Banned antifouling paint in the US

WesK said:

Whoa, big boy, Let's not get ourselves carried away.

The cause of pollution on this earth is humans. Get rid of the humans and the planet will survive just fine!

Oh, you think that's a bad idea? OK then, we have to balance pollution with humans and their activities. It seems pretty ironic for a guy who buys a boat made out of petrochemicals and burns fossil fuel to take him back and forth to places he doesn't need to go to be complaining about people's septic systems and so forth. Maybe you should trade your trawler in on a sailboat. Or better yet, a kayak.

If we're not going to get rid of the humans, we should minimize pollution. We can't eliminate it. We can't stop burning coal or making concrete without drastically changing our lifestyle. And if we continue to have recreational boating, we must continue to use effective bottom paints. Maybe someday there will be a bottom paint or treatment that causes no harm to the environment but since what we are trying to do with our bottom paint is prevent growth which is part of the environment, that's going to be pretty difficult to do.

And we can't control what other people do. The fact that tin based bottom paints are legal in other parts of the world is proof of that.

Personally, I'm not one to sneak illegal bottom paint into this country but I will continue to use the most effective legal products.

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Yo! I never said I'm a saint. Just thinking of best actions to take while still living/enjoying life. I'm not completely "green". I am somewhat thoughtful.

We live in an industrial society. Our activities are often going to cause pollution- that is a given. But knowing this, we as boaters should do what we can to be good stewards of the environment. So when have a choice of anti fouling paints, we shouldn't use one of the worst poisons ever intentionally introduced into the marine enviornment. Nor is it reasonable to be expected to use a product that (while environmentally-friendly) may have poor anti fouling properties. It's a balancing act. Do what you can to leave a small footprint.

Bay Pelican said:

I believe one can sell a non-US flagged vessel in the US. Very frequently done by Canadians who buy boats in the US register them in Canada but pay neither the HST (Canadian Sales Tax) or the Canadian import duty. When it comes time to sell they frequently sell the boat in the US without ever paying these two Canadian taxes.

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That's fine as long as you never bring it into Canada. I think these people are on thin ice if they ever brought them up here.

Jim

Greetings,
Mr. JDC. I don't think thin ice enters into it as long as the vessel never enters Canadian waters. IF it ever does, the owner immediately has to pay the applicable taxes. I've heard of a case (anecdotal information ONLY) where a Canadian bought a boat in the US that was licensed in the US and he kept it there BUT if he ever brought it into Canada, even for a short visit, he would owe taxes the same as if he were importing it.

Portable xrf guns cost has dropped significantly BECAUSE customs snd border officials have purchased scads of them in the last 5-10 years. Easy and fast way to verify materials. 10k or 14k gold? Lead based paint? Improperly marked SS? Customs officers are very familiar with xrf capabilities. When I was looking to import an Albin from the States, a signed declaration stating the bottom paint type was required to cross the border.

JDCAVE said:

That's fine as long as you never bring it into Canada. I think these people are on thin ice if they ever brought them up here.

Jim

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Jim

From what I hear from my Canadian friends you are absolutely correct and most would not even try to bring the boats to Canada. These are boats bought outside of Canada and will be used exclusively outside of Canada.

About half the Canadians I have met in the Eastern Caribbean have boats registered in Canada and have not paid the duty or HST. The boats are bought in Florida or the Eastern Caribbean and are not intended to be used in Canada.

Some Americans and many Europeans are in the same situation. Their boats were bought in the Eastern Caribbean and duty and sales taxes have not been paid to the US or the VAT has not been paid to the EU countries. This is changing as the VAT has been adopted by Eastern Caribbean countries and thus it may be better to pay the taxes back home than to a Caribbean island.

Friends are selling an expensive ketch here in St. Lucia and as part of the closing the sellers have hired a captain to sail the boat out of St. Lucia to somewhere (I forget) where the VAT will not apply. Sellers and buyers are all Europeans.

Art said:

If I were a douchbag regarding a certain circumstance... I sure wouldn't write openly about it! :lol:

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So here is a question. For all those that believe in no cooper base bottom paint, show me one report/proof that shows:

1. Dead fish/marine life due to copper paint,
2. That cooper paint from a boat is responsible for detectable pollution/dead marine life.

So far all I have seen is speculation.

So if you don't see dead fish floating around, high levels of copper must not be harmful?

Holy jeezus. Friggin' ponderous.

From the California Department of Pesticide Regulation:

"Although copper is an effective biocide, it may also affect non-target organisms and pose environmental concerns. Copper may be washed into the aquatic environment from agricultural and urban application sites and may enter water when used as a biocide in antifouling paint formulations. The latter use may constitute a major copper pollution contributor to California marinas, because antifouling paints continually leach from and are regularly scrubbed off boat hulls, thus releasing copper-containing paint residues into the surrounding water and sediment. The resulting copper concentrations may potentially be high enough to threaten aquatic organisms."

"Aquatic species differ greatly in their sensitivity to copper. Some animals, like mollusks, can tolerate high concentrations of the metal, while others are adversely affected by very low concentrations of copper. Emerging evidence shows that very low, sublethal copper levels can adversely affect the sense of smell and behavior of fish. The developmental stage of the fish at the time of copper exposure is critical to the reversibility of sensory function effects. The fish olfactory system may be the most sensitive structure to copper pollution."

fstbttms said:

. The resulting copper concentrations may potentially be high enough to threaten aquatic organisms."
"

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First it is from California. Second re-read your post. "cooper concentrations MAY...."

May. There are more pressing pollution concerns than those from recreational boaters bottom paint. No proof to indicate there is an ACTUAL affect on aquatic life. None! It is someone who is an environmental waco terrorist "feelings" about what MAY happen. You would think that there would be actual scientific proof as cooper based bottom paint has been around for a very long time. No proof.

Greetings,
Mr. ASD. Sorry, there IS proof of copper being toxic to marine organisms.

Is copper sulfate toxic to fish? / Algae Treatment / Knowledge Base - BioWorld Support

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olfactory_toxicity_in_fish

Copper - toxicity, ecological toxicity and regulatory information

Mechanisms of Copper Toxicity to Marine Fish - IAAAM1979 - VIN

I could go on you know...

Id love to get my hands on 20l of the black sparkly tacky anti-fouling the Australian Navy used 40 years ago it was good for 7 years in salt water I swapped a 6 pack of ice cold beer for 2 x 20l tubs at the then local Navel depot on a hot summer day all I remember is how heavy the tubs were

I have to wonder: If copper bottom paint is toxic to marine life (yes, it probably is to some extent), why have humans been using copper pipe in their homes to supply drinking, cooking and bathing water for so many years without problems?


I believe it's possible to rig tests to come to any desired conclusion.

Greetings,
Mr. WK. Copper pipes are solid metal whereas the copper used in anti-fouling paint is either a fine powder or a copper compound. The surface area of a powder is orders of magnitude greater than a solid so it reacts/leaches on a much greater scale.

Perhaps, in the future, copper WILL be found to have caused problems much like the findings on lead but so far, so good.

Indeed, tests can be rigged but I think in this case you're grasping at straws...

Toxic effects of a wide variety of metals have been proven BUT, many of the metals that have been proven toxic in larger amounts are trace elements essential for life. Copper is one such essential trace element.

What he said!!

fstbttms said:

So if you don't see dead fish floating around, high levels of copper must not be harmful?

Holy jeezus. Friggin' ponderous.

From the California Department of Pesticide Regulation:

"Although copper is an effective biocide, it may also affect non-target organisms and pose environmental concerns. Copper may be washed into the aquatic environment from agricultural and urban application sites and may enter water when used as a biocide in antifouling paint formulations. The latter use may constitute a major copper pollution contributor to California marinas, because antifouling paints continually leach from and are regularly scrubbed off boat hulls, thus releasing copper-containing paint residues into the surrounding water and sediment. The resulting copper concentrations may potentially be high enough to threaten aquatic organisms."

"Aquatic species differ greatly in their sensitivity to copper. Some animals, like mollusks, can tolerate high concentrations of the metal, while others are adversely affected by very low concentrations of copper. Emerging evidence shows that very low, sublethal copper levels can adversely affect the sense of smell and behavior of fish. The developmental stage of the fish at the time of copper exposure is critical to the reversibility of sensory function effects. The fish olfactory system may be the most sensitive structure to copper pollution."

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Holly Crap Rodger Rabbit... I had to go look that one up! "Fish olfactory system." Yup - there's a bunch of literature on that. Live and learn!

Copper still a hard swallow! Sure, ablative is soft of self cleaning but after a season's end, most bottom paint I see is still stuck to boat bottoms. Add the dilution factors and the ppm amounts again shrink.

foggysail said:

.................. There is no shortage of environmentalists ready to carry a flag and beat a drum under the presumption saving something, anything. And risk/benefit trade offs? Don't be an idiot, just bang the drum! OH--- AND BE SURE TO CALL THE MEDIA SO EVERYTHING IS TELEVISED!!!

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I was talking to a lady the other day and she said that we needed to stop burning fossil fuel and switch to electricity so we could cut out pollution. She said electricity doesn't pollute.

I asked her if she knew where electricity came from and she said "rivers".

Let's keep this thread off the politics of pollution etc.

Copper - Treatment, Use, Problems | Reef Sanctuary

Copper also cures fish of diseases. What is true in California is they always trumpet the negative, everything causes cancer and is harmful.

"The Naval vessels upstream from me are contaminating my bottom paint!"

"Tributyl tin isn't metal!"

"The biocide we use on our boat bottoms to kill marine organisms isn't toxic to marine organisms!"

"Copper is actually good for fish!"

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
...can anyone answer the question please. Does the banned paint have to be removed?

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If you are referring to tributyl tin paints, the answer is, "No, they do not have to be removed." But they do have to be overcoated in such a way that no tbt biocide can leach out. Know also that tbt paints are incompatible with copper-based products.

WesK wrote;
"I asked her if she knew where electricity came from and she said "rivers".

That used to be true in the PNW. And she was an "old lady". Huge numbers of people are not aware that has changed dramatically. This is also a statement that old people are dumb. They are actually smarter but some of their stored information is "dated". Young people are actually dumb to think that old people have less experience. Think of the young people's saying "been there done that". Opps .. I think Ive said that many times. What was this thread about?

Nomad Willy said:

WesK wrote;
"I asked her if she knew where electricity came from and she said "rivers".

That used to be true in the PNW. And she was an "old lady". Huge numbers of people are not aware that has changed dramatically. This is also a statement that old people are dumb. They are actually smarter but some of their stored information is "dated". Young people are actually dumb to think that old people have less experience. Think of the young people's saying "been there done that". Opps .. I think Ive said that many times. What was this thread about?

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As so often happens on web forums, you seem to have read a lot into my post that I didn't write.

I did not say she was "old". She's no spring chicken but she is several years younger than I am. And she is not from the PNW and I don't believe she's ever even been there. She is from the south east USA.

The lady in question works in the marina office. It's true that some electricity in parts of the USA is generated by hydroelectric dams, but environmentalists have pretty much assured that no more hydroelectric dams will be built in the USA. Nobody wants nuclear power plants in their neighborhood so basically, that's out. That leaves burning fossil fuel as the predominant method of producing electricity. The pollution is still there, the difference is, it's in somebody else's neighborhood.

Her argument was that electricity could be generated by solar and wind and her proof was that some homes use solar and wind power and sell excess energy back to the power company. That's not untrue of course, but solar and wind energy are not available 24/7. Storage for a home is not a big deal (it's just like on a boat), but on the scale to run cities and factories it's not practical.

Using stored electrical energy to power vehicles and boats is another issue. Battery technology is not there yet. Sure you can buy a car that will go 400 miles on a battery charge but if you need to go 500 miles, you are out of luck. It was my (and the dockhand's) argument that it's more efficient to burn fuel directly to power a vehicle or boat than it is to burn fuel to heat water to turn a turbine to produce electricity, transport it hundreds of miles, convert it to low voltage DC to charge a battery and then discharge the battery to produce power to run the vehicle or boat.

The strange (and sad) part of the whole conversation was that a marina (and her job) depends entirely on people burning fossil fuel to go places in their boats that they don't really need to go.

SeaHawk makes a primer that is a conversation/sealer to go over TBT paint or for unknown or incomparable bottom paints. I beleave one of the other major paint manufacturers does or use to market a similar product.

Greetings,
As an aside, the discovery that copper was an essential trace element happened in New Zealand. At one point, their sheep developed a condition called the "blind staggers". Not good for a nation that depends heavily on agriculture. Scientists found that a nutritional copper deficiency was the cause. When copper supplements were added to the sheep's feed, the condition disappeared. Further research indicated that New Zealand was lacking or low in a number of essential trace elements in the natural environment. Selenium is another that comes to mind. So New Zealand is the birthplace of trace element research. Go figure

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
As an aside, copper was discovered to be an essential trace element in New Zealand. At one point, their sheep developed a condition called the "blind staggers". Not good for a nation that depends heavily on agriculture. Scientists found that a nutritional copper deficiency was the cause. When copper supplements were added to the sheep's feed, the condition disappeared. Further research indicated that New Zealand was lacking or low in a number of essential trace elements in the natural environment. Selenium is another that comes to mind. So New Zealand is the birthplace of trace element research. Go figure

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Greetings,
Mr. g. But, but...they're not staggering. :lol:

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Mr. g. But, but...they're not staggering. :lol:

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I'd say that about as staggering looking a flock o' sheep I ever seen! The one on right to rear looks as though it'd gonna fall over... Look at its ears, mouth slant and the tilt on the glasses. That is a staggering blind sheep! :lol:

Stop it Art. You`ll excite the New Zealanders.

Thank God for the Paint Police.
If not for them, who knows what mayhem would follow.