats in Seattle,*Seiners and offshore sport mostly. I*owned a dive center in Mexico and lived there for 9 years, we ran 11 boats daily and did S&R in our area becasue no one else could and outfitted film crews from Scripts and others. Began designing dive gear for film crews and was offered a job in Europe where I designed all the UW gear for 40 films and commercials and a couple dozen docos. I have been on boats and build gear for diving, filming, deployment and fuel systems in the Med, Red Sea, S.China Sea, Sea of Cortez, Pacific, Atlantic, Agean, Gulf of Mexico, Gulf of Thailand, Adaman Sea and I could go on. I built all the underwater gear for two Bond films and The Beach. Boats I have been on have lost engines, plugged filters, thrown rods, cought fire, several had manual bilge pumps, split planks sliding down a 30' wave in a hurricane, ran aground, cought crab pots and wrapped them, run out of fuel, hit other boats, one even had the transom fall off.

In many places fuel quality is not what it is here (1st world)*and in many places here fuel quality is not what it should be. Water collects in tanks, even if you monitor your tank while you are polishing your dipstick, you are still every day getting water in your fuel, many*pleasure boats*take a week or two week trip a year and other than that the boat sits - collecting water in the fuel. This is why we have clear bowls on the filters and have fuel polishing systems. Having dirty fuel is not a lack of maintenance, it is the nature of the beast, were it not we would have no need for filters at all, there is a filter in the fuel pump on the dock so the fuel you put in your boat was clean - right?

Well I want to thank you all for your input, I came here expecting exactly what I got and it will all be useful to me. If you want the find extreme opinions go to the zealots in a given field. You all spend time talking about your boats, workign on your boats or having work done on them, they are a hobby for you. Most people on the other hand are not the way you are and I have yet to speak to anyone on a work boat who does not have a story about plugging a filter.

(Condensation can be prevented by installing a desiccant filter on the tank vent line)

-- Edited by cgoodwin on Friday 22nd of July 2011 10:10:48 AM

cgoodwin · Jul 22, 2011

FF wrote:
The existing solution is a Murphy (or other) gauge that measures the differential pressure across the fuel filter.

This not,, suction* on tank feed* line is what needs to be monitored

OTS

Just two lines ,and the gauge has an adjustable alarm operator sets at the gauge face..

-- Edited by FF on Friday 22nd of July 2011 03:33:49 AM

*Actually a vacuum gauge needs only one line and Murphy makes some great gauges, in fact I have had several meetings with them about buying my device.

Suction on the tank line and water in fuel, remember you can run against a partially blocked filter but you cant run on water. Most injectors will be destroyed if a single droplet of water gets to them and modern HPCR systems can have the fuel rail blow off the motor...

FF · Jul 22, 2011

Suction on the tank line and water in fuel, remember you can run against a partially blocked filter but you cant run on water.

Current cheap filters do a fine job of water removal.
Your DD with a Raycore 1000 and the DD stock unit will shut down before water gets to the injectors.

I think the most important part of your post is stressing the FACT that mere filtering (AKA "polishing" ) in no way gets an old dirty tank useful for active waters.

ONLY a good scrub with a stick will get loose the grunge.

Better living thru chemistry has been tried , with mixed results.

An old pot scraper never fails , although you may need extra tank holes to get behind proper baffles.

RickB · Jul 22, 2011

cgoodwin wrote:Most injectors will be destroyed if a single droplet of water gets to them and modern HPCR systems can have the fuel rail blow off the motor...

*This just gets better and better. Or worse and worse depending on how you want to look at it.

Tell us just how a single drop of water is going to destroy most injectors and for sure tell us what makes the fuel rail "blow off the motor."

Mind you a "drop" is a huge chunk of water to make it through the industry standard 2 micron final filter used on common rail systems. It looks like you might benefit by spending some time looking at fuel filter specs and injection systems.

cyril444 · Jul 22, 2011

Rick,
Have you ever seen a high pressure water jet cut thru 6 in. of steel like it was butter! Water is one of the worst things you can run thru an injector. One drop however might not destroy an injector but it has the potential to screw up the spray pattern and cause irregular burning of the fuel.

RickB · Jul 22, 2011

cyril444 wrote:Have you ever seen a high pressure water jet ...?

*Yes, and cutting steel of any thickness usually requires inclusion of an abrasive with the water stream.* I have also seen diesel engine fuel injectors that inject a homogenized mixture of water and fuel and others that inject a bit of fuel, a bit of water, then another bit of fuel.

Contaminated water such as the free water found in a diesel fuel tank will cause corrosion damage to fuel injection components. It is corrosion that does the damage, not the water itself. Fuel itself erodes injector tips and screws up the spray pattern.

Unit injectors which are blocked by a corroded and siezed pintle valve can mechanically create enough pressure to fracture the tip ... the famous "blow the tip off" story normally attributed to steam pressure by those who know little about fuel injection or steam.

FWIW, the standard of "free water" removal for most high pressure common rail injectin systems is a 1000 beta 4 micron standard. Getting a drop (app. 60 microliters) into a common rail fuel system takes considerable effort and the total failure of every filter and separator between the fuel tank and the injector. Not to mention that by the time it got there it would be homogenized with the fuel anyway.

The OP comes across as a scare mongering huckster trying to sell a useles piece of gear to those who don't know any better.

-- Edited by RickB on Friday 22nd of July 2011 08:35:16 PM

Nomad Willy · Jul 22, 2011

cgoodwin,

The solution to this problem is to have a small sub tank (one quart or so) below the bottom of the fuel tank that is replaceable. This tank is connected to and plumed to the lowest spot of the tank and exits through the bottom of the tank. This way any water in the tank is immediately discharged through the hole in the bottom of the tank and into the sub tank. One drains the water out of the bottom of the sub tank from time to time. This way water never sits in the main tank. If a drain is installed on the side of the tank water will always be on the bottom of the tank. The usual way to remove water from a tank is to let it collect until it reaches the bottom of the sump tube and is pulled into the filter and is detected in the bowl there and drained out. From then on there will always be water in the bottom of the average fuel tank. But if the tank system is designed correctly water will never be in the tank and unless a batch of very bad fuel is ingested or the tank rusts or corrodes from the outside it should last the life of the boat. The solution is really quite simple and all this stress and gimmicks can be eliminated.

RickB · Jul 23, 2011

You don't have to build special sumps for each tank. A common solution to this (more percieved than real) problem is to install a water trap before the primary filter. Picture a device that looks exactly like one of those cartridge water filters but without the filter inside. Or just install an empty Racor 500 before the first filter inlet.

Many of these units have an alarm to indicate the presence of free water, some don't. Most have a drain valve to sample the contents and remove sediment. For the fuel flow and volume most trawler yachts use, one of these made from pipe with about a liter capacity would work just fine. Put one of those Racor water detectors in it and you have the same first line of defense as the world cruising superyachts.

If you have a little spare cash and are looking for bragging rights, install one of these.

Nomad Willy · Jul 23, 2011

The problem as I see it is that I think most or nearly all tanks have the drain through the side of the tank so when one drains the tank 1/8 to 1/4" of water remains in the tank. This water never ever gets out unless it's sucked up through the sump tube and into the filter but still ALL of it will never get out. I see the only solution to be able to drain 100% of the water is to have the drain hole go through the bottom (not the side) and have it in the lowest corner of the tank. With the system I described (a thread ago) there would never be any water sitting in the bottom of the tank. All other tank installations I suspect will always have water in the bottom of the tank.

Question:**** How many tanks out there drain off the bottom? I suspect most all (or even all) drain off the side. Tank builders probably do that thinking that clearance underneath the tank may not be present where the tank is installed and so must be attached to the side. That situation seals the fate of boat fuel tanks***** ....I think. And keeping tanks full will not come close to eliminating condensing water on the surfaces inside the tank exposed to air as much of the tank is the flat top surface. You can't fill a tank full enough to submerge that surface. The top surface is always exposed to air. Of interest is cgoodwin's* "desiccant filter" in the vent line*** .....at what expense I wonder.

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