What are the top 5 red flags in buying a used trawler?

Just curious, open ended question - again, a newbie here, but have owned quite a few smaller boats, and of course a few cars and houses - as I am going through the shopping process for a bigger boat, I think for fit and finish, applicability for my purposes, most of the mechanical systems - I have good radar on.. but what **are** the top "oh crap I should not have purchased this boat" risks?

Bad, rotten, decks under old teak.
leaking fuel tanks.
Engine and transmission condition.
Major blisters in hull.

Its all just money. Get a good idea of what it will cost to make the repairs and upgrades whether you do it yourself or pay to have it done. Set up a spreadsheet. Sometimes the cheaper boat is not! Set your budget and keep emotions out of the equation.

Motors can be replaced, decks can be replaced, electrical, plumbing, interiors can be replaced. Hell, you can replace a bottom if you want. Its all just money.

The biggest problem seems to arise from optimistic buyers under estimating the cost of the repairs.

Good luck

Leaking wood window frames that have rotted walls.
Bare steel fuel tanks.
Aluminum water or waste tanks.
Any boat with a Volvo engine.

Ted

Marine Survey 101 may be of some use.

O C Diver said:

Leaking wood window frames that have rotted walls.
Bare steel fuel tanks.
Aluminum water or waste tanks.
Any boat with a Volvo engine.

Ted

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Ditto

I head almost immediately to the engine room. For me, its condition is a tell-tail indicator of how well overall a boat is cared for at that point in time, and a probable indicator of overall condition. In my mental scoring, an ER is WAY up there in points value.

JMHO

If you are looking at 30-40 year old boat, you can expect to have a few issues. Especially if you are looking for a bargain.

Leaky teak decks with a bad core underneath was the one that I didn't want to tackle no matter how low the price was.

I did settle for an small old Volvo engine, knowing I'd have to replace it soon. It lasted a year (about what I expected) It was much cheaper than replacing big twins.

Unexpectedly, I had to replace the stainless fuel tanks as well, but that was fairly cheap & easy with the engine out.

Bad seacocks tend to put me off as well. Not overly expensive but a sign of poor maintenance overall.

5 items before you step onboard?

Actually, I'm serious. Unless you want a project, assume you want a boat that's been taken care of? Look for rust, bad varnish, frayed mooring lines, cracks in windows, mould, cracks in Gelcoat, bottom condition, dinghy condition, rigging, too much bird sh*t...look for signs of neglect. If you can see some, guaranteed there is lots you can't see.

Look for a log book and see what maint has been done.

Look for PM , engine oil (diesel) changed or ignored for years?

A decade of oil sample results is a good sign.

Look at the ground tackle , easy to tell if the boat is a cruiser or a cottage.

Boats that are used frequently have fewer hassles than stationary dock queens.

Look what would need to be done if the fuel tank/s needed to be replaced and like others have said, look around winds for leaks/wood rot.

We had a tank leak shortly after taking ownership, that really got blood to rust to your head, specially if you stretched the finances to get it. In addition moved couch and I could put my hand through the interior wood wall.

Thanks for all the replies, good stuff and makes total sense. I am wondering, perhaps this is slightly off the original topic, but it doesn't seem to me that boat sellers discount end-of-life engines enough. So yes I know some low hp : displacement diesels will go 6000+ hours but as I buyer I think past 4K (or less for forced induction) and I'm thinking I'll replace it/them in a year and I'm thinking $20-$30K for twins, and what the boat price discount appears to be is more like 10K. Don't know if that makes any sense, I guess my point is... Even well cared for I'm thinking high engine hours as a type of deferred maintenance and I'm seeing way more value in lower hour offerings.

O C Diver said:

Leaking wood window frames that have rotted walls.
Bare steel fuel tanks.
Aluminum water or waste tanks.
Any boat with a Volvo engine.

Ted

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Lepke said:

Ditto

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Glad I'm not the only one that doesn't like Volvo. Had three of them... never again. They are not a friendly company.

AusCan said:

If you are looking at 30-40 year old boat, you can expect to have a few issues. Especially if you are looking for a bargain.

Leaky teak decks with a bad core underneath was the one that I didn't want to tackle no matter how low the price was.

I did settle for an small old Volvo engine, knowing I'd have to replace it soon. It lasted a year (about what I expected) It was much cheaper than replacing big twins.

Unexpectedly, I had to replace the stainless fuel tanks as well, but that was fairly cheap & easy with the engine out.

Bad seacocks tend to put me off as well. Not overly expensive but a sign of poor maintenance overall.

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AusCan,

Totally agree with this. General signs of poor maintenance, even the little thing, mean a lot. Also, doing you own boat survey for starters works pretty well. And if all is ok you can hire a real surgery if you wish, but more important is specific mechanics that KNOW the engines, systems, electronics.

Seevee said:

Glad I'm not the only one that doesn't like Volvo. Had three of them... never again. They are not a friendly company.

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I'm actually already really picky about diesel brands..spent a lot of time around heavy equipment back in the day. I like Cats and Cummins. Have no idea on marine side but they are solid off the water for sure.

kev_rm said:

I'm actually already really picky about diesel brands..spent a lot of time around heavy equipment back in the day. I like Cats and Cummins. Have no idea on marine side but they are solid off the water for sure.

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I should make a correction and state that my Volvo experience was with gas engines. However, as a company, I've found parts hard to get, very expensive and difficult to get good tech support.

As for the diesels, I've never owned a diesel boat, but spend a fair amount of time on them. Cummins and Cats seem to have good reputations.

Ditto on Volvo...if I had only known that 16 years ago.

kev_rm said:

Thanks for all the replies, good stuff and makes total sense. I am wondering, perhaps this is slightly off the original topic, but it doesn't seem to me that boat sellers discount end-of-life engines enough. So yes I know some low hp : displacement diesels will go 6000+ hours but as I buyer I think past 4K (or less for forced induction) and I'm thinking I'll replace it/them in a year and I'm thinking $20-$30K for twins, and what the boat price discount appears to be is more like 10K. Don't know if that makes any sense, I guess my point is... Even well cared for I'm thinking high engine hours as a type of deferred maintenance and I'm seeing way more value in lower hour offerings.

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I can't speak for Volvo. CATS, Cummins, Lehman etc. will last a whole lot longer than that if properly maintained and run. 15 to 20 thousand hours and maybe more can be achieved with proper maintenance.

kev_rm said:

Thanks for all the replies, good stuff and makes total sense. I am wondering, perhaps this is slightly off the original topic, but it doesn't seem to me that boat sellers discount end-of-life engines enough. So yes I know some low hp : displacement diesels will go 6000+ hours but as I buyer I think past 4K (or less for forced induction) and I'm thinking I'll replace it/them in a year and I'm thinking $20-$30K for twins, and what the boat price discount appears to be is more like 10K. Don't know if that makes any sense, I guess my point is... Even well cared for I'm thinking high engine hours as a type of deferred maintenance and I'm seeing way more value in lower hour offerings.

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I think you are probably oversimplifying engine condition as a function of hours. Lack of use can be as damaging to engines just as heavy use. Piston rings start rusting to the cylinder wall, rubber seals dry rot, etc. The number of engine hours also fails to reveal how they were run, was the engine(s) run at WOT 90% of the time, were they run hot, were they under loaded. Most recreational boaters don't put enough hours on engines to wear them out, they are more likely to fail from neglect, failed cooling systems and/or abuse.

You really need an engine survey to figure out the condition and use this information at the bargaining table.

kev_rm said:

Thanks for all the replies, good stuff and makes total sense. I am wondering, perhaps this is slightly off the original topic, but it doesn't seem to me that boat sellers discount end-of-life engines enough. So yes I know some low hp : displacement diesels will go 6000+ hours but as I buyer I think past 4K (or less for forced induction) and I'm thinking I'll replace it/them in a year and I'm thinking $20-$30K for twins, and what the boat price discount appears to be is more like 10K. Don't know if that makes any sense, I guess my point is... Even well cared for I'm thinking high engine hours as a type of deferred maintenance and I'm seeing way more value in lower hour offerings.

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My 1971 Perkins 6-354, 165hp, turbo went 20,000hrs before I rebuilt it and even then it didn't absolutely need it .... it probably would have went another 2,000-4,000 but that miniscule little slap in #6 drove me nuts.

Ask the seller or the broker, "How long has the boat been on the market?" If more than a year, ask what is the history of the asking price, what reductions?
Ask if any other offers have been made. Ask if any survey and sea trials have been done and if so, why did the boat not sell after a survey. If a survey was done what items have been fixed or repaired?

My red flags are:


Water stains anywhere

Dirty, rusty or oily ER

Poor engine starting, smoke or performance.

These indicate potential big problems not immediately apparent. Other stuff is usually visible. Such as bad canvas, obsolete electronics need for polish etc.

Spongy decks
Leaky windows
Excessive eXhaust smoke after warmup, blue, black, grey, or white.
Unchecked Engine oil drips.
Strong smell of diesel fuel in cabin
Extra credit for wire nuts


Here is a practice exercise: What's wrong with this picture?

1. It's fugly. Resist buying an ugly boat. No matter what the price. You cannot fix an ugly sheer.
2. The interior is covered in knick-knacks. Probably doesn't move under its own power much. It's really a floating cabin. Systems may or may not work.
3. It stinks. Rotting wood has a distinct smell. Diesel smell may mean bad tankage. Leaky tanks would be a deal killer for me.
4. Rats nest of electrical. Builder didn't care. Owner didn't care. It is a pain and expensive to redo.
5. Corrosion. dirt, and sludge in the engine compartment. Sludge means it had it oil changed at least once though.

When you narrow your search down, find the owners fora of that particular boat and get to know their specific weak spots. Me, I'm lusting after the late 70's early 80's Hatteras models. I know to look for delamination in foredecks and FB deck. Other models may have leaky teaky decks, steel tanks, poor electrical systems. All model specific.

And yes, then there's the general signs. Dirty engine room, flag. No records, flag. Signs of water damage around windows, flag. Outdated emergency equipment, flag. And so on and so forth.

1. Leaking decks
2. Leaking windows
3. Leaking tanks (fuel, water or holding)
4. Rare engines or engine parts (Iveco, Volvo, Hino, odd genset)
5. Ignored interior or exterior coverings (upholstry, canvas)

I bought mine as a 30 year old 'turnkey' boat, and it was truly turnkey. Everything worked as advertised when I bought her. The ongoing repairs, mods, upgrades and improvements made to a 'turnkey' boat will keep you busy for years. I can't imagine the extra work and delayed enjoyment of a boat that needs extensive work to enjoy.

Today after 10 years of ownership, she's a 40 year old vintage turnkey boat. When I turn the key, I expect everything to work. If it doesn't, it gets addressed quickly. (usually by my go-to mechanic, yours truly) After 10 years of enjoyment, the varnish needs some attention, especially my doors, but that doesn't diminish my enjoyment of the boat. When it does, I'll break out the sandpaper and varnish.

Incidentally, when I bought my 30 yr old boat, the twin Perkins 4.236 engines had 2200 hrs. Today they have almost 3300 hrs. I have little doubt that they will last another 30+ years.

kev_rm said:

I'm actually already really picky about diesel brands..spent a lot of time around heavy equipment back in the day. I like Cats and Cummins. Have no idea on marine side but they are solid off the water for sure.

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Add John Deere to the list. Great history on land, lots of engines on the water between JD, Lugger, Northern Lights.

Ted

Red flags worth concern on an old boat are IMO ...
Water damage (roof, decks, cabin around windows, decks or/and base hull stringers).
Old fuel tanks.
Old engine.
Blisters.
I know that's not 5 but if those four flags are green the boat's worth a look if the design is good. But if you ask here what brands are a good design everybody will say "buy one like mine". And nobody will list the faults as 90% of those owners will never be your friend again. So all the opinions on boat design will be positive and likely what you need to know won't be said.

High Wire said:

Spongy decks
Leaky windows
Excessive eXhaust smoke after warmup, blue, black, grey, or white.
Unchecked Engine oil drips.
Strong smell of diesel fuel in cabin
Extra credit for wire nuts


Here is a practice exercise: What's wrong with this picture?

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Ok, well, WTF is in the bilge to start with.. then two missing hose clamps, two wrong hose clamps, loose wire (?)...

O C Diver said:

Add John Deere to the list. Great history on land, lots of engines on the water between JD, Lugger, Northern Lights.

Ted

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Ha funny you should mention that just did not think JD had marine applications. I Have a 1974 48hp John Deere tractor. It is the absolute best. I do nothing to it except change the oil. It starts **every** time and I run it literally at full throttle for hours a day and it never misses a beat. They are great engines.