Cell & Wifi Boosters Revisited

Jeffrey S said:

I have a weBoost 4Gx so I'm quite familiar with their product line.

The new Digital Antenna Bullet (not to be confused with the Ubiquiti Bullet WiFi modem) is a pretty nice looking product. It's expensive. I had to laugh at the pdf specification sheet. For gain they showed 4-9Bi which is an obvious typo. It most likely should be 4-dBi. Somehow the "d" got flipped around to a 9. That antenna is clearly a 4 dB antenna just like I described in a previous posting about most cellular antennas. The design looks good and it appears to be wicked rugged. I do like Digital Antenna antennas too.

That Bullet antenna would replace the outside antenna although I'd try the weBoost outside antenna first since it comes with the product. You'd still need some type of connectivity between the iPad and the amplifier. I don't know a way to do that other than with the weBoost inside antenna. There's no antenna jack on the iPad (which could be used to bypass the inside antenna). The whole thing just isn't going to work well again, because of inside/outside separation issues.

There's also no large cradle for iPads/tablets. The way we solved that on aCappella was to put a phone or MiFi (depending on the cellular network we're using) into the cradle and then use the iPad over WiFi to that amp'd device.

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I see the antenna with the booster is small. That's why I'm interested in the Bullet. I also am a fan of Digital Antenna.
Don't want a misunderstanding on the connection from phone to booster. I have a Velcro pad that attaches to the back of the phone. This way you can talk easily without using encumbrances of the cradle.

Bigsalmonfish said:

Don't want a misunderstanding on the connection from phone to booster. I have a Velcro pad that attaches to the back of the phone. This way you can talk easily without using encumbrances of the cradle.

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I don't understand what that means. You need to have some type of radio transmission between the phone and the amp. That happens wirelessly with an inside antenna (which won't work) or a cradle that the phone attaches into.

Jeffrey S said:

I have a weBoost 4Gx so I'm quite familiar with their product line.

The new Digital Antenna Bullet (not to be confused with the Ubiquiti Bullet WiFi modem) is a pretty nice looking product. It's expensive. I had to laugh at the pdf specification sheet. For gain they showed 4-9Bi which is an obvious typo. It most likely should be 4-dBi. Somehow the "d" got flipped around to a 9. That antenna is clearly a 4 dB antenna just like I described in a previous posting about most cellular antennas. The design looks good and it appears to be wicked rugged. I do like Digital Antenna antennas too.

That Bullet antenna would replace the outside antenna although I'd try the weBoost outside antenna first since it comes with the product. You'd still need some type of connectivity between the iPad and the amplifier. I don't know a way to do that other than with the weBoost inside antenna. There's no antenna jack on the iPad (which could be used to bypass the inside antenna). The whole thing just isn't going to work well again, because of inside/outside separation issues.

There's also no large cradle for iPads/tablets. The way we solved that on aCappella was to put a phone or MiFi (depending on the cellular network we're using) into the cradle and then use the iPad over WiFi to that amp'd device.

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Would it be possible to put the verizon hotspot in the cradle, then connect your phones using the hotspot wifi? Then use voip for phone service

Ka_sea_ta said:

Would it be possible to put the verizon hotspot in the cradle, then connect your phones using the hotspot wifi? Then use voip for phone service

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Sure. We had a normal Verizon Jetpack MiFi that we put in the cradle and everything else connected over WiFi to it.

For the Bahamas, we kept an old unlocked AT&T iPhone. A BTC SIM in that lived in the cradle and then everything used that over WiFi. Skype worked fine. We used that for 16 weeks last winter and had high-speed internet throughout the Berry Islands and Exumas - we weren't a moment without connectivity. Every between Nassau and Highborne Cay (35 nm) we had high-speed connectivity - we weren't expecting that.

Jeffrey S said:

Sure. We had a normal Verizon Jetpack MiFi that we put in the cradle and everything else connected over WiFi to it.

For the Bahamas, we kept an old unlocked AT&T iPhone. A BTC SIM in that lived in the cradle and then everything used that over WiFi. Skype worked fine. We used that for 16 weeks last winter and had high-speed internet throughout the Berry Islands and Exumas - we weren't a moment without connectivity. Every between Nassau and Highborne Cay (35 nm) we had high-speed connectivity - we weren't expecting that.

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Great I've been struggling with the best way to go... seemed like a elegant solution just wanted to make sure Thanks

Jeffery S: Do you think that there would be any problem using a cradle with the WeBoost 4GM instead of the inside antenna? I'm getting this dialed down for what direction I want to go. Looks like I'm replacing my older Digital Antenna (think its a 2-3 band antenna) with the Bullet and going with the WeBoost 4G-M. I'm trying to avoid the inside antenna separation issues with a cradle. Boat is 65 foot and wood

Bigsalmonfish said:

Jeffery S: Do you think that there would be any problem using a cradle with the WeBoost 4GM instead of the inside antenna?

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Yeah, that should work. I'm not sure if Wilson produces a compatible cradle though. That was exactly how I used their amp in the 2008 era. It was their normal amp and I used a cradle for the device connection.

Today, their weBoost cradle product has the cradle built in so most people go that way especially since it's $300 less expensive. You should check to see if Wilson has a compatible cradle though - that would actually help a lot of people who previously installed the wireless amp but found it didn't work.

Jeffrey S said:

Yeah, that should work. I'm not sure if Wilson produces a compatible cradle though. That was exactly how I used their amp in the 2008 era. It was their normal amp and I used a cradle for the device connection.

Today, their weBoost cradle product has the cradle built in so most people go that way especially since it's $300 less expensive. You should check to see if Wilson has a compatible cradle though - that would actually help a lot of people who previously installed the wireless amp but found it didn't work.

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I called Wilson and they said that my "pad" would work. They are $25 bucks on eBay so I bought another to have. They also said that the "Bullet" would work well with what I am considering.

For anyone thinking of a new/upgraded phone amp I suggest you do your own research. CelFi is a USA company, with a number of products that have 100db performance that have been used in a range of environments. Talking to them and getting feedback from users or people who have actually tested their products ought to be possible.
Cel-Fi

According to the Cel-Fi Wave app I am currently able to pick up 5 bars (3G) of 1 bar (4G) from the service provider. The GO is showing boost of 5 (out of 10). An interesting aspect of the app is that it allows you to test various indoor antenna locations to help optimise your setup. I'll experiment with that later today. Two reasons why the GO appears to be working fine on my boat are:

1. Technology has moved on (directional antenna, smart signal processing etc) This happens all the time. Once upon a time people told the Wright Brothers their ideas would never fly (ok, bad pun...)
2. I have bunch of solar panels between the external and internal antennae. Not solid metal, but a bit of a grid of metal strips. Maybe that gives some kind of shielding?

I wont be anywhere remote for a number of months, so will not be able to report field results for a while. Hamo, if you get one and are in area where the amp is really needed please post about your experience. Meanwhile, there is a boat show here in 6 weeks where the Cel Fi distributor is likely to have a booth. If so I'll talk to them about issues raised in the thread. They sell a lot of systems for houses, which are not 90' long and not made out of steel either.

Insequent said:

CelFi is a USA company, with a number of products that have 100db performance that have been used in a range of environments.

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You should have used the word "claim" in referring to their 100 dB specification since I seriously doubt you have the ability to measure it. Any claim like that for the US market is definitely a play on specifications and likely involves the use of a directional antenna to boost the output of the amp (which is probably 34 - 50 db). The FCC has a variety of regulations about cellular amplification and especially for LTE amplification.

Insequent said:

Technology has moved on (directional antenna, smart signal processing etc)

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Technology moves on. Physics stays right where it is.

If you're using a directional antenna, you're doing something completely different from the needs of nearly every boater. It would change everything since the output from the antenna doesn't have the separation requirement because it's not radiating the signal all over. You didn't mention what type of antenna you had. And also the solar panels could easily provide a shield for some of the signal if you happen to be using an omni-directional antenna.

Not to pile on but it seems highly unlikely that you'd see 5 bars of 3G signal and only 1 bar of LTE. The only way that could happen is if you were in proximity of 2 towers. In general, it doesn't happen like that. Towers have radios for both 3G and LTE on the same tower. In that case, the LTE should always have more bars since the signal propagation is longer with LTE. I'd have to also say that it's some incredible app that can give a readout of 3G vs LTE performance - how about posting a screen shot of it?

Insequent said:

They sell a lot of systems for houses, which are not 90' long and not made out of steel either.

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Who said 90' is needed for a house? I wrote that you needed it for a fiberglass boat.

90 feet is not needed in a house or office installation. There's a really great reason for that - houses and buildings don't move. They use a directional outside antenna pointed to the tower being hit. The signal isn't radiating everywhere so the inside antenna doesn't pick it up.

Boats are different. Unlike houses, they move and swing and change locations. So a directional antenna won't work. Instead, an omni-directional antenna is used, spewing the signal in all directions. That's when it gets into the path of the inside antenna.

Hey - I've given more than enough help here. I'm not selling anything nor have any interest in any type of amp product. Instead, go talk to the salesman at the next show for the company selling the product. I'm sure you'll get quality, accurate, and unbiased information straight from them. Salesmen are always the best source of decision making!

Jeffrey S said:

You should have used the word "claim" in referring to their 100 dB specification since I seriously doubt you have the ability to measure it. Any claim like that for the US market is definitely a play on specifications and likely involves the use of a directional antenna to boost the output of the amp (which is probably 34 - 50 db). The FCC has a variety of regulations about cellular amplification and especially for LTE amplification.



Technology moves on. Physics stays right where it is.

If you're using a directional antenna, you're doing something completely different from the needs of nearly every boater. It would change everything since the output from the antenna doesn't have the separation requirement because it's not radiating the signal all over. You didn't mention what type of antenna you had. And also the solar panels could easily provide a shield for some of the signal if you happen to be using an omni-directional antenna.

Not to pile on but it seems highly unlikely that you'd see 5 bars of 3G signal and only 1 bar of LTE. The only way that could happen is if you were in proximity of 2 towers. In general, it doesn't happen like that. Towers have radios for both 3G and LTE on the same tower. In that case, the LTE should always have more bars since the signal propagation is longer with LTE. I'd have to also say that it's some incredible app that can give a readout of 3G vs LTE performance - how about posting a screen shot of it?




Who said 90' is needed for a house? I wrote that you needed it for a fiberglass boat.

90 feet is not needed in a house or office installation. There's a really great reason for that - houses and buildings don't move. They use a directional outside antenna pointed to the tower being hit. The signal isn't radiating everywhere so the inside antenna doesn't pick it up.

Boats are different. Unlike houses, they move and swing and change locations. So a directional antenna won't work. Instead, an omni-directional antenna is used, spewing the signal in all directions. That's when it gets into the path of the inside antenna.

Hey - I've given more than enough help here. I'm not selling anything nor have any interest in any type of amp product. Instead, go talk to the salesman at the next show for the company selling the product. I'm sure you'll get quality, accurate, and unbiased information straight from them. Salesmen are always the best source of decision making!

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Really appreciate the insight and thoughts. You've cleared up some misconceptions about the units. I now have a direction and am going that way to upgrade my system. Thanks!

Oh My head is spinning! I always have issues with electrons, wavesigns, cross frequency modulation, feedback and so on. Jeffery I appreciate your insight and help with regards to this issue. Hope the new system works when I get it, but I'm worried now.

Maybe I better wait for Apple to come up with a working solution.

Cheers!

Jeffrey S said:

90 feet is not needed in a house or office installation. There's a really great reason for that - houses and buildings don't move. They use a directional outside antenna pointed to the tower being hit. The signal isn't radiating everywhere so the inside antenna doesn't pick it up.

Boats are different. Unlike houses, they move and swing and change locations. So a directional antenna won't work. Instead, an omni-directional antenna is used, spewing the signal in all directions. That's when it gets into the path of the inside antenna.

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I'm soon attempting setup of a dual channel 2.4/5 directional WiFi booster, because in BC ports we can point at Shaw hotspots on shore in many of the Salish (Georgia Strait) ports.

In particular, I have a fixed berth and the indicated Go Wifi spot within 300 yards of each other, LOS unobstructed across the water. Do I have to hope for the bounce?

Jeffrey S said:

I don't understand what that means. You need to have some type of radio transmission between the phone and the amp. That happens wirelessly with an inside antenna (which won't work) or a cradle that the phone attaches into.

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Jeffrey,

Could you hard wire the amp to the mifi? The new Verizon Jetpack has an input plug for an external antenna.

Thanks for the help. I'm a complete techno dolt, but I have to find a way to get reliable voice and data when in remote areas.

Paul

I have no links to anyone in the industry, just a product user and sharing my experiences.

The 100db claims are on the company's website (link in post #39) , I'm just quoting them, not claiming that I have tested or measured it. I imagine the USA has some consumer protection against misleading and deceptive advertising, so I doubt they make the claims lightly. But I have not attempted to dig further into what it is they claim. There are large fines here for false claims.

For BigSalmonFish and Crusty Chief, go with the wired/cradle units if you can. Those devices, Wilson, WeBoost etc, are termed Mobile Phone Boosters and are banned for use in Australia. $0.25m fine possible. When people use cradles here they are just connecting their phone to an antenna (no amp) which can help in a car, where you can't get out and stand on the roof, but they are of no use in a boat.

So hence my persistence with the wireless type, termed Mobile Phone Repeaters here. You have to apply to your network service provider to use one, but the Cel-Fi distributor has streamlined that process now they have the unit licenced for use.

As far as directional antenna's are concerned, some of the Cel-Fi products use a directional internal antenna. This is likely why the phone app has a test function. You simply experiment with different locations to measure performance. A directional internal antenna, possibly aided by shielding from my solar panels, could overcome the feedback loop you describe. I have my internal antenna about 4" below a solar panel. The solar panel is on top of the pilothouse roof and the Cel Fi antenna is tucked behind an overhead panel near the helm. With the front of the overhead panel removed the test gave 130.461 UMTS. I put the 1/2" ply cover back in place and the test gave 129.224 UMTS, so I figured the location is fine, and I prefer to hide the cable and antenna.

I do see 4 or 5 bars of 3G, and at best 1 bar of 4G. Just saying what I see!

But some clarification for you. In Australia Telstra have the widest network coverage, and their 3G coverage is pretty good. A small town nearby usually gets you some signal. But the 4G network rollout is still a work in progress. They have coverage maps on their website, but it really doesn't matter - what I see is what I get! Where I am anchored at present is the west side of Moreton Island. There is a resort about 7 miles to the north and a small settlement (Kooringal) at the south end of the Island, probably about 3-4 miles away. One or both will have 3G towers. Brisbane city is about 20 miles to the west and will have the nearest 4G tower. This morning on 4G I could get 1 bar, now I can't get any. But I'll persist, as I'd like to post the screen shot data when boosting the 4G signal.

Below are the screen shots for the 3G connection. Not sure whether they clarify anything given that the un-boosted signal is quite strong anyway, but it will be interesting to compare the numbers once I can get the 4G ones.

What is puzzling to me on the screenshot is the line 'Ext antenna in use' with 'no'. I disconnected the cable to the ext antenna and, not surprisingly, the unit stopped working. Re-connected, rebooted and its working again. Hope to post 4G screen shots for comparison before too long!

Edit: Curious, I checked the network coverage map. The resort to the north has 4G but Kooringal does not. In places the 4G reaches out from the mainland 20 miles away, but I am anchored in a locations that is hole in the coverage. I see what you mean about the strength of 4G though. Still, where I am will be a good test of the boost, once I manage to get 1 bar again.

Ok, just got a 4G connection, so here are the screen shots. Boat is anchored in same spot as the earlier screen shots. The phone app connects to the CelFi GO via bluetooth to get the info.

Just numbers to me, but JeffreyS or someone might be able to tell me what they are saying. Seems to me the GO is actually working like its supposed to.

Insequent, although respecting your choice to respond with detail and well put responses, JS/AC is creating controversy for his own purposes and is best ignored during these attention seeking tirades.

djones44 said:

I'm soon attempting setup of a dual channel 2.4/5 directional WiFi booster, because in BC ports we can point at Shaw hotspots on shore in many of the Salish (Georgia Strait) ports.

In particular, I have a fixed berth and the indicated Go Wifi spot within 300 yards of each other, LOS unobstructed across the water. Do I have to hope for the bounce?

Click to expand...

WiFi is a bit different. It's line-of-sight so you'll need an unobstructed shot at the hotspot. Directional antennas have a beam width spec. If that's small, it'll give more range but, well, less width. So any movement will potentially give problems including up and down movement (tide). Obviously at anchor, it won't work well at all.

Drake said:

Could you hard wire the amp to the mifi? The new Verizon Jetpack has an input plug for an external antenna.

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Yes - that's the best solution. It's rare today - most phones no longer have an antenna jack because the cellular networks have been so much better built out than in the 90's.

You'll need to find a way to get a "pigtail" cable from the MiFi jack to the antenna connector (either on the amp or to another cable that the amp manufacturer produces). Calling the amp manufacturer is the best first step.

Insequent said:

Just numbers to me, but JeffreyS or someone might be able to tell me what they are saying. Seems to me the GO is actually working like its supposed to.

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I did write that the only way you could be getting a lower 4G bar count was if you were hitting a different tower. In the US (and Bahamas), all towers with 3G have LTE today so we never see that type of difference. It sounds like 4G is still being rolled out there accounting for the difference. With a tower having both, the LTE signal strength will always be greater (or the same with "bars").

Manufacturers play games with specs especially in radio claims where environmental conditions matter and antenna size matters a lot. If the amp puts out 50 dB but they offer a directional antenna that doubles the amplification, then they now have a 100 dB amp (even though you might not have the special antenna). Antennas are amplifiers too - that's why they have dB ratings showing their amplification amount.

I read all this and still don't get it.

Panbo: The Marine Electronics Hub: Simple marine cell boosting: Wilson Sleek 4G (weBoost Drive 4G) and Digital Antenna Bullet

And how does it differ from this?

Marine WiFi & xG System: The Wirie pro – The Wirie

Cell & Wifi Boosters Revisited

I had a interesting discussion with Digital Antenna. I was told to turn the LTE function off when in a weak area. Apparently the phone prefers the LTE signal to the detriment of others. I was told that by doing that my performance with the existing setup should improve. It was also mentioned to not get rid of the 3 watt booster. My house is in a lousy cell area so I turned the LTE off. I immediately saw the phone reconnect and get a stronger signal.

A response from Powertec in Australia about the Cel-Fi GO.

A response from Powertec in Australia about the Cel-Fi GO to questioning on Jeffrey Guru, USA statements below.


1. In reference to a Cel-Fi GO:

a. Cel-Fi is not a traditional bi-directional repeater.
i. Cel-Fi uses multiple step echo cancelation and therefore can support positive gain margin.
1. A traditional repeater has zero to negative gain margin so they have to back power down to avoid oscillation.
ii. Cel-Fi uses real time path loss analysis to:
1. Allow as much gain as possible.
2. Control the gain on the uplink based on distance from the base station.
3. Create a downlink footprint that is as large as possible with oscillation prevention.
iii. Traditional repeaters can and do oscillate.
iv. Some have detection circuits to make them stop once they start, effectively shutting them down.

Cel-Fi uses a plan of oscillation prevention, so the gain levels are automatically adjusted (to work in conjunction with the echo cancellation).

It doesn’t have to stop echo because it never starts in the first place.

However the more separation you can build into the install the more boost you will have.

This is aided by mounting the Cel-Fi approved Marine antenna as high as possible and mounting the donor antenna as low as possible in the vessel, our Marine antenna has a doughnut shaped radiation pattern, and it covers all the Telstra frequencies including 700 which will eventually be the dominant band.

Please do not under any circumstances use an existing antenna.

Powertec has a money back guarantee.

We guarantee you will be happy, and we will provide technical support at no cost until you are satisfied, and if not we refund, officially 30 days but we will continue to work with any problem installs until it is working.

Boater
Welcome, and thanks for clarification.

Could you take a look at the screen shots in post#46 and advise if there is anything that looks unusual? I think the GO is working fine....

I do have your antenna and it is mounted at the top of my mast. I ran your thick co-ax (about 1cm diameter) to the GO. I could probably mount the internal antenna about 2m lower, but running the wires would be a PITA and I'm not sure how much benefit there would be.

boater said:

A response from Powertec in Australia about the Cel-Fi GO to questioning on Jeffrey Guru

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That's uncalled for. I'm trying to help. I don't sell these things. I've just used them for many years and have helped thousands of other BOATERS with them.

Whoever sent that response has a clear self/company interest in saying whatever is necessary to get you to buy. I would be shocked beyond belief to find out that mr-company-representative has ever installed one of their products themselves on a fiberglass boat.

95% of the response was pure gobbledy-gook and bullshit. I have a feeling that almost everyone reading those "points" won't have a clue what they mean. There's good reason for it. It's all woo-woo.

boater said:

Powertec has a money back guarantee.

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THAT was the most important sentence in the "response." With that, sure, get it, install it, and watch carefully if it works. Send it back if/when it doesn't.

Hi Jeffrey S Guru - I wanted to purchase one so asked the distributor about your comments and that was their response. It is not my response - I just copied it.

The product has been approved by Telstra so the "up to 100 db gain" has been confirmed - there are very strict rules in Australia about false advertising.

I am sure you are very experienced. Not sure what was said was uncalled for.

But I agree with you - install it and respond back as I will. I have heard great reports (and in fibreglass boats) but not installed one myself.

boater said:

Hi Jeffrey S Guru - I wanted to purchase one so asked the distributor about your comments and that was their response. It is not my response - I just copied it.

The product has been approved by Telstra so the "up to 100 db gain" has been confirmed - there are very strict rules in Australia about false advertising.

I am sure you are very experienced. Not sure what was said was uncalled for.

But I agree with you - install it and respond back as I will. I have heard great reports (and in fibreglass boats) but not installed one myself.

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Boater,

If your going to bust on someone how about having the balls to do it under your usual user ID.

John

boater said:

Hi Jeffrey S Guru - I wanted to purchase one so asked the ...

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Boater, maybe you could simply refer to Jeffrey as "Jeffrey S", "Jeffrey", "JS", or even "Sir". Adding ,"Guru" is inaccurate, silly, and a bit annoying. Maybe if you attempt to avoid being annoying, Jeffrey will try to not to be so easily annoyed.

"Boater" signs up today and immediately writes his first 2 posts right in page 3 of an existing thread.

Nah...there's nothing fishy going on here...