Milky oil velvet drive

Looking for Input in addition to replace oil cooler and flush oil a few times.
1987 Lehman 135- velvet drive 2:1, model 10-13xxxx with between 1300-2000 hours.
Had good survey in August of all oils but during 1300 mile delivery trip noticed port side tranny oilwas a little cloudier than starboard side oil and it needed topping off a couple times during that trip totaling maybe 20 oz

Kept an eye on it but checking after winterizing boat(in water) it was frothed milk like on a nice coffee drink.

Also I am missing finding drain. Can I use oil cooler hoses to flush oil in and out.

Eddie
47 Sea Ranger PH

Greetings,
Welcome aboard. I'm not sure if the VD's even have a drain. You may have to utilize the oil fill hole OR the hoses but NOT sure about the hoses. So wait until someone who actually knows confirms hose usage.

Probably have to replace or repair cooler.

We had water in our stbd vd 2:1s as you are describing. It was the oil cooler and we flushed the Trans fluid 3 times via the hoses. Quick run in between flushes to mix fluid around. I ended up needing to replace the clutch plates shortly after but i don't know if that was correlated. There wasn't any corrosion in there, the plate's had just worn.

When I rebuilt my velvet drive I was told that once water gets into the reverse cylinder, the only way to get it out is to turn the tranny upside down and let it drain out.
I don't have access to my rebuild manual file so I can't verify

For expert advice from a factory authorized repair center, contact Mike, in the service dept at:
Harbor Marine
1032 W Marine View Dr
Everett, WA 98201
425-259-3285

I have been told that water in the trans fluid comes from the trans oil cooler, and the cooler should be replaced ASAP. I also heard that the water damages the clutch discs, so an overhaul may be needed. I use copper-nickel coolers, as they last much longer than the copper ones.

I drain my Velvet Drive by removing the hose ( that goes to the lower fitting on the starboard side of the trans) at the cooler and using an oil change pump. You can also remove the hose at the lower fitting and drain into a pan if you can get a drain pan under the trans.

The fluid in my trans has always been a clear red/pink color with no milkyness at all. The hour meter shows 5000 hours, but I have only put on about 1500 of those. I change the fluid at about every 200 hours of use.

Consensus

Thanks for taking the time to reply. Consensus seems to be to choose lowest point(oil cooler hose) as best place to suck/drain oil with my little 12v oil change pump and flush through a gallon or so of oil after first flush until oil is clear. Boat is winterized in water so cannot run until spring. The mechanic I spoke with said he would normally repair/replace oil cooler and flush and that's all. Should be ok in the spring. I believe I spotted a new oil cooler in a spares bin in lazarette.
Eddie

So I have one of these and it sucked the life out of my velvet drive.

The cooler is shot as you know now. But the sooner you get the contaminiated fluid out and replace, the better. Corrosion is bad. mmmkay?

Eddie a Velvet Drive 10-13 is a very common transmission used behind Lehmans. The oil cooler is really the only way for water to get in there but you've already figured that out. There is no drain plug on those, the manual states to remove the lower hose to drain, but that's a pain and I find I can get at least as much out by pumping out of the fill port. Those really do hold over 4 qts but because of the "drop" reduction gear at the rear it's not possible to completely drain it. You'll be lucky to get 2 qts out. So after you replace the cooler I would strongly suggest you "change" the oil several times.

Ken

I removed the bottom hydraulic hose and installed a tee, hose in one hole on the tee and a plug in the other hole. Now just pull the plug to drain, easy now.

Need to drain and fill several times plus run it shifting between fwd and RVs each fill.
Water will be in clutches and unless forced will remain doing dAmage.
Do it properly and it should do fine. Other wise chance there will be damage.
Don,t wait for spring.

I would concur with C lectic. Definitely do it immediately, even if it takes a bit of hassle. I always service the engine/gearbox at the end of the cruising season so there's clean oil in the whole of the system over the winter.
For the non mechanically minded the reason is that during the engine 'warm up' period it produces tiny amounts of sulphuric acid (more so in a gas/petrol) engine which becomes present in the lubricating oil. On a working truck for example regular servicing flushes this out but on a boat lying up over winter the acidic oil can cause damage to the interior working parts.
For example a petrol/gas engine exhaust system will need changed every couple of years because of this corrosion.
If you're as tough as Tonka toys you can, at the end of the season, dip a little used oil on the end of your finger and taste it, you can taste the 'sharpness',now dip the finger in fresh oil and taste the difference.
Before the health and safety brigade roar into action I'm talking a minute amount, just sufficient to taste.
By the same token keep antifreeze in your system, even if you live in Florida, South of France or Sydney. Anti-freeze contains lubricants for your water pump and anti corrosives to protect the cylinder walls and waterways and prevent build up of internal rust. Flush the system once every 3 years with radiator cleaner to maintain in top condition. The reason ? it keeps the system clean and aids heat transfer by radiation from the cylinder walls for efficient cooling.
Forgive the lecture but if it helps someone, somewhere, on TF then I've achieved my purpose.

There may be a couple of problems that need addressing.

1) The trans oil cooler clearly needs replacement. Pull the zinc in the heat exchanger. If it's gone, then assume the engine oil cooler is close to failure. Flush the heat exchanger, replace both oil coolers. Make sure all coolers have a good metal to metal bond.

2) If you are adding oil, find out where the oil is going. Probably through the front seal into the bottom of the bell housing. Loosen up the bolts in the bell hsg and see if anything drips out. If so the tranny needs to be pulled and the front seal replaced.

-Gary

Do I need to run transmission

Headed to boat to change out trans cooler and flush oil. I was not planning to dewinterize to run motor/transmission although I'm sure it would aid in mixing up bad fluid to get better flushed. Any experience out there on how big a difference this would make?
Eddie

I would un-winterize engine and run the boat away from the dock. Do an oil change, run boat for 20min underway, shift a bunch of times, repeat. Change oil until fluid is crystal clear on stick. Then change a couple more times. You want all moisture out of there.

Any moisture in there is going to cause rust over layup period.

Those sucker bottles may quick work of draining. Once drained, briefly crank engine and shift FNR to blow what is in lines back to sump, then shut down and suck sump again. Then refill.

Even if you flush all the water out you may still need to rebuild the trans. Pull it while your boat sits this winter and be ready to cruise in the spring. Or go through all that and still have to pull it sometime in the near future. Rebuild trans is about three boat buck in fortLauderdale at marine transmission.

Boat is stored in water and completely shrinkwrapped. I can unwinterize but not going anywhere

Just do it dockside and let it tug on the lines.

Now that I can wrap my mind around unwinterizing that motor I agree that running that tranny so that gear pump is moving oil around should give it a better chance plus lots of gear oil.
Eddie

How about just taking the tranny out and drain and clean...or go full banana and have it serviced at a repair facility if not comfy yoyrself?

Tranny rebuild

After flushing 3 gallons of fresh tranny fluid through it is still milky. I was going to unwinterize and try running it in slip to better flush it out but have decided these things are too expensive to fool with and would rather do rebuild. My local independent transmission shop who is highly respected in community and has done work for me a couple times has stated $800 plus parts but hope that will be under $200 for rebuild kit.
I called and asked how much for Borg Warner velvet drive 72c 2:1. Instead of a never heard of it his response was I'll have to check with Harry but he does a few of those most years.
Doesn't seem out of line, so dragging out my assortment of come along, 1 ton chain hoist, truckers chains and saw horses to get this out of the engine room. Only thing I can't picture is if it's unbolted forward and aft does it have splined shaft that needs to be slid away from engine?
Just wondering.
Eddie Zuskin
Sea Ranger 47
Sent from my iPad

Greetings,
Atta boy Mr. Eddie. I agree with Mr. D. Good clean out and piece of mind. Watch your fingers and toes...

Spray all bolts/nuts with PB Blaster.
Move the prop shaft back a few inches,
support trans
unbolt from bell housing
Move straight back a couple of inches, up and out.

There is a short splined shaft that fits into damper plate.
If you move it back at an angle you might bugger up the damper hub.
(Same with reinstallation.)
Inspect the damper plate. $100 part and easy to replace once trans is out.

SoWhat,
That helps to know that I should be able to push prop shaft back a few inches, resolves the logistics of how to not pull out at an angle. In my pile of supplies I'm throwing together is a stack of various sized short 2x4s to build up under tranny. Also saw mention of using threaded rod to aid in lining up a couple holes on re install, I've done that with a couple engine head projects to not mess up a new head gasket.
Eddie

Yes, you can't take it out at an angle - straight back about 3" and it will disengage from the engine. If more than a couple thousand hours on it, most people recommend changing the damper plate while you're there. (The damper plate bolts to the engine flywheel and is what the transmission shaft actually engages into)

My engine had 2 studs which - left in - greatly aided re-installation. If you don't have those, a couple of pieces of 5" threaded rod will really help put it back in.

Ken

Second that about putting in a fresh damper plate, that's a wear item. Also new input shaft and output shaft seals. Input shaft seals seem to not last as long as rest of the gear and no fun dumping a sump load of fluid into the bilge, then burning up clutches.

Check reduction gear parts for wear. Check clutch condition. No need to rebuild, just clean up, inspect and reseal. These are robust gears and worth freshening up.

Eddieandgail said:

Only thing I can't picture is if it's unbolted forward and aft does it have splined shaft that needs to be slid away from engine?
Just wondering.
Eddie Zuskin
Sea Ranger 47
Sent from my iPad

Click to expand...

Yup, and the splines slides into the "damper plate" which looks a lot like a clutch plate. The damper plate bolts to the flywheel just as a clutch plate does. Gotta make sure you can slide the prop/shaft back far enough to pull the tranny out of the damper plate.

If installing a new damper plate consider a polyurethane unit. Much smoother, quieter and no rattling springs like the old style. Very pleased with mine

Got a friend to help me remove velvet drive after cooler failure and filled with milkshake oil. Interesting wrestling match getting it slid out along threaded rods to keep it level and boards underneath to keep it from dropping after clearing rods and still had a couple inches to spare of the 5" that prop shaft moved back. Got it between the 2 motors and a chain hoist into salon and on its way to Rehab.

A small oil puddle at bottom of Lehman bell housing so now will need to remove flywheel to replace rear engine seal. Further and further down the rabbit hole doing projects that are totally foreign. Anyone removed a flywheel and rear seal from SP135 Lehman?

Eddie