Bonding cable size

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FlyWright

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I'm planning to replace some old solid :)eek:) bonding wire on my boat with tinned, stranded green marine cable. My plan is to use 10 AWG green wire from Genuine Dealz.

Does this sound about the right size? Another section of bonding cable is a braided non-insulated strap like this. It looks like it's in very good shape. Is this proper and sufficient?

PRF-40142_ml.jpg
 
Boat builder's usually use #8 insulated green wire and maybe ABYC specifies this as well. Maybe more for corrosion allowance as I can't imagine much current flowing through the bonding wire even if there is a DC fault to the bilge.

David
 
When we redid the engine room, I was told a minimum of 8 awg and 6 awg for lightning/bonding. This came from 2 ABYC electrical techs.
 
I'm planning to replace some old solid :)eek:) bonding wire on my boat with tinned, stranded green marine cable. My plan is to use 10 AWG green wire from Genuine Dealz.

Does this sound about the right size? Another section of bonding cable is a braided non-insulated strap like this. It looks like it's in very good shape. Is this proper and sufficient?

PRF-40142_ml.jpg

Hey, Al. I'm just finishing replacing all the bonding on Stella. The ABYC-certified electrician I'm using told me nothing smaller than #8 and bigger is fine. (I used 6 as the "trunk of the tree" and 8 for the "branches."

What is the braided strap made of? If copper, and you have clean connections that can be bolted on, it may be fine--again connections matter. My boat has a common copper strip running the length of the ER that all the nearby through hulls bond to. ABYC requires threaded connections into that strip or nuts and machine screws compressing the connection the the strip. Self-tapping screws are not approved for good reason--metal and fiberglass expand/contract at different rates and many of the self-tapped screws that penetrated both on my boat were loose.

I would not bond to a common bus--braided or solid--that is made of steel. Steel has a small fraction of the conductivity of copper and the whole point of the bonding system is to offer minimal resistance between the metals you want to protect and the sacrificial anodes.

FWIW, I also used heavy duty lugs with heat shrink for the connections. The large 3/4-inch studs on the struts were a problem since I couldn't find lugs for #8 wire and 3/4" holes. So, I made some copper plates, drilled them to fit both the studs and the 1/4" machine screws connecting the bonding wire. Everything will get a spray of Boshield once tightened.



Steve D'Antonio can give you more authoritative guidance, but this is the approach I'm taking. Good luck!
 
I believe #8 or larger is what is recommended and my guess is that it's the lower resistance rather than current carrying capacity that is the concern here.
 
Thanks, guys! 8AWG it is!!

Angus, I'm not sure what the braided strap is made of. I'll have to take a closer look and measure it all. I'm thinking I may just rip out all of the old and replace it all with new #8.

I'll also pay attention to the stud sizes so I get the right lugs. I guess it's time to invest in a "proper" crimper. The hydraulic one I had been using from Harbor Fright gets terrible reviews from CMS for improper lug sizing.

Thanks for the ideas and advice, fellas!

Cheers!
 
If I remember correctly it is 8AWG minimum and 6AWG minimum if the bonding is used for lightning protection too.
 
Thanks, guys! 8AWG it is!!

Angus, I'm not sure what the braided strap is made of. I'll have to take a closer look and measure it all. I'm thinking I may just rip out all of the old and replace it all with new #8.

I'll also pay attention to the stud sizes so I get the right lugs. I guess it's time to invest in a "proper" crimper. The hydraulic one I had been using from Harbor Fright gets terrible reviews from CMS for improper lug sizing.

Thanks for the ideas and advice, fellas!

Cheers!

Al, again FWIW, I use FTZ heavy duty lugs and an FTZ crimper. Bought it all from Bay Marine Supply (out on your coast, I believe) because they had the best selection and price I could find. I bought one of their more expensive crimpers because I was working with 4/0. They make good crimpers for smaller wire as well. No affiliation other than the checks I wrote.

Search results for: 'ftz crimper'
 
Thanks, guys! 8AWG it is!!

Angus, I'm not sure what the braided strap is made of. I'll have to take a closer look and measure it all. I'm thinking I may just rip out all of the old and replace it all with new #8.

I'll also pay attention to the stud sizes so I get the right lugs. I guess it's time to invest in a "proper" crimper. The hydraulic one I had been using from Harbor Fright gets terrible reviews from CMS for improper lug sizing.

Thanks for the ideas and advice, fellas!

Cheers!

You can order the wire and lugs (terminals) from genuinedealz and for a modest fee. they will install the terminals for you. That would be easier and far less expensive than buying a quality crimper.
 
Thanks, guys! Larry, I'll take a look at the sister site.

I think you're right...if I have all the lengths and lug sizes correct on the order. Those real crimpers are not cheap!

It just dawned on me that I might be able to borrow a quality crimper for a few days from my aircraft mechanic friends. That would allow me some flexibility in ordering parts and making the connections as I go along.

I will order the lugs and shrink tubing needed when I order the cable.

Is the proper test of continuity just a simple zero ohm measurement with the DVM?
 
You will usually not get a zero reading with a sensitive meter because you will be measuring the resistance of the leads and the connections. Touch the leads together and see what you get. It will probably be a fraction of an ohm. "Continuity" will be a little more than that reading depending on the length and size of the wires.
 
Also, consider the choice for bolts that could sustain a lightning current. Realize that stainless steel has about 1/42 the conductivity of pure copper. I replaced the 1/2" bolts in my transom zinc with silicon bronze. SB is still a few times worse than pure copper, but not 42x worse.
Braid is a tough sell for me on a boat. Rarely for bonding that solid strap copper (fixed surfaces) or AWG6/8 in THHN green (to engines) is not long lasting.
 
Anyone ever see the lightning damage to a boat?

Anyone think 8 ga wire and 1/2 inch stainless or bronze bolts are going to matter?

Sure the EM pulse can be handled by little stuff...but a hit or spike?....kiss your electrical and electronics goodbye.
 
Guess I would not worry about lightning on a power boat. If hit it will destroy all the wiring between it and the bonding. Sailboat---- different matter but there the only bonding that is important is between the mast and the keel for lightning. A bolt of lightning can produce thousands of amperes creating huge voltage drops across even the larger wire sizes.

Wire size... I think the larger diameter wires were selected mainly for mechanical strength than for their resistance.
 
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Plenty of sailboats have sunk because lightning blew a hole thru the hull jumping from the mast bottom to the water.
 
Anyone ever see the lightning damage to a boat?

Anyone think 8 ga wire and 1/2 inch stainless or bronze bolts are going to matter?

Sure the EM pulse can be handled by little stuff...but a hit or spike?....kiss your electrical and electronics goodbye.



RIGHT ON!!!:thumb:
 
A bolt of lightning can produce thousands of amperes creating huge voltage drops across even the larger wire sizes.

Plenty of sailboats have sunk because lightning blew a hole thru the hull jumping from the mast bottom to the water.

Not surprised. Had the misfortune in my sailboat which destroyed my electronics
 
Plenty of sailboats have sunk because lightning blew a hole thru the hull jumping from the mast bottom to the water.

True; I've also read where salt water strikes are less damaging than fresh water strikes. Maybe due to less explosive boiling of the water at the high current density area.
 
When I redid my Grand Banks, I used bus bars and interconnected them so that the weren't too many connections piled up. My experience was that you needed to make the connections as you went along to make it neat. Meter each connection as you go. I ended up using about 4 Blue Sea bars including a shaft brush and terminated in a transom zinc. The worst connection was at the transom zinc - stainless sucks as a conductor and I really like the idea of bronze bolts there.
 
Guess I would not worry about lightning on a power boat. If hit it will destroy all the wiring between it and the bonding.

Unfortunately, this attitude is shared by the manufacturers of the electronic equipment on most boats.
My current line of work is hardening electrical substation electronics from surges and lightning strikes. I routinely expose sensitive electronic ciruits to direct injections of 2 to 5kV pulses. Utilities and their customers don't care to loose power if even a direct strike occurs in the switchyard. In my desk are many, many types of devices that absorb, reroute, or otherwise mitigate what I will call "very close strikes". Yes, it is possible to take a hit that will melt steel cabinents. Most direct strikes won't do that.

Other stories: An airliner receives, on average, one direct strike per year. Many are now fly by wire, and have fundamentally higher susceptability to surges. They survive, in no part due to engineeering design.

I have a radio system at home. My antenna took a direct strike about 2 years ago. The radio was connected, turned off. Zero radio damage, although the antenna itself melted one conductor and I had a pure plastic insulator explode due to trapped water from the rain. Many ground rods, even in clay, and suitable grounding straps helped tremendously. Cell sites do similar treatment.

My message is simple. It is possible to harden boat electronics. Don't accept devices like electronic diesels unless they are surge hardened. These manufacturers, I believe, just don't care.
 
ABYC calls for #8 AWG. The reason is not current carrying bu structural. They know that these cables will be in the lowest portion of the hull and will be stepped on and therefor physical strength is the controlling factor. The braided straps are not permitted by ABYC. I was ABYC tech VP 11 years.
 
ABYC calls for #8 AWG. The reason is not current carrying bu structural. They know that these cables will be in the lowest portion of the hull and will be stepped on and therefor physical strength is the controlling factor. The braided straps are not permitted by ABYC. I was ABYC tech VP 11 years.
Is the copper foil of old still used/OK for the backbone?

I would think it would be the connections to it that are now the issue with using it.
 
Regarding lightning protection,
I dock with lots of sailboats nearby.
However, out fishing, you never know . I would imagine being up on plane getting out of there, but then my main mag plate would be high and 'dry'.
That infers question 1. Is it grounded? #2 is where is the top target area of the lighning wire -hooked to a rod?
 
I will be in the bilge today so will check replies later.
Thanks in advance!
 
My Egg Harbor was built with a bronze rectangular ground buss bar 1/4 thick by 3/4 wide by 15 feet?, running along the keel to which bonding wires are run from all metal fittings and fuel tanks. Bolts were drilled into the bar to attach on the wires. OEM used solid copper 10 gauge insulated wires. No wires were broken, all insulation still intact. All ring ends still ok. All ok even being from 1970. Solid bonding wires must have not been considered a problem in the old days. Frankly water has a harder time seeping along a smooth round wire than a multistranded wire inside of the insulation, less wicking. And even if it does get wet, being a solid wire with much greater size of the individual strand, so less corrosive possibility than with many strands wicking water. I really think such a wire is better as a bonding wire than a multistrand wire.

Nowhere can you step on them to damage them. Being a wood boat it has large frames- floors every 9 inches which have bonding wires running under these floors where they intersect to the keel, which in a house you would call joists.
I went through all of them when I rebuilt the hull in 2006. Some I need to take apart and clean as they are turned green the ones attaching to the shaft logs. Probably need to clean and grease with marine grease. Marine grease is water resistant, regular grease water slowly but steadily dissolves the grease. In the past, I noticed using regular greases, the grease eventually disappears and certainly does not prevent corrosion when salt water gets things wet..

Being wood hull, I disconnected all bonding wires to water through hulls as otherwise delignification has been a proven problem with wood boats. I left everything else connected.

When I rebuilt the hull, I moved the engine raw water thru-hulls to a new location, and the wood under there was a mess, but easily fixed with a steel brush, wood backing block, round wood plug, and polyurethane goo and screws.
 
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There is a lot written about lightning and boats, but so little of it seems conclusive on how to avoid or distribute a stike....so I really don't give it much thought/worry, but I avidly read about it in case there is a breakthough.

After the post on hardening electronics, other than putting them in Faraday cage like protection, microwaves, etc....I would be interested in how to do it for each piece if possible.
 
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Is the copper foil of old still used/OK for the backbone? I would think it would be the connections to it that are now the issue with using it.

The copper foil should still be fine. The goal is make it strong enough that it does not get broken when stepped on or kicked.
 
I'm planning to replace some old solid :)eek:) bonding wire on my boat with tinned, stranded green marine cable. My plan is to use 10 AWG green wire from Genuine Dealz.

Does this sound about the right size? Another section of bonding cable is a braided non-insulated strap like this. It looks like it's in very good shape. Is this proper and sufficient?

PRF-40142_ml.jpg

I think you might want to take a look at this before you do anything to your system. HTH JD Understanding The Green Ground Wire - BoatUS Magazine
 

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