Build Quality Poll

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I'm surprised no one has jumped in with at least a partial rating of this list. FYI, I only listed boats that were for sale on the west coast. So if your favorite east cost brand is missing or European brand is missing, that is why. Please add your brand and rate it in comparison to other brands you are familiar with. :) I am not familiar with most brands, but i will post my limited opinion as well.
 
Hatteras 8
Seahorse Marine
Selene 7
Offshore
Krogen 8
Mckinna
Meridian
Navigator
Sea Ray
Bayliner 6
American Tug 8
Nordic Tug 7
Grand Banks
Nordhavn
Symbol
Ocean Alexander
Bertram
Mediterranean
Eagle
Viking
Silverton
Elling
Hampton
Integrity
Fleming

These observations are from owning only one brand and physically inspecting other boats I have been on that I have been interested in purchasing. Im really curious where you all think many of the other brands fall in relation to the brands I am familiar with.
 
Hatteras - 9
Seahorse Marine - 8
Selene - 5
Offshore - NR
Krogen - 7
Mckinna - 7
Meridian - 4
Navigator - NR
Sea Ray - 5
Bayliner - 7
American Tug - 7
Nordic Tug - 7
Grand Banks - 5
Nordhavn - 7
Symbol - NR
Ocean Alexander - 5
Bertram - 3
Mediterranean - NR
Eagle - NR
Viking - 9
Silverton - 4
Elling - 6
Hampton - 5
Integrity - NR
Fleming - 10

Interesting. While selene seems to command a high price in teh used market, your rating is only 5, while you have Seahorse rated at 8, but commands a much lower price on eh used market (even for fiberglass hulls).
 
BSA maybe? His buddy had a beemer.

As I recall it was a Honda Superhawk of about 305cc.

Believe me - nobody ever mentions BSA and "quality" in the same sentence.

I have two BSAs and two spare motors. And I'm not afraid to use them.
 
Believe me - nobody ever mentions BSA and "quality" in the same sentence.

I have two BSAs and two spare motors. And I'm not afraid to use them.


Had a friend's BSA spew its transmission all over the road underneath me, once...

Got my attention, that did!

And then of course I coasted to a stop...

-Chris
 
I'm surprised no one has jumped in with at least a partial rating of this list. FYI, I only listed boats that were for sale on the west coast. So if your favorite east cost brand is missing or European brand is missing, that is why. Please add your brand and rate it in comparison to other brands you are familiar with. :) I am not familiar with most brands, but i will post my limited opinion as well.

Can't speak to almost all of those, given no long-term exposure. Viewing at a boat show or even a ride or two on a friend's boat... not enough for me to judge,

I can say Mainship, Wellcraft, and Silverton, have all been "pretty good" -- certainly "good enough" to meet our requirements, at least the specific models we've owned -- but I can't provide any hands-on comparison to others on the list.


OK, if current Nordhavn, Hatteras, Vikings, and Flemings are 10s or 11s... my "pretty good" based on the actual boats I've been familiar with for Mainship and Silverton would be 7 (or a high 6 or so), and Wellcraft could be a 6. Actually, the latter was simply less "fancy" (no interior wood, either) so the rating addresses more than just the idea of build quality.

Individual boats from each marque may rate slightly lower...

And I don't really know so much first-hand about Nordhavn, Hatteras, Viking, or Fleming models... so the hypothetical 10 (or 11) is purely theoretical, for me.

-Chris
 
Interesting. While selene seems to command a high price in teh used market, your rating is only 5, while you have Seahorse rated at 8, but commands a much lower price on eh used market (even for fiberglass hulls).

I think based on other comments and information I didn't know at the time, I rated Seahorse too high. I still think of Selene as being a good, solid boat, but a step below some others. Still I wouldn't have been uncomfortable rating them a 6.

My ratings for Seahorse were only based on steel hulls and really based on Diesel Duck and Coot. I'm only aware of the one incident pointed out here, but even based on that I'd lower them to a 6 or 7 perhaps.

The lower price doesn't surprise me at all on the used market. First, they're priced fairly low when new. Then people just don't want steel in that size boat, so they've got a limited market.

The quality of most boats is good. There are very few boats built that you need to worry about delamination or other major problems. The biggest differences are design (including sea states designed for), quality of equipment and installation of equipment, and then things like tendency to leak in various areas whether from above or outside.

Boats have been around long enough that you don't see bad hulls, bad designs in that respect. You may see someone purchasing a boat designed for coastal cruising and disappointed it's not build for ocean going.

Quality of equipment, most use the same of fairly equal suppliers. However, they may shortcut on things like hoses and tanks. They may also do it on teak and other woods, going thinner than desired. Some build interiors that perhaps we wouldn't like at all but I see that as just an issue of taste, not quality. Now, back on installation of equipment, I'll give a couple of examples where that comes into play. I do not like Nordhavn's commissioning system. It takes way too long and seems to be fraught with potential issues. I see buyers taking the entire first year getting it all properly sorted. I would probably raise my Sea Ray number slightly. I like Sea Ray. However, I've seen buyers of their L series with punch lists and post purchase issues that are just way too long. We were a potential buyer until uncovering those issues. That doesn't impact the tried and true Sundancer series, but might or might not impact some of the new models, such as the fly versions.

Not on the list, but a boat that gets more discussion as to quality than any I know is Azimut. A lot of haters. Confusing. European buyers are very happy. US buyers are driven insane by things like wiring of the electronics and it appears to be on some boats built in Italy and some from Brazil. Yes, Azumut builds in Brazil for this market too. However, their hull is fine. Part of the US issue is that all warranty is handled through Marine Max. They act as the dealer and the manufacturer's representative, and people struggle to get all the issues fixed. I'd give them a "don't touch" score in the US but that basic boat is fine.

In many ways, we're not just rating quality of build, but quality of the total experience. There's one boat that many owners really like but if you put it on the list, it would get a zero from me in terms of buying it new because I just don't trust them. On the other hand, a used one can be surveyed and it is what it is, but you're not putting money at risk for a long build period.

It's interesting too to see things that influence our ratings. Richard's trips on Dauntless have to impact how one views KK. All those cruising the world on Nordhavn surely influences opinion, although the Atlantic Crossing they did lowered my opinion of them. Probably why they haven't repeated. Part of it is size as those cruising the world are most often 60' and above and the ones on the Crossing were largely smaller, but also Nordhavn was having issues at that time with stabilizers. Reading Tony Fleming's cruise blogs certainly impacts how I feel about Fleming.
 
Could you assign a 1 to 10 rating of those manufacturers to see where you think they stand in relation to each other?

That's a tough one, this is undeniably quite subjective, but here goes.

Hinckley - 10
MJM - 10
Sabre/Sabreline - 8
Bruckmann - 8
Back Cove - 6

:hide:
 
That's a tough one, this is undeniably quite subjective, but here goes.

Hinckley - 10
MJM - 10
Sabre/Sabreline - 8
Bruckmann - 8
Back Cove - 6

:hide:

Interesting. You grade on a higher curve than I do. I can't grade MJMor Bruckman, but I'd give Hinckley and 8, Saber a 7, Back Cove a 6.

I'll tell you something that I think pushes Hinckely up a grade for East Coast buyers is all their service centers.
 
I have little experience with the whole group of boats you noted here and with owning two powerboats older than your criteria. I will tell you that Bayliners are build very well as are Symbols. I could more easily rate sailboats. But, that wasn't the question here...

I can't say enough about the build quality of our 1986 Symbol. It was put together with quality parts that are, to this day, easy to find and replace if needed.

The 1993 Bayliner had a few build issues, but was easy to maintain and repair as any boat I have had. It was easy to fix the build issues so they hopefully won't be an issue down the road, but the minor issues shouldn't have been there in the first place.
 
Interesting. You grade on a higher curve than I do. I can't grade MJMor Bruckman, but I'd give Hinckley and 8, Saber a 7, Back Cove a 6.

I'll tell you something that I think pushes Hinckely up a grade for East Coast buyers is all their service centers.

It's really hard for me to be objective as I grew up with a Hinckley Pilot 35 and later a Bermuda 40 MkIII in our family. We watched the B-40 being built in Southwest Harbor, so I still have fond memories that surely cloud my vision somewhat.

MJM's on the other hand are spectacular in design, advanced materials and particularly performance and economy. They are built to ISO category B Offshore for the smaller models, or A Ocean for the 40 and 50. While they have a decidedly 'down-east' flavor, they are absolutely state of the art.

IMHO, the Hinckley's are more pleasing to the eye though:socool:
 
OK, if current Nordhavn, Hatteras, Vikings, and Flemings are 10s or 11s... my "pretty good" based on the actual boats I've been familiar with for Mainship and Silverton would be 7 (or a high 6 or so), and Wellcraft could be a 6. Actually, the latter was simply less "fancy" (no interior wood, either) so the rating addresses more than just the idea of build quality.

Individual boats from each marque may rate slightly lower...

And I don't really know so much first-hand about Nordhavn, Hatteras, Viking, or Fleming models... so the hypothetical 10 (or 11) is purely theoretical, for me.


Thinking about this some more...

I'd forgotten about Hinckley; guess I'd put them in that hypothetical 10 (or 11) bracket, too.

But this is just from reading about these brands. And sometimes being able to compare what I read about to what I've got.

Unfortunately, most of the reading is from the "free subscription" boating magazines -- aimed at selling me a thousand foot boat -- so not perfectly objective sources. And most of the comparison ends up simply being about design issues (and size matters), not build issues.

For example, we don't have a full-beam master. We'd like a full-beam master. Boats with full-beam masters may (therefore) be "better" than ours.

Well... maybe, maybe not. Certainly might be for overall space. But that doesn't necessarily mean build quality of that boat with a full-beam master is better than our current boat. Also, the most likely reason we don't already have a full-beam master is 'cause our current boat (the one we can afford) isn't large enough; we'd need probably 52' or more LOA to make it happen. Again, not a build quality issue, just a wallet issue.

So to speak...

-Chris
 
Sea Ray...Silverton....Bayliner....meridian?....and no Carver??? I am not saying Carver belongs on any list but if you include those 4 then it should be in the mix...:)
 
Sea Ray...Silverton....Bayliner....meridian?....and no Carver??? I am not saying Carver belongs on any list but if you include those 4 then it should be in the mix...:)

Carver is a hard one for me to rate. Carver now or then? Carver has been through so many twists and turns from the bankruptcy of Genmar to the line being drastically reduced as was their sister, Marquis, to now the line back to 6 models. Some people caught in the period of the bankruptcy were screwed badly with suddenly no warranty. I've heard still of so many problems getting support on ironing out issues on new boats. So, I couldn't recommend new Carvers and question those of the last ten years but before that I'm very much a Carver fan and think they can be an excellent choice. On balance I think of the brand as a 5 but it's really more like a 3 and a 7 averaged.
 
Carver is a hard one for me to rate. Carver now or then? Carver has been through so many twists and turns from the bankruptcy of Genmar to the line being drastically reduced as was their sister, Marquis, to now the line back to 6 models. Some people caught in the period of the bankruptcy were screwed badly with suddenly no warranty. I've heard still of so many problems getting support on ironing out issues on new boats. So, I couldn't recommend new Carvers and question those of the last ten years but before that I'm very much a Carver fan and think they can be an excellent choice. On balance I think of the brand as a 5 but it's really more like a 3 and a 7 averaged.

And none of that has to do with build quality....but I do appreciate your opinion/knowledge on the issue. I Also agree with you. My current boat is not a bad boat. I went from a 2004 Mainship to this 2001 Carver. And I will say the Carver is significantly better built. And better engineered. ANd better supported....even now. When Mainship went Tango Uniform, I am sure it left owners stranded in the same manner. I know somewhat because I owned my boat through all of that. And it went from having support to not having support....nobody to call. I do think the vintage of my boat is about the peak of their hayday(2001). I will also say that every time I call Carver with a question or searching for parts, they always produce...mostly pointing me in the right direction but still, I have never come up empty.

With all that said, I "lust"(if that is possible over a Carver) over the 445 model. It is an update of the 440...which was an update of the venerable 4207. The 445 only lasted 2 years because it was quickly followed by the 455/456...which is when they started to get weird(er) looking. Anyway, Carver is a very comfortable cruiseable boat that will not break the bank. And again, I am right there with you. I know barely anything about the 2005 and up vintage....other than I don't like the way they look. And they are all powered by Volvos. The one thing I have tremendous respect for Sea Ray is they have always been Cummins or Cat powered(in the post Detroit era).

I have always thought I needed a Krogen or a Nordhavn or Selene to cruise comfortably. If I work hard and save hard, I could likely afford one of those. But I will not get one unless my desire is to cross oceans. Otherwise, I will go something a little more in the budget/value range. The 445 nails it for me. And Carver completely erases the issue of aft line handling(on ACMYs) with their molded swim platforms and molded in steps to get you to that platform. My swim platform is actually part of the hull....drives my yard guy crazy. I just point to the side of the boat where it says "356" and tell him he can charge me for 35.6 feet if he wants...hahaha!!!!

If you really want to know the answer to this "survey", ask someone who works on boats for a living. I am talking about people that are climbing thru the bilges.
 
And none of that has to do with build quality....but I do appreciate your opinion/knowledge on the issue. I Also agree with you. My current boat is not a bad boat. .

I include all systems working properly as part of build quality. To me, build quality is more than hull or structure. I will also say as companies go through serious financial problems, the vast majority of the time quality slips and Carver was, in my opinion, no exception in that regard. Changing direction, switching models also presents new learning curves. That said, I would rate Carver's in the period yours was built, very high and note my 7's are equal to 10's by some as I grade against perfection. Now, the years of the biggest issues, they sold very few boats so not a lot of those out there.

Not to put KK's or Nordhavn's or any others down, but there are far more happy owners out there enjoying Mainship, Bayliner, Carver, and Sea Ray. You ask their owners and you'll get overwhelmingly positive reactions and to me that's the key. Are owners satisfied? If they are, I say it's a good boat. Our Sunseeker is perfect for the way we use it, so we're happy with it, but it is not any better built than those four boats. It's capable of handling rougher water than a smaller boat. But construction isn't superior in my mind. I'd rate Hatteras build higher any day. Yet, there wasn't a Hatteras that met our needs as well.

On the whole, there are very few poorly built boats from simply hull and structure point of view.
 
I include all systems working properly as part of build quality. To me, build quality is more than hull or structure. I will also say as companies go through serious financial problems, the vast majority of the time quality slips and Carver was, in my opinion, no exception in that regard. Changing direction, switching models also presents new learning curves. That said, I would rate Carver's in the period yours was built, very high and note my 7's are equal to 10's by some as I grade against perfection. Now, the years of the biggest issues, they sold very few boats so not a lot of those out there.

Not to put KK's or Nordhavn's or any others down, but there are far more happy owners out there enjoying Mainship, Bayliner, Carver, and Sea Ray. You ask their owners and you'll get overwhelmingly positive reactions and to me that's the key. Are owners satisfied? If they are, I say it's a good boat. Our Sunseeker is perfect for the way we use it, so we're happy with it, but it is not any better built than those four boats. It's capable of handling rougher water than a smaller boat. But construction isn't superior in my mind. I'd rate Hatteras build higher any day. Yet, there wasn't a Hatteras that met our needs as well.

On the whole, there are very few poorly built boats from simply hull and structure point of view.

I cannot disagree with anything there. I do like the way Hatteras builds boats too. I guess the downfall is nothing they build is terribly fast. They always build heavily and therefore performance suffers. And I know y'all like speed.
 
As I recall it was a Honda Superhawk of about 305cc.

Believe me - nobody ever mentions BSA and "quality" in the same sentence.

I have two BSAs and two spare motors. And I'm not afraid to use them.
Well that makes sense. I recall the manufacturer was never mentioned in the book, but John's BMW was. I was going from memory based on the cover of my old ratty paperback version. Looked like a BSA to me.

As an ex-owner of a Triumph Bonneville, I get it. The only thing reliable about that bike was its inability to start. I'd go out and kick it over until exhausted or frustrated. Stupid Amal carburetor. Couldn't get it to work in Hawaii. This was long before the internet and readily available information. That bike probably saved my life since I barely rode it.
 
The difficulty with the OP's question is that most companies went through many changes over the last decades. Essentially everything changed not always for the better. The luxury tax destroyed some companies and put design changes on hold for years. After the tax was repealed it took years for new designs and production methods to be implemented.
IMO even Hatteras went through so many changes in ownership that the only thing sure to be in common over the years is the spelling of the brand name.

I just dont think the question can be intelligently answered because people are mostly aware of reputation. Over many decades of boating most people that I have met have been happy with their boats.
 
IMO even Hatteras went through so many changes in ownership that the only thing sure to be in common over the years is the spelling of the brand name.

Most of the time I see the ownership changes accompanied by other changes. In the case of the quality of Hatteras builds I think they did an amazingly consistent job from Genmar to Brunswick to Versa.
 
In many cases an older broker will have a list of which companies made OK boats between bankrupcys.

They earn their commission by steering you from the garbage .
 
It seems that while the effort is admirable, the data is not worth much, other than to raise discussion. I have been on maybe four of the boats listed, and even then, not long enough to ascertain qualitatively which is best. And because quality can vary from model to model, year to year, it would be hard to discuss intelligently without specifying.

As said in other threads, when buying a boat, how it was maintained is probably more important than brand and model.

I can tell you that I think the quality of the my OA 456 is good, other than the gelcoat. I am rectifying that now with a new awlgrip paint job. The glass is in great condition, but the company seemed to have put kindergarteners in charge of mixing the gelcoat and first graders in charge of spraying. Of course, I knew this when I boat the boat and calculated the price of a paint job into the price.

I know others who have OAs and have zero issues with gelcoat. I just got lucky. Lucky, you might ask? I was able to buy a lot more boat for a lot less money and turn it into a fantastic looking and running boat that exactly meets my needs.

I think we could have more fun and generate more excitement by rank-ordering our favorite anchors - or bottom paint.

I suspect that if you want to generate a 1-n list, you could merely start at the top with the most expensive and work your way down. Correlate that with rates of depreciation and you might get at the issue.

Gordon


Gordon
 
the data is not worth much, other than to raise discussion.

I think we could have more fun and generate more excitement by rank-ordering our favorite anchors - or bottom paint.

The OP's intent was raising discussion. This is a discussion forum. There was no "data."

I think it was an interesting discussion. You may find anchors more fun but I find them having been discussed ad nauseum and thought this was an interesting attempt by the OP at a little different discussion.
 

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