Twins? Should I be intimidated by twin engines?
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- FlyWright
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- 1977 Marshall Californian 34 LRC
If you thought redundancy was truly important, shouldn't you own a catamaran?
Ted
Have you ever seen a cat underway with one hull filled with water? Me neither.
Cats are not hull redundancy...they are hull efficiency.
My thick, solid Californian hull is stout enough for me.
BruceK
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And in that case, a chainsaw. Or maybe 2If you thought redundancy was truly important, shouldn't you own a catamaran?
Ted
.I hope you cave dive better than you sail.
Ted
Kinda funny the last cat I was on at the Miami show was a gunboat G4. She pitchpoled off of st Bart's during race week with the owner and builder on board. I think cats and cave diving are similar in that both involve pushing to find the edge. Both can be done recreationally with reasonable safety but for some that's not enough. In cave diving there are old divers and bold divers but no old bold divers. I just say no to both now but every once in a while I get tempted.
O C Diver
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Used to be into deeper stuff, now like it easier. Did a week down in Mexico in 2015 and decided the caves down in Akumal suited me just fine. Still do some stuff in N Fl, just nothing deep anymore.
Ted
diver dave
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Akumal has nice, shallow, warm but long duration caves. I've only been once, late '80's.
Cave nirvana. I may have passed my tolerance for the 4 and 5 tank dives. Done eagles nest and diepolder 3 a few times and still consider a retirement plan that targets ft white. But there is so much discovery to do in the bahamas underground world.
O C Diver
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Done the Nest a few times. I'm at that point where I want the bottom time longer than the deco. Back to back 2 hour dives with lunch in between in Akumal with no deco is my idea of fun cave diving.
Ted
Cool so we have some old school cavers here. OC when I first saw your handle I immediately thought OC meant open circuit, then I stopped in ocean city for fuel and saw your charter boat and figured it out. Dave if you want a perfect n fl gas station send me a pm. I need to sell a Bauer mariner with securus filtration along with a 4500 psi cascade system. I think it has a little over 1000 hrs on it.
FlyWright,
I'm with you on a airplane.... but a different animal. When the engine in single quits, you ARE coming down, but may make an airport. If the engine quits in your twin engine plane you MAY come down, but really have an excellent chance of never being a statistic. However a twin engine airplane is a bunch more than a single, vs a twin boat is a bit more than a single.
With the boat, if the single engine quits, it's an inconvenience, if an engine in a twin engine boat quits, it's a nothing... just a bit more time. Neither one will cause a crash.
However, comparing a planes vs boat, once you get to turbines and diesels, they rarely quit, and a stronger argument could be made for a single.
In aviation, I've had zero turbine failures, but 5 piston failures..... huge difference.
In boating, I've never had a diesel, but I could easily take the single.... just for simplicity. In the piston boats, twins or singles they ALL have failed at some point, but mostly minor and have never required a tow service, but have been towed many times over the past 30+ years.
As for a choice, get what makes sense to your operation.
BandB,
Question..... do the wake police actually check for speed in the Erie? Never been there.
However, in FL they only look at the wake, not the speed. Also, on the west coast I've never heard or seen one stopped from going too fast in the 25 to 35 zones. No and slow wake they're getting stopped all the time.
Actually the speed limits are all about lock timing. If it says 5 mph in an area and it's two miles to the next lock, that means they're going to expect you to arrive to the next lock in 24 minutes and if you arrive sooner, you'll sit and wait. So, they're not so much to control wakes as they are timing mechanisms. The lockmasters would be the ones who would say something and i never heard them say a word to anyone about speed.
We've only been through once and it was very early in the season so not a lot of traffic. Here's the canal's write up on speed.
Canal Speed Limits are established to regulate the speeds of vessels transiting through the New York State Canal System in a way that minimizes wake damage to residential property and canal infrastructure, while ensuring that recreational and commercial boaters have a safe and enjoyable experience on the waterway.
Locks along the Canal System are set up to admit traffic through based on travel times in accordance with established limits, so exceeding the speed limit when traveling from lock to lock will not result in traveling through the Canal System more quickly. Boaters who exceed the speed limit may be subject to fines and may have their Canal pass revoked.
Speed limits established for vessels traveling through the Canal System do not necessarily apply to smaller recreational vessels using the rivers, lakes, and reservoirs which comprise the Canal System, but not traveling through the locks. Operators of these vessels should ensure compliance with all aspects of New York State Navigation Law Leaving NYS Canal's Website , as well as local ordinances and advisories, observe "No Wake" restrictions, and boat safely and courteously.
Locks along the Canal System are set up to admit traffic through based on travel times in accordance with established limits, so exceeding the speed limit when traveling from lock to lock will not result in traveling through the Canal System more quickly. Boaters who exceed the speed limit may be subject to fines and may have their Canal pass revoked.
Speed limits established for vessels traveling through the Canal System do not necessarily apply to smaller recreational vessels using the rivers, lakes, and reservoirs which comprise the Canal System, but not traveling through the locks. Operators of these vessels should ensure compliance with all aspects of New York State Navigation Law Leaving NYS Canal's Website , as well as local ordinances and advisories, observe "No Wake" restrictions, and boat safely and courteously.
BruceK
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So,replace existing single or twin boat engines with one turbine engine, problem solved.
BandB,
That make no sense, as who knows when you're going to enter the canal. After you're in there, from lock to lock it does make sense to time it, as do timed traffic lights. I have no issue with whatever, but when I get to the Erie, I prefer to know the protocol.
No, it makes sense. If it works like designed and you kept the speed, then every lock would open up for you moments before your arrival and the trip would be very smooth. We did have locks timing perfectly for us but we were often the only boat so didn't necessarily attribute it to speed. Also, a lot of people have trouble trying to hold position to wait for a lock to open and the design is to eliminate that.
We found the lockmasters to be very nice and seldom had to wait long. The process was very smooth for us, but then there were not a lot of other boats on the canal yet.
BandB,
I'd agree, it would make sense to time the locks, I thought in "entering" the canal we were talking about something else.
Now, question for you.... When you "enter" the canal, do you call the first lock and give them an ETA. How far out would you do that. Also, is there a best time of the year to do the canal or a bad time? I assume from what I hear there are a lot of locks along the canal.
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Mr. See. As has been mentioned, lockages are usually pretty straightforward. As to calling an "on demand" lock beforehand, it seems the lock tenders really don't care, for the most part, if you'll be there in 15 minutes or whenever only if you're there now. I expect for locks that operate on a timed schedule, it may be of benefit to call ahead. The norm is that commercial traffic gets precedence so you might have to wait. Some lock stations allow you to tie up to "something" if the wait will be prolonged. Others require that you basically drift around (hold station) until your turn comes up.
Different canal systems DO have different protocols but once at or through the first lock you'll know what the drill is for the rest of the system. Lock tenders are quite informative and they're probably asked the same questions dozens of times a week so don't be afraid to ask.
A while back I tried to figure out how many times the Admiral and I have negotiated locks in the last 30+ years. Best I could figure was 1000+.
Mr. See. As has been mentioned, lockages are usually pretty straightforward. As to calling an "on demand" lock beforehand, it seems the lock tenders really don't care, for the most part, if you'll be there in 15 minutes or whenever only if you're there now. I expect for locks that operate on a timed schedule, it may be of benefit to call ahead. The norm is that commercial traffic gets precedence so you might have to wait. Some lock stations allow you to tie up to "something" if the wait will be prolonged. Others require that you basically drift around (hold station) until your turn comes up.
Different canal systems DO have different protocols but once at or through the first lock you'll know what the drill is for the rest of the system. Lock tenders are quite informative and they're probably asked the same questions dozens of times a week so don't be afraid to ask.
A while back I tried to figure out how many times the Admiral and I have negotiated locks in the last 30+ years. Best I could figure was 1000+.
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Depending on your route there are as few as 29 locks and as many as 57. As to time of year, there's a challenge. From a navigation stand point the best time is later than it is from a looping standpoint This year the locks aren't opening until mid May. Since the season is short, I'd try to be there within a day or two of opening. Last year, they opened on May 1 and we started up the Hudson on May 2. Early though you may encounter more debris. I would say as early as possible but no later than May 31 so you'll not be rushed through the loop.
Here is the NY Canal site.
New York State Canals
Because you're going slow and not dealing with shipping traffic, you don't have to speak to the lockmaster as early as you might do on the TN River. Just a courtesy as you get close. Also, some sets of locks are flights, like E2-E6 where you lock five time in the course of 2 miles, so obviously they see that once you approach E2, you're going on through them all. The Erie Canal locks are all on demand, so any delays are minimal. By contrast, if you were on the TN River, with a lot of commercial vessels, you could wait 15 minutes or could wait 3 hours, so you contact well ahead to at least get in the queue.
catalinajack
Guru
Depends on the boat. I just changed the impellers on my Defever 44. Took less than 10 minutes for the engine with the pump on the outboard side.
catalinajack
Guru
When we first owned our present boat, a Defever 44, at the end of a run late in the day with winds over 20 MPH, an injector line cracked. The second engine saved the day. Without it we would have likely ended up on the rocks. Before that incident I was ambivalent on twins vs singles. Not after that experience. Yes, double the maintenance. I care not.
Reality - for certain! Well put...
Even a single boat with the best stern and bow thrusters could not handle that situation which the "spare" twin engine easily accomplished. Congrats for avoiding disaster. I feel that for safety sake of product and lives redundancy of primary units is name of the game on boats.
Nomad Willy
Guru
Catjack,
Your anchor should have kept you off the rocks.
Your anchor should have kept you off the rocks.
Eric
What if you're too close to the rocks to deploy enough scope? Or, anchor simply does not set immediately? Or, you're in a rock lined jetty inlet with strong current as well as high wind, not to mention other boats doing their best to pass through? Or... or, or??
There is no doubt... the remaining "already up and running" engine of a pair of twins can/will enable safety maneuvers that a single screw simply can't; thrusters, spare get home power... or not. Also, twins make docking a breeze!
This means nothing against single engine boats... just that the redundancy of running twins in hairy, engine breakdown circumstances can easily save the day.
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Mr. nw. "...Your anchor should have kept you off the rocks. " You, of all people, should know Mr. cj. has the wrong anchor!
Mr. nw. "...Your anchor should have kept you off the rocks. " You, of all people, should know Mr. cj. has the wrong anchor!
psneeld
Guru
I have had 2 injector line develop leaks, one pin hole, one a bend Crack. First leak proceeded 2 hrs to port, second, one hr to port.
I have a single Lehman.
Both repaired in an hr with on board spares.
First was on ICW, pouring rain, tornado watch.
Sure I have had a single quit in not so bad spots 3 times in nearly 15,000 trawler miles and probably a couple in 5000 hrs in an assistance tow boat....let alone countless other singles.
Part of driving one is to avoid critical situations or keep it going till clear.
I have a single Lehman.
Both repaired in an hr with on board spares.
First was on ICW, pouring rain, tornado watch.
Sure I have had a single quit in not so bad spots 3 times in nearly 15,000 trawler miles and probably a couple in 5000 hrs in an assistance tow boat....let alone countless other singles.
Part of driving one is to avoid critical situations or keep it going till clear.
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Sealife
Guru
I have twins in my KK42, one of them is in parts though
Seems to be the difference, with a single maintenance and observation for proactive repairs is paramount. Seems with twins, not so much. Being in the mechanical field for over 20 years, failures always give warnings if you know what to look for.
Of course at this point in my trip, staring at over 700nm of open water between Cartagena and Puerto Rico with only a single (plus parts) I have to get on Richard Bost's (dauntless) wagon and hope for the best.
Seems to be the difference, with a single maintenance and observation for proactive repairs is paramount. Seems with twins, not so much. Being in the mechanical field for over 20 years, failures always give warnings if you know what to look for.
Of course at this point in my trip, staring at over 700nm of open water between Cartagena and Puerto Rico with only a single (plus parts) I have to get on Richard Bost's (dauntless) wagon and hope for the best.
