AIS with the ability to upgrade firmware

Spottsville · Feb 4, 2017

In the last year there have been several discussions about the advantages of AIS in collision avoidance as well as the ability to identify other vessels before you can see them. Some are opting to buy VHF radios with AIS included but little discussion has taken place regarding additional capabilities some manufacturers are including in their units.

When we wanted to add AIS to our boat we took another cruisers suggestion and paid a little more and added a stand alone AIS vs a radio with the capability. We are sure glad we installed a Vesper XB-8000 unit. At the time we did not appreciate the units ability to upgrade the firmware. But now almost three years later we are sure happy we bought an upgradable AIS. Vesper have provide free updates to the software several times and one even provided an anchor watch capability. Now they are at it again with their new smartAIS function. I'm not going to try to describe this new function but here is the link so you can check it out for yourself.

https://www2.vespermarine.com/

So it just goes to show that sometimes you can pay a little more and come out way ahead!

No connection just a very satisfied customer.

O C Diver · Feb 4, 2017

Glad that you're happy with your unit. It seems that most of the improvements are allowing the unit to perform functions done by other electronics as opposed to new features. As an analogy, my Icom radio has a display screen that can display AIS targets. That technology isn't new, just new to being displayed on a VHF. It's nice that your unit has an anchor drag alarm, but that technology certainly isn't new.

Ted

JDCAVE · Feb 4, 2017

I believe this functionality is common in several manufacturers. The firmware can be updated on my Sitex unit. I believe one of the biggest issues with Class-B AIS is its power and resulting range which results in intermittent transmission in some circumstances.

Xsbank · Feb 4, 2017

JD, did you get the Sitex unit with the screen or the "little black box?"

Are you pleased? I have a Sitex sounder, an antique for sure but it continues to work reliably so I approve of Sitex.

CaptTom · Feb 4, 2017

Vesper has really impressed me with their commitment to firmware updates. Good, solid improvements are made all the time. Some are not that useful to me personally, while others are exactly what I'd been looking for. They listen to their customers and have an active update program in which customer requests appear to be prioritized.

On the other side of the equation is Garmin. They seem focused on pumping out new hardware every year, and planned obsolescence seems to be their priority. They'll dribble out a few bug fixes for a year or two, then declare the product "legacy" and stop all updates. I never found an update which actually improved the product.

My oft-cited example is my Garmin MFD. It was listed as a legacy product two years after I bought it, and there have been no updates since. It takes an SD card, and that SD card can contain Active Captain data, but Garmin refused (I asked) to update the firmware to actually read that data. This isn't a technical limitation, it's a deliberate effort by Garmin to diminish the value of my 3-year-old unit in the totally unlikely hope that I'll toss it and buy a brand new model.

I can assure you, my next MFD will NOT be made by Garmin. I know other manufacturers do the same thing, but this one felt almost like a personal insult.

O C Diver · Feb 4, 2017

CaptTom said:
On the other side of the equation is Garmin. They seem focused on pumping out new hardware every year, and planned obsolescence seems to be their priority. They'll dribble out a few bug fixes for a year or two, then declare the product "legacy" and stop all updates. I never found an update which actually improved the product.

My oft-cited example is my Garmin MFD. It was listed as a legacy product two years after I bought it, and there have been no updates since. It takes an SD card, and that SD card can contain Active Captain data, but Garmin refused (I asked) to update the firmware to actually read that data. This isn't a technical limitation, it's a deliberate effort by Garmin to diminish the value of my 3-year-old unit in the totally unlikely hope that I'll toss it and buy a brand new model.

I can assure you, my next MFD will NOT be made by Garmin. I know other manufacturers do the same thing, but this one felt almost like a personal insult.

Do you feel the same way when Apple or some other personal electronics or computer manufacturer does the same thing?

Ted

Xsbank · Feb 4, 2017

The difference with boat electronics and an iPhone is the boat stuff is frequently "built in" either mounted in the dash or networked. Plus they are a significantly higher initial cost and there is frequently an installation cost. Yes, obsolete iPhones are annoying but largely they are still useful and last for quite a long time unless you want all the latest doodads like Apple Pay or whatever.

None of my electronics are built in to the dash. As much as a new suite of electronics can be exciting, it's frustrating to be rebuilding the dash repeatedly and pulling new cables. Of course, my boat is not "yachty" but I pulled a whole bundle of useless computer cable out of her as she must have been powered by a PC in the past.

I have also heard that many companies are getting out of building dedicated plotter/mfds as they are expensive, low volume and many boaters are converting to iPads or similar. After all, a plotter is just a screen with proprietary buttons and some software. Construction costs must be minuscule. Keeping up with technology is expensive and frustrating. For example, virtually every airline pilot carries an iPad with a gps instead of the bags full of paper approach charts we all had to carry in the past. Seems simple but this became a challenge as they all need charging ports as the batteries were insufficient for a long crossing. Airline cockpits just didn't have any and the regulators required a lengthy approval process to install them. It's a nuisance in every industry that uses electronics.

JDCAVE · Feb 4, 2017

Xsbank said:
JD, did you get the Sitex unit with the screen or the "little black box?"

Are you pleased? I have a Sitex sounder, an antique for sure but it continues to work reliably so I approve of Sitex.

It's the little black box, that interfaces through the NMEA 183 to display on the Coastal explorer. As mentioned the transmission is sometimes intermittent. Sitex has provided help on this, I've swapped with other units, but it seems this is a common complaint with other Class B units. All connections have checked out fine, including the dedicated VHS antenna. The intermittent transmission issue has been identified through contact with other vessels carrying Class B AIS. Sometimes they observe us, sometimes not. FWIW, Stryker has confirmed all of my diagnosis.

Jim

Xsbank · Feb 4, 2017

Thanks for that JD, I am interested in AIS for industrial traffic but have no desire to announce my progress to the world. My past experience with conflicting recreational traffic is that most assume if there is no actual physical contact then it's a successful encounter. I doubt that these operators are even sober, let alone aware.

JDCAVE · Feb 4, 2017

Xsbank said:
Thanks for that JD, I am interested in AIS for industrial traffic but have no desire to announce my progress to the world. My past experience with conflicting recreational traffic is that most assume if there is no actual physical contact then it's a successful encounter. I doubt that these operators are even sober, let alone aware.

I have an Icom "receive-only" unit that is surplus to requirements, if you are interested. I swapped this unit out for the Sitex.

Xsbank · Feb 4, 2017

Hi JD, thank you, but I guess I should have spelled that out - I don't like that anybody with wifi can see my meanderings! I've got a S.H. Radio with an AIS receiver in it but I would like to show the commercial guys where I am. It would make a very loud clank if anyone hit me.

Spottsville · Feb 4, 2017

Xsbank said:
Thanks for that JD, I am interested in AIS for industrial traffic but have no desire to announce my progress to the world. My past experience with conflicting recreational traffic is that most assume if there is no actual physical contact then it's a successful encounter. I doubt that these operators are even sober, let alone aware.

I assume you know the Vesper unit can be silenced easily with the wifi app. We don't transmit in marinas or at docks. We use our iPhone or IPad also to display in the master at night. The ability to display on a phone or a tablet and the NEMA 2000 connection is convenient.

Makes for good sleeping on the inland rivers.

Alaskan Sea-Duction · Feb 4, 2017

Good Post Norm! Thank you. I just updated my Raymarine MFD, but didn't check my AIS.

Spottsville · Feb 4, 2017

JDCAVE said:
I believe this functionality is common in several manufacturers. The firmware can be updated on my Sitex unit. I believe one of the biggest issues with Class-B AIS is its power and resulting range which results in intermittent transmission in some circumstances.

"Can" be updated is good unless no improvements are forthcoming . I credit Vesper for adding new capabilities on what to date has been more frequent than I've experienced with other equipment. Vesper sends you
An email with the info and a link to the needed path.

As for range, on the inland rivers you are seldom not covered.

CaptTom · Feb 4, 2017

O C Diver said:
Do you feel the same way when Apple or some other personal electronics or computer manufacturer does the same thing?

Yes.

My Android phone is over 4 years old, and still does everything I want it to do (and more). It also still gets regular software updates. I don't own anything from Apple. I don't stand in line for a new product just because its fashionable.

As was pointed out, an MFD is not a phone. Besides costing 2-3 times as much, it's much more limited in functionality and tends to be kept much longer.

Finally, software updates like the example I cited (adding the ability to display Active Captain data) is developed once. The decision NOT to add that code to the firmware updates for existing devices is likely a business decision, not a technical limitation.

I don't like throwing away perfectly good hardware every year or two, and I'm not a slave to fashion. Obviously I'm in the minority there, so I'll gladly admit that other opinions are equally valid.

And I will also admit to liking Garmin hardware and software. It's just not practical to me to purchase throw-away electronics.

tadhana · Feb 4, 2017

JDCAVE said:
It's the little black box, that interfaces through the NMEA 183 to display on the Coastal explorer. As mentioned the transmission is sometimes intermittent. Sitex has provided help on this, I've swapped with other units, but it seems this is a common complaint with other Class B units. All connections have checked out fine, including the dedicated VHS antenna. The intermittent transmission issue has been identified through contact with other vessels carrying Class B AIS. Sometimes they observe us, sometimes not. FWIW, Stryker has confirmed all of my diagnosis.

Jim

Does your Sitex connect to your computer via a USB? Sitex had an issue with "USB drop out." This sounds like what you are describing. We had this issue from 2012 through 2014. After lot of research and finally talking the folks at Digital Yacht at the Miami Boat show, I learned that Sitex units were having a problem called USB Drop out. At first Sitex denied it. It took a while and lot of back up documentation to prove to them that they had a problem, and they agreed to take my unit back and fix it in just a couple of days. That turned into a week, then two then three. Finally we were getting underway to head north again when they relented and sent me a new unit.

O C Diver · Feb 4, 2017

CaptTom said:
Yes.

My Android phone is over 4 years old, and still does everything I want it to do (and more). It also still gets regular software updates. I don't own anything from Apple. I don't stand in line for a new product just because its fashionable.

As was pointed out, an MFD is not a phone. Besides costing 2-3 times as much, it's much more limited in functionality and tends to be kept much longer.

Finally, software updates like the example I cited (adding the ability to display Active Captain data) is developed once. The decision NOT to add that code to the firmware updates for existing devices is likely a business decision, not a technical limitation.

I don't like throwing away perfectly good hardware every year or two, and I'm not a slave to fashion. Obviously I'm in the minority there, so I'll gladly admit that other opinions are equally valid.

And I will also admit to liking Garmin hardware and software. It's just not practical to me to purchase throw-away electronics.

Tom,

I have Garmin 5208 and 5212 displays which were copyrighted in 2007. Can still update software, accessories and charts to MFDs that were discontinued years ago. While I may or may not be able to add Active Captain, 18 months ago I was able to add the newest radar and AIS, update the software and have everything work perfectly. Not sure what reasons there were for not supporting your model, but clearly that's not the norm with Garmin.

Ted

Donsan · Feb 5, 2017

O C Diver said:
I have Garmin 5208 and 5212 displays which were copyrighted in 2007. Can still update software, accessories and charts to MFDs that were discontinued years ago. While I may or may not be able to add Active Captain, 18 months ago I was able to add the newest radar and AIS, update the software and have everything work perfectly. Not sure what reasons there were for not supporting your model, but clearly that's not the norm with Garmin.

This was posted on another thread and explains why Garmin does not support devices designed in 2006 and prior.

Jeffrey S said:
Well, not really. At the time, there were 3 independent companies producing nautical charts for recreational use - C-Map, Navionics, and Transas. Garmin had decided early to license the Transas data for their early chartplotters. Around 2006, Transas decided to get out of the recreational market leaving Garmin stranded.

Garmin decided to create their own chart development and hired teams of cartographers and digitizers. I've been to the floors in their HQ where they operate and it is an impressive operation. The bottom line is that they now own their own cartography and no one can take it away. They do license some charts, like Explorer in the Bahamas, but I'd bet they have pretty great licensing agreements that don't allow them to just go away. I know first-hand that it took many months of license agreement negotiations with Garmin for ActiveCaptain. They definitely understand all the issues and are at the very top in this game.

One thing about using a Mac for Garmin installations...

Perhaps is was already mentioned but there is a native Mac HomePort application from Garmin. The great things is...it's free. Once you have a chartplotter onboard, you'll be able to pull the charts off it and run them directly on the Mac. You can create routes, move them to a data card to insert into the chartplotter and more. HomePort has ActiveCaptain support too - I've been a tester of it for Windows and I've used it for real for many years on Mac's.

One thing you should also get is a cellular iPad and then get Garmin's app (BlueChart Mobile) - put it on iPhones too - you can put it and the charts on up to 5 different devices. It's the same charts as the chartplotter but works on an iPad. You can create routes on the iPad and move them over WiFi to the chartplotter. I did that a lot too - it's a pretty great product.

As an aside, Transas has popped their head up again in the recreational market. After dedicating themselves to commercial ECDIS charts since 2006, they are the company behind the iSailor app. It's a pretty nice app but I can't help wondering if they'll eventually pull support and escape back to the ECDIS world if competition gets tough or they just get tired of the recreational market again. They can't seem to get enough marketshare for the app to make them a top developer in the space.

JDCAVE · Feb 5, 2017

tadhana said:
Does your Sitex connect to your computer via a USB? Sitex had an issue with "USB drop out." This sounds like what you are describing...

No. Mine is connected via the NMEA 183 "receive" connection I believe. The USB is only connected when checking the unit's diagnostics. The connections were verified by two different technicians (original installer and Stryker's tech) as well as Sitex. It could well be interference with other structures on the boat. Remember Class B units transmit with low power. Who knows what is going on. I have no issues with the receive capability.

Jim

O C Diver · Feb 5, 2017

Donsan said:
This was posted on another thread and explains why Garmin does not support devices designed in 2006 and prior.

That is unfortunate. However, it should also be pointed out that they do support their post 2006 legacy equipment. As mentioned before, I was able to interface my 2015 model year radar and AIS to their legacy MFDs, upgrade the operating software and add the latest East Coast chart package.

Ted

North Baltic sea · Feb 6, 2017

Usei I've noticed a big difference between AIS and radar blobs in the image. AIS is "nice" but I do not trust it completely. Especially pleasure boats AIS is even worse, and between your tas away, while you can see ... Radar has something to rely on.

Cigatoo · Feb 6, 2017

North Baltic Sea
Interested to know what you do not trust. Not being critical. Have been considering a purchase and want to learn. False targets? Inaccurate positions, CPA, TCPA?

Thanks

psneeld · Feb 6, 2017

Easting... I have not heard of AIS inaccuracies of any significsnce. I would generally trust the AIS over many small boat RADAR's ARPA/MARPA features.....position is a toss up because of the minor lag in position that I am not sure is even discernable.

Can't speak for Baltic, but I know more than a few seasoned cruisers who can take or leave AIS because of where they primarily bost, so few targets have AIS transponders.

Most of the one that DO have transponders, they are usually easy to pick up on RADAR and usually are lit up well enough at night.

Sure if you ply busy harbors or narrow winding rivers a lot, pretty invaluable.

But if you dont ply those waters, your chances of colliding with a vessel is dependent on watching ahead more than anything else. The vast majority of targets, plus they are the ones with no concept of the rules of the road, are what you are most likely to hit.

North Baltic sea · Feb 6, 2017

Easting said:
North Baltic Sea
Interested to know what you do not trust. Not being critical. Have been considering a purchase and want to learn. False targets? Inaccurate positions, CPA, TCPA?

Thanks

hey, I apologize for my bad english ...

I have noticed very often even higher than 0.5 nautical miles to the difference between reality and ais on my Raymarin system. plotter of view, seems to come from the collision, drive over and AIS transmitting vessels are far away from me, I can measure his distance from the radar and get the exact distance and direction.

Of course the other way around Ais looks like a ship passing far away, but in reality, the risk of a collision. In addition to the AIS vessel may appear from and disappear from the display even if the distance only 0.5-1 nautical miles. Sometimes AIS paints are quite right. this three reason why I do not trust the AIS. I do like the AIS and I am aware of the problem and it is OK. These are even zoom into the map to mine the waters of the archipelago which usually 1-1.5 nm chartplotter display.

CaptTom · Feb 6, 2017

Easting said:
North Baltic Sea
Interested to know what you do not trust. Not being critical. Have been considering a purchase and want to learn. False targets? Inaccurate positions, CPA, TCPA?

Thanks

The biggest inaccuracies we've seen is in user-entered data. Recreational boats often enter their length in feet, when it should be in meters. It's pretty obvious that it's a 40-foot, not a 40-meter, vessel.

We've seen lots of times larger commercial vessels fail to update their status or destination. It's pretty funny to see a ship that reports "moored" moving along at 16 knots. Or pass a tied-up ship that's unloading cargo while "underway." Knowing the destination isn't usually a safety issue, but that is also often wrong.

rwidman · Feb 6, 2017

CaptTom said:
Vesper has really impressed me with their commitment to firmware updates. Good, solid improvements are made all the time. Some are not that useful to me personally, while others are exactly what I'd been looking for. They listen to their customers and have an active update program in which customer requests appear to be prioritized.

On the other side of the equation is Garmin. They seem focused on pumping out new hardware every year, and planned obsolescence seems to be their priority. They'll dribble out a few bug fixes for a year or two, then declare the product "legacy" and stop all updates. I never found an update which actually improved the product.

My oft-cited example is my Garmin MFD. It was listed as a legacy product two years after I bought it, and there have been no updates since. It takes an SD card, and that SD card can contain Active Captain data, but Garmin refused (I asked) to update the firmware to actually read that data. This isn't a technical limitation, it's a deliberate effort by Garmin to diminish the value of my 3-year-old unit in the totally unlikely hope that I'll toss it and buy a brand new model.

I can assure you, my next MFD will NOT be made by Garmin. I know other manufacturers do the same thing, but this one felt almost like a personal insult.

You have the right to purchase any product you wish. You are making unsubstantiated claims against Garmin. I suppose you have the right to post anything on the Internet, true or not, but morally, it's wrong. I'm guessing you don't really care about that.

Any sort of electronic device will become obsolete quickly because of new technology and new software. It's unrealistic to expect the manufacturer to support it forever.

rwidman · Feb 6, 2017

Xsbank said:
Hi JD, thank you, but I guess I should have spelled that out - I don't like that anybody with wifi can see my meanderings! I've got a S.H. Radio with an AIS receiver in it but I would like to show the commercial guys where I am. It would make a very loud clank if anyone hit me.

You are looking for an AIS unit that only transmits to commercial ships? How would it know?

The AIS transceiver transmits a signal. Anyone with a proper receiver can receive the signal, even a land based station.

rwidman · Feb 6, 2017

Just in case anyone doesn't know this, there's a big difference between having an actual AIS receiver on your boat and a computer or phone reading AIS data over the Internet. This data is from (mostly) land based stations and is relayed to the Internet. There is a delay in doing this but more importantly, there are places where there are no land based stations and if you're looking at one of these areas, you might see nothing while the QE II is bearing down on you.

Xsbank · Feb 6, 2017

You misunderstand - the downside of AIS is that anyone with a wifi device can see where I am and where I'm going. I don't like that. I will buy an AIS unit because I wish to be visible to commercial traffic as my speed is about 7-8 knots.

I am fully conversant with how AIS works. I am just about to pull the trigger on a Standard Horizon 6500, they are available in Canada now.

Northern Spy · Feb 6, 2017

Xsbank said:
You misunderstand - the downside of AIS is that anyone with a wifi device can see where I am and where I'm going. I don't like that. I will buy an AIS unit because I wish to be visible to commercial traffic as my speed is about 7-8 knots.

I am fully conversant with how AIS works. I am just about to pull the trigger on a Standard Horizon 6500, they are available in Canada now.

No AIS required. I just have to look out the window and see you. Your vessel has a very distinctive profile. [emoji3]

I thought of picking up a SH 6500 until I saw the price!

AIS with the ability to upgrade firmware

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