Rope to Chain Splice

Here is a picture of my rope to chain splice which is necessary to use on my windlass.

What do you guys think, will this hold? It doesn't look like a good way to hold a 25000 lb boat, but it was done by a profession as directed by the windlass manual.

I know of know other way to secure this splice, but would like to get some comments.

Mine is done exactly the same way.

Timjet,

Seems to actually be the norm now. I've not heard anything bad about the splice and anchor windlass manufacturers seem to think so too.

Eric

The splice NEW will hold...just make sure if you anchor a lot...you check that tight bend frequently for chafe....but it will hold at probably more than 50% of the*working load*for quite sometime and generally anchoring situations only require a fraction of the breaking strength.

I hope it holds!* It looks very similar to what I did myself with 3 strand.

*

Thanks guys, I just wanted to hear some feedback. Seems like the safety of me and the boat rests on a rather thin piece of nylon.

Yup,
looks like what was done on my previous boat for a combination chain/rope winch splice .

Check for chafe several times each year. Mine was fine when I sold the boat 4 yrs later.

I guess there is little choice if it has to pass thru a windlass chain rope drum.

WE anchor with almost all rope , so the really heavy chain is short , 5 ft or so , and is never seen by the windlass.

All chain IS used in coral, but we have been shoreside for a while.

The question then would be how easily can one select a different anchor , to better match the bottom?

Dual anchor rodes? Or a chain end swop???

Tim,

If you have a windlass like these you can have all the knots, splices of any type, shackles and most any other hardware imaginable on your anchor rode. You would be better off tying at the end of the float at the yacht club though. The rode I think is ideal is anchor, 4' of really heavy chain like studded type, 8' of extra heavy chain, 12' of heavy chain and the rest nylon line. With the drum winch you can have an anchor as heavy as you like too. And if you do'nt like hydraulics they are made in electric versions.

Eric


-- Edited by nomadwilly on Sunday 8th of January 2012 11:06:07 AM

nomadwilly wrote:
Tim,

If you have a windlass like these you can have all the knots, splices of any type, shackles and most any other hardware imaginable on your anchor rode. You would be better off tying at the end of the float at the yacht club though. The rode I think is ideal is anchor, 4' of really heavy chain like studded type, 8' of extra heavy chain, 12' of heavy chain and the rest nylon line. With the drum winch you can have an anchor as heavy as you like too. And if you do'nt like hydraulics they are made in electric versions.

Eric



-- Edited by nomadwilly on Sunday 8th of January 2012 11:06:07 AM

Click to expand...

*Not sure where I see the advantage of several types of chain when the weakest point in many systems is the connections..."possible" failure points.

Is the rope to chain splice in post #5 with a loop through the last link and then splice back into itself as posted by Baltimore Lurker the best way to go? Or an extended splice aka "warp to chain splice" which appears to have a lot more contact with the chain and has no loop or single weak point at the loop to chain join? Admittedly this latter way may have an issue with some winches.

BlueMoment - Articles

I'll try the link again..
www.bluemoment.com/warpchainsplice.html

psneeld,
Weak link here is not an issue. All components are much stronger than most any trawler. I think the second pic (prev. post) is of a rode employing a section of super heavy studded chain.
The advantage is that you get the weight of the rode concentrated on the anchor shank so the anchor's performance is enhanced. And at the same time you get a lot of stretch form lots of nylon line. For the first few feet it's customary to mount chain much oversized as weight close to the anchor. Many (perhaps most fishing boats in this area) use 3 descending sizes of chain about 30 to 50 feet long and then 2 or 300' of nylon line. But on yachts the windlass will only accept one size of chain so a reel winch is needed for the fishboat rig.
I think it's the best rode there is but the reel winch is expensive and requires a hydraulic pump to be mounted on the engine.

If anybody wants such a winch I have a big one that has chain and sprocket drive. I'd bring it to a Puget Sound TF member for $400. The hydraulic motor would probably need to be rebuilt. It's too big for Willy. See the picture at the bottom of my previous post.

We used 80' of chain spliced to 1/2' three-strand for years. I always worried about the splice chafing and so inpected it regulary but never saw a problem.

manyboats said:

psneeld,
Weak link here is not an issue. All components are much stronger than most any trawler. I think the second pic (prev. post) is of a rode employing a section of super heavy studded chain.
The advantage is that you get the weight of the rode concentrated on the anchor shank so the anchor's performance is enhanced. And at the same time you get a lot of stretch form lots of nylon line. For the first few feet it's customary to mount chain much oversized as weight close to the anchor. Many (perhaps most fishing boats in this area) use 3 descending sizes of chain about 30 to 50 feet long and then 2 or 300' of nylon line. But on yachts the windlass will only accept one size of chain so a reel winch is needed for the fishboat rig.
I think it's the best rode there is but the reel winch is expensive and requires a hydraulic pump to be mounted on the engine.

If anybody wants such a winch I have a big one that has chain and sprocket drive. I'd bring it to a Puget Sound TF member for $400. The hydraulic motor would probably need to be rebuilt. It's too big for Willy. See the picture at the bottom of my previous post.

Click to expand...

The weak links I were referrin g to would be multiple connection points that are more prone to corrosion/unfastening..not sheer strength.

There's two schools of thought on your multi-chain theory. The first says that weight in the rode in severe conditions is useless anyway as it all lifts off the bottom...the weight needs to be in the head/flukes.

The other thought is...if the weight of chain is used for catenary...then weight is more useful nearer the center of the deployed rode and away from the anchor..that's just pure physics...

Again small points...but that's why so mant boaters successfully use plain old small, all chain rodes for convenience, looks, etc...etc...

The extra shackles are oversized too.
If one concentrates the weight very close to the anchor shank there may be some catenary left. That's the theory ....sort of a hook shaped catenary so the cat is where it's needed.....at the anchor shank. I do'nt know anybody that knows for sure and I have'nt read about it. Most all the fishermen use the multi-sized chain around here but it could be just tradition. It's a rare fisherman that does not do as most other fishermen do. You say "that's just pure physics". Can you present anything to support that? I would think that w all chain more cat would result at the anchor than w one weight in the center. The cat w one weight at the center would be more V shaped and that would result in less cat at the ends. But I also suspect that the situation would be different if the rode were horizontal so the cat at the anchor may change w the angle (or scope) of the rode. I do'nt think anyone really knows about this but the fishermen may have experience that shows their weight bias on the rode makes a difference.
But I still think pleasure boaters use all small chain for connivence and fishermen use big chain close to the anchor and plenty of nylon for max performance. But I do agree the reel winch would look better on a tug boat.

Tmjet

...I'd say that's the way its done. Better to have too much than not enough.

Fernando

manyboats said:

The extra shackles are oversized too.
If one concentrates the weight very close to the anchor shank there may be some catenary left. That's the theory ....sort of a hook shaped catenary so the cat is where it's needed.....at the anchor shank. I do'nt know anybody that knows for sure and I have'nt read about it. Most all the fishermen use the multi-sized chain around here but it could be just tradition. It's a rare fisherman that does not do as most other fishermen do. You say "that's just pure physics". Can you present anything to support that? I would think that w all chain more cat would result at the anchor than w one weight in the center. The cat w one weight at the center would be more V shaped and that would result in less cat at the ends. But I also suspect that the situation would be different if the rode were horizontal so the cat at the anchor may change w the angle (or scope) of the rode. I do'nt think anyone really knows about this but the fishermen may have experience that shows their weight bias on the rode makes a difference.
But I still think pleasure boaters use all small chain for connivence and fishermen use big chain close to the anchor and plenty of nylon for max performance. But I do agree the reel winch would look better on a tug boat.

Click to expand...

Couldn't quickly find an example...but I've seen the calculation on other forums discussing anchoring... weight has the greatest amount of effect in the center of the rode...

That's why the recommendation for letting a sentinel/kellet down about half the length of a rode...an age old practice that is being downplayed and putting all the weight at the anchor.

psneeld wrote:
"weight has the greatest amount of effect in the center of the rode..." I assume you're talking about advantageous catenary. If that is true then small all chain would be the best rode....or even chain in the middle.

I've never heard of "the age old practice of letting the kellet down about half the length of the rode". I have a kellet I made and I plan to hook it to chain right next to the anchor. Hmmmm....... I wonder how to sort this out? Perhaps I'll get some very small chain and do some experiments. If what you say is true I should be using all chain and the fishermen do'nt know what they are doing. Could be though. Would sure simplify my anchoring. Perhaps Peter B could ask Rex about this?

Psneeld is correct. Thr right place for a kellet is as halfway down the rode as you can get it. The objective is not to add weight to the head of the anchor shank but to reduce the angle of the rode's pull on the anchor so the pull is more parallel to the bottom than angled up toward the boat which will try to lever the anchor out of the bottom. Sliding a kellet down to the anchor itself won't do this. Positioning the kellet as close to halfway down the rode will.

pnseeld's correctness is an opinion at this point w me but I intend to find the truth in the matter in time.

Sounds like a case for MythBusters! They'd do some scale modeling and apply scientific standards of physics and come up with the definitive answer for all time.

(Just don't ask them anything about aviation because, IMO, their analysis of birdproof aircraft windshields was a joke.)

MythBusters : Discovery Channel

Here's a pretty good article on catenary and kellets.

http://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/catenary.php

http://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/kellets.php

Very interesting article on kellets, thanks much for posting the link. Interesting how the position of the kellet improves different things: near the anchor to help the anchor hold better, halfway down the rode for increased shock absorption, closer to the boat for reduced swinging.

Of course most interesting is the final conclusion that a kellet doesn't make all that much difference in any situation. Which is good: one less thing to lug around.

It's too bad these articles were written bt Peter Smith. Eric wouldn't believe Smith if he wrote an article proving conclusively that two plus two equals four.

Marin said:

Of course most interesting is the final conclusion that a kellet doesn't make all that much difference in any situation. Which is good: one less thing to lug around.

Click to expand...

Yeah, especially with multiple anchors and rodes, as well as anchor buoy and snubber. Seems a boat's lazarette can never be big enough.

Here's some food for thought about sentinels...

anchoring boats using kellets, sentinels, Anchor Buddy anchor weights

I almost did'nt read the links when I saw the author was Peter Smith but I read them anyway

He says (but dos'nt prove) that the optimum placement of a kellet is much closer to the anchor than the boat but fails to mention that the kellet in extreme conditions actually increases the pull on the rode and makes the ground tackle in extreme conditions less effective than without it.

So he says that catenary does not help holding the boat in extreme conditions and only when using an extremely high holding power anchor. But rarely are we in extreme conditions so most all the time we would benefit from the kellet. Fishermen get into extreme conditions but do'nt use high holding power anchor's. Most yachtsmen use Claws and other non-super performing anchors and at shorter scopes than desirable. They would also benifit from the kellet.

But he did agree w me in that all chain rode is not at all an ideal rode. He agrees w what I've said many times ......that anchor rode weight is best spent at the anchor.

These two articles are as everything I have ever read by Peter Smith an advertisement made to look like a scientific report. There's a lot of fact and good stuff in both links but I'd like to see something more objective.

Hard to imagine that a 30-pound-or-so kellet would have a significant effect on an all-chain rode given the chain's already-heavy weight. A rope rode could be another matter, however.

psneeld,
Thanks. Another advertisement but good information none the less. According to them their kellets are wonderful. Just like according to Peter Smith Rocna anchors are wonderful. It seems that the best use of a kellet may be to dampen line shock.

No Marin. The most interesting thing Smith said and presented is that the anchor rode weight is best considerably closer to the anchor and that rode weight is best invested in the anchor. He also points out that catenary loses most of it's benefit only in extreme conditions w extremely high holding power anchors. He fails to point out that the weak link in anchoring IS the bottom and even w a high holding power anchor a poor bottom can make chain and kellets of great value. His theories are applicable only to 1. Use of an extremely high holding power anchor 2. Extremely high winds and a bottom w very good holding. You and I have never anchored in such conditions.

With any of the three conditions (above) a bit weak........ catenary achieved by optimum displacement of weight in the rode can have a profound effect on rode performance. Catenary and what brings higher anchor performance about may be best experienced while setting the anchor. Anchor rode weight concentration close to the anchor surely should have a profound and positive effect on setting performance.

Good point Mark but how are you going to deploy a kellet down a chain?

manyboats said:

Good point Mark but how are you going to deploy a kellet down a chain?

Click to expand...

The link at post #25 has a photo showing it being done.

Oh I think I remember the cupped shoe like thing that was on TF a year or so ago. It was a brass or bronze thing that I think should work w chain. Lots of things will slide down anchor line that would'nt w chain.