Capacity of 2 6-volt Batteries?

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Oldersalt

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2016
Messages
204
Location
USA
Vessel Name
Pacific Star
Vessel Make
1990 Grand Banks 32 #834
Just before selling me the boat, the PO installed a new house bank--6 6-volt golf cart-style batteries wired to make a bank of 3 12-volt batteries.

The 6-volt batteries are each rated at 230 Amp Hours.

I'm trying to determine/estimate the AH capacity of each 12-volt set. I have googled this and gotten widely varying answers.

1. Some say the combined capacity of 2 6-volt 230 AH batteries is still just 230 AH.

2. Some say it doubles to about 460 AH.

3. Some say it almost doubles, but with about a 25% loss, to maybe 345 or 350 AH.

Anybody actually know what the answer might be?

Thanks!
Oldersalt
1990 GB 36 "Pacific Star"
San Francisco
 
1. is the correct answer.

Two 6v in series for 12v, Ah rating stays 230.

Gang six up so each pair is paralleled, and three pairs are in series, and you get 12v and 3 x 230 for 690Ah
 
When you wire in series voltage increases, but Ah capacity stays the same. Two 6V 230Ah batteries wired in series = 230Ah @ 12V

When you wire in parallel Ah capacity increases and voltage stays the same. Four 6V 230Ah batteries wired in series/parallel = 460Ah @ 12V.

You have a series/parallel bank of: 690Ah
 
1. is the correct answer.

Two 6v in series for 12v, Ah rating stays 230.

Gang six up so each pair is paralleled, and three pairs are in series, and you get 12v and 3 x 230 for 690Ah

Correct. Maybe this thread will stay under 20 posts.:devil:
 
Correct. Maybe this thread will stay under 20 posts.:devil:

LOL, yeah , I don't agree with any of the other posters.
Due to internal resistance of all those different cells in the banks, you do not get all those amp hours, you always get less that you think you should get, and it varies depending on cell construction and internal battery resistances.:eek::facepalm:
 
LOL, yeah , I don't agree with any of the other posters.
Due to internal resistance of all those different cells in the banks, you do not get all those amp hours, you always get less that you think you should get, and it varies depending on cell construction and internal battery resistances.:eek::facepalm:

A 12 volt battery consists of six 2 volt cells wired in series. A six volt battery consists of three 2 volt cells wired in series.

Two six volt batteries wired in series consists of six 2 volt cells wired in series. The only difference between this and a 12 volt battery is that there are two separate cases.

The result is the same.
 
To add my 2 cents, theoritically it is 690Ah. Considering that you should not use your battery at more than 50% discharge, you have in reality 345Ah available which in 12v will represent 4140wh of energy.
 
Greetings,
Ya, but what about the anchor?

giphy.gif
 
Greetings,
Ya, but what about the anchor?

giphy.gif
Hope this won`t end with multi meters fired at 20 paces. You electrical guys should get together and agree on something. People are just getting confused.
 
Why 80%?

Good deep cycle golf cart batteries can often go below 50% and still have decent cycle spans...

Modern batteries, such as Odyssey, can be discharged to 20% of rated capacity without shortening their life span. State of the art batteries can be discharged even deeper.
 
Modern batteries, such as Odyssey, can be discharged to 20% of rated capacity without shortening their life span. State of the art batteries can be discharged even deeper.
OK.... I agree...just wasn't sure what you really meant.

The OP did say golf cart style batteries...my bet is flooded otherwise most people do state the more modern labels.
 
OK.... I agree...just wasn't sure what you really meant.

The OP did say golf cart style batteries...my bet is flooded otherwise most people do state the more modern labels.

Right. Besides, the question was, how many electrons I can squeeze out of the box. Not what will happen to the box afterwards.
 
LOL, yeah , I don't agree with any of the other posters.
Due to internal resistance of all those different cells in the banks, you do not get all those amp hours, you always get less that you think you should get, and it varies depending on cell construction and internal battery resistances.:eek::facepalm:

This is a good point but not for the reasons many may think. The "sticker rating" is just that, a quasi meaningless sticker/guide. It is nothing more than a suggested Ah capacity. It is often based on testing similar batteries from lots or production runs many, many years earlier. Some manufacturers even extrapolate or attempt to calculate Ah capacity from a 25A RC test, a shorter and less costly test, and you will only rarely get the rated Ah capacity from the battery especially if a proper break in & cycle-up is not done..

Batteries, especially deep cycle flooded batteries, also need to cycle-up to their capacity rating. This can take as many as 50-150 cycles before attaining the stickers Ah rating. Sadly many boaters abuse batteries to the point where they never get to cycle-up to their rated Ah capacity and large numbers of boaters totally destroy their batteries well before a full break in of 150 cycles can even occur.

AGM and GEL batteries cycle up to capacity faster, AGM in 3-7 cycles, and GEL in about 7-15 cycles but most flooded deep cycles need at least 25-50+ deep cycles to attain their Ah capacity rating and some as many as 150. Of course if you start PSOC cycling right off the bat, before the batteries break in & cycle-up, you'll never see rated Ah capacity..;)

If you know the capacity of each battery in the bank, and then wire them in parallel or series/parallel, as a bank, and apply a C/20 discharge rate at 77F you will get the total capacity of all batteries, but you need to know the actual capacity of each individual battery first...

Using a sticker rating is almost always misleading and inaccurate.

For round numbers most boaters & publications simply use the "sticker rating" which can certainly be extremely misleading and quite often inaccurate by as much as 5-25% off what the sticker suggests.
 
When you wire in series voltage increases, but Ah capacity stays the same. Two 6V 230Ah batteries wired in series = 230Ah @ 12V

When you wire in parallel Ah capacity increases and voltage stays the same. Four 6V 230Ah batteries wired in series/parallel = 460Ah @ 12V.

You have a series/parallel bank of: 690Ah


Thanks for clear and precise explanation.
Then if Ah capacity stays the same what is the good of having 6 x 6v batteries wired in series (actually my service battery bank) instead of 3 x 12v batteries wired in parallel?
 
what is the good of having 6 x 6v batteries wired in series (actually my service battery bank) instead of 3 x 12v batteries wired in parallel?
Cost and weight. The 6 volt batteries will each weigh much less (not quite half, but close) to what an equivalent 12 volt battery would weigh. Makes them easier to move around. Also, at least here in Florida, because of the huge market for 6 volt golf cart batteries, it is cheaper to get two 6 volt batteries than it is to get one, larger, 12 volt battery.

As to the series/parallel thing. I used to shop at a PAC-n-SAV store. You know, one of those warehouse stores kind of similar to Costco or Sam's Club. So I just remember pac-n-sav: Parallel Adds Current-n-Series Adds Voltage.
 
Thanks for clear and precise explanation.
Then if Ah capacity stays the same what is the good of having 6 x 6v batteries wired in series (actually my service battery bank) instead of 3 x 12v batteries wired in parallel?


Most 12V "marine" flooded batteries are simply cheap imposters and not a true deep cycle product. In other words they are deep cycle in name only.

I actually posed the below question to one of the major US battery manufacturers of both marine "deep cycle" and golf, RE and industrial deep cycle batteries:

Question asked by MarineHowTo.com:

"If the GC2, GC-12 or L16's were cycled using the same cycle life testing as the 12V Group 24, 27, 31 etc. what would that outcome, in cycle life, actually look like? Is it fair to suggest a GC2, GC12 or L16 battery has double to triple the lab cycle life, to 50% DOD, than the 12V 24, 27 & 31 "deep cycles" do?"


Senior Battery Engineer - Major US Battery Manufacturer:

"Yes, for packs of equivalent energy content (voltage * capacity) the Golf Car types and L16's are 2-3 times better than the DC automotive sizes (24, 27 and 31)."


A typical GC-2, or golf car battery, is intended and specifically designed for daily deep cycling where as a 12V Group 24, 27, 29, 30, 31 & most 4D and 8D flooded batteries (Rolls & Dyno being the only exception I know of) are really lightly built "dual purpose" automotive grade batteries that don't cycle nearly as well. Trojan puts their 12V "marine" batteries SCS-150 (G-24), SCS-200 (G-27) & SCS-225 (G-31) at just half the cycles of their T-105 or T1275 golf car batteries.

When buying batteries it is not just $$ per Ah it is cost per Ah plus expected cycle life that yields the best value. It's pretty hard to beat a 6V GC-2 battery in an Ah's to $$ to cycles number crunch game.

That said there are also 12V golf car and industrial sweeper scrubber batteries available too such as Trojan's J150, T1275 or J185 and East Penn, US Battery, Crown and others also offer a GC12 (golf car 12V) or J185 type form factor.

Another advantage of using series/parallel, to build capacity, is that you have less batteries wired in parallel which reduces your chances of an internal short leading to thermal run-away.

When you get frantic text messages like this, from your customers, you tend to think about these things more than a DIY..

163987400.jpg


Below is an example of a bank of 6 Trojan T1275's, 900Ah's of parallel 12V golf car batteries, that had one short internally (they were well beyond their useful life though). This means the owner had the inverter/charger plus 750 Ah's of parallel batteries all trying to charge the one battery that was now a 10V battery. 154F is simply dangerous!! :banghead:

While these deep cycle golf car batteries lasted an exceptional 6.5 years, on a 24/7/365 world cruising boat, I am not a big fan of this many batteries in parallel for this exact reason. This was not my design, wiring or installation, I inherited it. A series/parallel bank would have reduced the number of paralleled batteries that could thermally run away in the event of a cell shorting.

Sadly the marine charging industry has failed us on safely charging parallel batteries by supplying just one battery temp sensor per charger or charge source. A real joke and a travesty. While some do have the option of two temp sensors this is rare.

House load demands are getting larger and larger yet the marine charging industry has done NOTHING to address the safety issues of paralleled batteries such as temp sensor options for each battery..

162906329.jpg
 
I'd like to point out we've exceeded the 20 post threshold. These posts have been in series so no anchors have been harmed.
 
A typical GC-2, or golf car battery, is intended and specifically designed for daily deep cycling where as a 12V Group 24, 27, 29, 30, 31 & most 4D and 8D flooded batteries (Rolls & Dyno being the only exception I know of) are really lightly built "dual purpose" automotive grade batteries that don't cycle nearly as well...

Another advantage of using series/parallel, to build capacity, is that you have less batteries wired in parallel which reduces your chances of an internal short leading to thermal run-away.

CMS

Thanks for a clear an informative post!

Do the above statements hold true for comparable AGM's?

e.g. 2- GC2-AGM's in series a better choice than a 8D-AGM
(from a life standpoint - I realize there is a small difference in AH capacity)
 
Good point about risk of thermal runaway with paralleled batts with one getting a shorted cell. Seen the havoc from that first hand.
 
I'd like to point out we've exceeded the 20 post threshold. These posts have been in series so no anchors have been harmed.

Yes, and the OP's question was answered succinctly and accurate by Ski in the first response. Now the OP is probably confused as hell.

Welcome to internet forums. We can't help ourselves, can we.

David
 
Cost and weight. The 6 volt batteries will each weigh much less (not quite half, but close) to what an equivalent 12 volt battery would weigh. Makes them easier to move around. Also, at least here in Florida, because of the huge market for 6 volt golf cart batteries, it is cheaper to get two 6 volt batteries than it is to get one, larger, 12 volt battery.

As to the series/parallel thing. I used to shop at a PAC-n-SAV store. You know, one of those warehouse stores kind of similar to Costco or Sam's Club. So I just remember pac-n-sav: Parallel Adds Current-n-Series Adds Voltage.

Interesting information. Thank you !
Sadly we don't have Costco here in France but I have a Costco card for when I'm in the US.
 
Most 12V "marine" flooded batteries are simply cheap imposters and not a true deep cycle product. In other words they are deep cycle in name only.

I actually posed the below question to one of the major US battery manufacturers of both marine "deep cycle" and golf, RE and industrial deep cycle batteries:

Question asked by MarineHowTo.com:

"If the GC2, GC-12 or L16's were cycled using the same cycle life testing as the 12V Group 24, 27, 31 etc. what would that outcome, in cycle life, actually look like? Is it fair to suggest a GC2, GC12 or L16 battery has double to triple the lab cycle life, to 50% DOD, than the 12V 24, 27 & 31 "deep cycles" do?"


Senior Battery Engineer - Major US Battery Manufacturer:

"Yes, for packs of equivalent energy content (voltage * capacity) the Golf Car types and L16's are 2-3 times better than the DC automotive sizes (24, 27 and 31)."


A typical GC-2, or golf car battery, is intended and specifically designed for daily deep cycling where as a 12V Group 24, 27, 29, 30, 31 & most 4D and 8D flooded batteries (Rolls & Dyno being the only exception I know of) are really lightly built "dual purpose" automotive grade batteries that don't cycle nearly as well. Trojan puts their 12V "marine" batteries SCS-150 (G-24), SCS-200 (G-27) & SCS-225 (G-31) at just half the cycles of their T-105 or T1275 golf car batteries.

When buying batteries it is not just $$ per Ah it is cost per Ah plus expected cycle life that yields the best value. It's pretty hard to beat a 6V GC-2 battery in an Ah's to $$ to cycles number crunch game.

That said there are also 12V golf car and industrial sweeper scrubber batteries available too such as Trojan's J150, T1275 or J185 and East Penn, US Battery, Crown and others also offer a GC12 (golf car 12V) or J185 type form factor.

Another advantage of using series/parallel, to build capacity, is that you have less batteries wired in parallel which reduces your chances of an internal short leading to thermal run-away.

When you get frantic text messages like this, from your customers, you tend to think about these things more than a DIY..

Below is an example of a bank of 6 Trojan T1275's, 900Ah's of parallel 12V golf car batteries, that had one short internally (they were well beyond their useful life though). This means the owner had the inverter/charger plus 750 Ah's of parallel batteries all trying to charge the one battery that was now a 10V battery. 154F is simply dangerous!! :banghead:

While these deep cycle golf car batteries lasted an exceptional 6.5 years, on a 24/7/365 world cruising boat, I am not a big fan of this many batteries in parallel for this exact reason. This was not my design, wiring or installation, I inherited it. A series/parallel bank would have reduced the number of paralleled batteries that could thermally run away in the event of a cell shorting.

Sadly the marine charging industry has failed us on safely charging parallel batteries by supplying just one battery temp sensor per charger or charge source. A real joke and a travesty. While some do have the option of two temp sensors this is rare.

House load demands are getting larger and larger yet the marine charging industry has done NOTHING to address the safety issues of paralleled batteries such as temp sensor options for each battery..

This is a professional and VERY helpful demonstration, well documented by print shot and photo of true critical situations which facilitates my understanding. Thanks a lot CMS for this great statement !

So, if I understood you correctly, the configuration should be :
- Still my 6 v batteries (for start and service banks) wired in series/parallel.
- At least 1 temp sensor by battery bank. which I don't have yet.

Current configuration aboard is :

- Battery charger : Cristec CPS2 / 12 volts 60 Amperes (no temp sensor). 3 separate outputs with integrated distributor. Each output can be used on its won and supply the entire current.

- Batteries :
- BAT D (2x6v Lifeline AGM GPL-6FT / Amp hour capacity @ 20 Hour rate 300, for engines start bank. Engines are 2x 300 hp Cats 3116 TA .
- BAT 1 (6x6v Varta GC2_3 / 232 Amp (c20) 183 Amp(c5) for service bank.
- BAT 2 (1x12v Varta AGM / 74 Ah 680A for generator Onan 7.5 kW.

- Cristec CSP2 batteries display monitor at lower helm.
 
Good point about risk of thermal runaway with paralleled batts with one getting a shorted cell. Seen the havoc from that first hand.

I have had this happen twice, but nothing dramatic.
All batteries I have seem to eventually fail with shorted cells.
Symptoms, they may get warm, and may boil out acid but not enough of a short to explode.
For me, they would run down the parallel battery, but the short must be small enough the DC charger can put in enough power to prevent that.

Last time I discovered when I had the charger off for a few days, and all the batteries disconnected for some work on the battery tray.
 
I'd like to point out we've exceeded the 20 post threshold. These posts have been in series so no anchors have been harmed.

Just for reference, when exceeding the 20 posts, should one use a CQR, Danforth? Exactly which is the preferred anchor for a post-20 post? :socool:
 
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