this puts the problems we suffer into perspective

Note to self: Don't travel at 17 to 18 knots while sleeping.

Ted

I don't think that's going to buff out.

Sad; you can tell this guy is really suffering from being violently ejected from the race.

Ignorant question: can radar pick up floating shipping containers or do they tend to be too low in the water?

angus99 said:

Sad; you can tell this guy is really suffering from being violently ejected from the race.

Ignorant question: can radar pick up floating shipping containers or do they tend to be too low in the water?

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I hate to post it but....it depends.

If enough cross section becomes exposed regularly dnough, sure.

But sea state and how it is floating is important.

Also...not sure how many have fiberglass sides versus metal...that to might affect radar signature.

Funny, I saw all kinds of things floating around during my 20 years of flying low over the ocean .....from pole to pole ....and never saw a container....

Anyone ever come across the statistic of collisions with containers? I thought someone a few years back posted a link to a whole website concerning lost containers at sea.

We've been told to always sleep feet forward when doing long passages in case of abrupt stops.

We've never seen a floating container although most our ocean miles have been outside the shipping lanes. This was on a beach in the San Blais Islands. No one could tell us how it got there.

All that money, all the effort and planning and prep and discipline, the super high-end, high-tech boat - it is sad to see. I can't imagine the feeling that your race was brought to an abrupt end by maybe a container full of Chinese sneakers and lawn chairs destined for Walmart. On the other hand it looks like he got incredibly lucky, could have been far worse. Amazing he's still underway (at least at the time of that video) given the damage.

I've read a few articles about this issue. There are lots of containers lost at sea, but it's a big place. I recall one article saying that containers have now to be designed to sink. Plenty of other stuff out there which would cause damage. We passed a spherical object, perhaps a buoy of some sort, at sea; thousands of feet of water there so it was not anchored.

According to gcaptain there was an average of 1679 containers/yr lost at sea for the period 2008 through 2014. The number is increasing as more ships ply the oceans.

Unknown is the sink rate and duration afloat. Containers are metal so if afloat a foot or more should show up on radar. Except in a confused sea state maybe. Last big job I was on we moved about 15,000 containers, specified to be all metal for stacking and storage purposes. None were lost at sea but several were with contents trashed when opened.

Sounds like he is abandoning ship.

NZ Coastguard to rescue Vendée Globe skipper Thomas Ruyant - Practical Boat Owner

psneeld said:

Anyone ever come across the statistic of collisions with containers? I thought someone a few years back posted a link to a whole website concerning lost containers at sea.

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There are a staggering number of containers lost at sea. Reading some of the interviews of TOTE employees and families, amazing how casually they mention regularly losing containers. However, I've never seen one. I don't know anyone personally who has ever seen or encountered one. It simply emphasizes the magnitude of the seas and that relatively, the odds of actually encountering one of the lost containers is very slim. I've read of collisions with containers but even then no one saw the container so difficult to verify.

The likelihood of them floating near the surface is very small. Empty ones normally sink within hours as they fill with water. The ones that would float for an extended period of time, would have buoyant cargo such as a load of PFDs or life rings. Can't seem to find it, but there was an article on some testing that was done regarding duration of them floating empty and how long it took for loaded ones on average to saturate with sea water and sink.

Ted

Grant Dalton, when he and his crew won the round the world race on Club Med (catamaran), said thank goodness that icebergs only come out during the day. They did the trip in about 62 days and had a 24 hour run of 625 miles and hit speeds of 35 knots. If they had hit something?

What a scary situation. It appears that there was a second boat that struck a container in this year's Globe. Vendée Globe skipper Kito de Pavant successfully rescued - Practical Boat Owner
What are the odds of that?

Cheers, Bill

I remember the Hamiltons on Dirona were concerned about striking shipping containers during their ocean crossings. Apparently some float with little exposed above the waterline.

A legendary offshore danger - Ocean Navigator - March/April 2013

I would guess statistically, most of us over 60 are more likely to be in trouble from medical reasons, plus all the other shipboard emergencies including lightning strikes etc than hitting a container.

There probably are not many types of cargo that has positive buoyancy exceeding container negative buoyancy.

Maybe a whole load of Doritos???

Containers often float with one corner up due to air trapped in the non opening end. I know the new containers are designed to let the air vent out, but there are still many thousands of old containers in circulation.

It seems an Australian pleasure boat is sunk every year due to hitting a container in the Southern Ocean. I'm not so sure you'd see one during the day, with eyes dead ahead, with the usual sea state.

psneeld said:

I would guess statistically, most of us over 60 are more likely to be in trouble from medical reasons, plus all the other shipboard emergencies including lightning strikes etc than hitting a container.

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We are younger but often have people aboard who are over 60. Even with all the equipment we have, training, phone access to emergency doctors and more, a serious medical issue is probably my greatest fear in boating and a fire on board would be second.

Stuff happens and I know that, but just don't want it to happen on our boat.

sunchaser said:

According to gcaptain there was an average of 1679 containers/yr lost at sea for the period 2008 through 2014. The number is increasing as more ships ply the oceans.

Unknown is the sink rate and duration afloat. Containers are metal so if afloat a foot or more should show up on radar. Except in a confused sea state maybe. Last big job I was on we moved about 15,000 containers, specified to be all metal for stacking and storage purposes. None were lost at sea but several were with contents trashed when opened.

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1679 is the total counting in catastrophic losses(sinkings). Majority of those go down with the ship. 546 annually wash overboard and make up the majority of the floaters. Still pretty small compared to total number shipped, roughly 120 million per year.

http://www.worldshipping.org/indust..._Lost_at_Sea_-_2014_Update_Final_for_Dist.pdf

A side note: I remember about ten or 12 years ago, Dale Chihuly, the famous glass artisan, was shipping several containers of his glass pieces somewhere in the world. One or more of the containers was lost at sea and presumed sunk.

CPseudonym said:

1679 is the total counting in catastrophic losses(sinkings). Majority of those go down with the ship. 546 annually wash overboard and make up the majority of the floaters. Still pretty small compared to total number shipped, roughly 120 million per year.

http://www.worldshipping.org/indust..._Lost_at_Sea_-_2014_Update_Final_for_Dist.pdf

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Could someone explain why the logistics and insurance industries tolerate containers washing overboard? Not questioning the ones that go down with the ship but it seems to me containers should be secured better so they won't overboard.

It cost less to buy the contents of 1,000 containers per year than to spend more time in port securing the load more. Realizing that you can only secure items to a point, they feel they've reached that point.

That's my best guess anyway.

CPseudonym said:

It cost less to buy the contents of 1,000 containers per year than to spend more time in port securing the load more. Realizing that you can only secure items to a point, they feel they've reached that point.

That's my best guess anyway.

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It's like Credit Card fraud. It's still cheaper to pay the fraud then stop it.

Interesting line in his video about his watertight bulkhead remaining intact and that he was not in danger (of swimming? of getting in his liferaft?). Where do you suppose his bulkhead was? Was the hatch in it closed? Certainly bulkheads would be the subject of much compromise: how many? how far from what supposed damage? how strong and how fixed to the boat (especially given the way that boat shattered)?, what closes the access doors? Given the small number of crew and the size of the boat, and the light displacement, would not foam flotation make sense? Cars have 'crumple zones' useful for generally frontal collisions and they're more or less rectangular in plan. Given that boats are usually pointy on the leading end, where would crumple (shatter) zones or hardening be useful?

At least those of us in antediluvian, thick old fiberglass and those of us in steel might like to imagine we're less vulnerable to collision than more modern, cored hulled boats.

Dashew's vessels are designed for rough sea duty including a specifically designed crash bulkhead for container strikes. With his vessel's designed cruising speeds above 10 knots the forces from a strike would be considerable.

I have seen a Nordhavn 76 that T boned a freighter off the CA coast. The N was moving at night at 7.5 knots. The N was in the "hospital" for many months dealing with structural damage.

Lost at sea happens. Always conjecture especially when weather was not an issue. Single handers who do 24/7s are a special breed.

Back in 2004 I was sailing back home from Bermuda. As dawn was breaking and we were just exiting the Gulf Stream approximately 30 miles ESE of the mouth of the Chesapeake bay we almost hit a house. Yes a house! It was mostly frame wood and a bit of a roof and we were about 20 feet from hitting it. Had we struck it probably would have holed the boat. I have no idea how it got there as we could not recall any recent storms. My best guess that it was a prefab house being shipped by barge and it was washed off. As I recall we didn't see any barnacles so it could not have been in the water too long. I wish we had taken pictures but all of us aboard were so awe struck that none of us thought about photos until we were too far away. At night who knows how many close calls a boat sailing in the ocean might have.

Paul M

Donsan said:

Could someone explain why the logistics and insurance industries tolerate containers washing overboard? Not questioning the ones that go down with the ship but it seems to me containers should be secured better so they won't overboard.

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Simple, the premium reflects expected loses. It's like car insurance for an 18 year old male, premium reflects historically documented loses.

Ted

Paul M said:

Back in 2004 I was sailing back home from Bermuda. As dawn was breaking and we were just exiting the Gulf Stream approximately 30 miles ESE of the mouth of the Chesapeake bay we almost hit a house. Yes a house! It was mostly frame wood and a bit of a roof and we were about 20 feet from hitting it. Had we struck it probably would have holed the boat. I have no idea how it got there as we could not recall any recent storms. My best guess that it was a prefab house being shipped by barge and it was washed off. As I recall we didn't see any barnacles so it could not have been in the water too long. I wish we had taken pictures but all of us aboard were so awe struck that none of us thought about photos until we were too far away. At night who knows how many close calls a boat sailing in the ocean might have.

Paul M

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I`m imagining the insurance claim had you hit it.....

Donsan said:

Could someone explain why the logistics and insurance industries tolerate containers washing overboard? Not questioning the ones that go down with the ship but it seems to me containers should be secured better so they won't overboard.

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a .001% loss in the property insurance world would be considered... quite profitable.