I quit lurking...

... and finally registered, as I have some questions.

I've been having "loop dreams" for the past five or so years now and I work across the street where the AGLCA have their spring rendezvous for the last couple of years. I also have a pretty good view of ICW mile marker zero, so I am reminded every day that I am not yet on the loop.

Before I do that, I want to do some weekend cruising on the Chesapeake Bay which brings me to my first question: What would be some decent boat types to sort of step up from my 18 foot runabout as an interim before I go for the Trawler?

I know this question is loaded and almost presents the type of "what anchor is best" scenario, but I am looking for opinions and leads. My boat before this was a 30 Catalina that I sailed between San Diego and Long Beach many times.

The weekend type Chesapeake Bay cruising may require schedules that leads me to believe I might need something more than 8 or 9 knots.

Welcome aboard as a registered member. The planning sounds reasonable, and probably you will get lots of constructive suggestions.

Welcome to TF, Dawg!

As for your question about an interim cruiser, have you thought about a larger Bayliner, with diesel power and comfortable overnight capability? Lots of people seem to like the 32s, for example. Not exactly rocket ships, but economical at trawler speeds and able to get up and go when you need to get your hustle on.

Golly, I envy your view of Marker Zero!

Blissboat said:

Welcome to TF, Dawg!

As for your question about an interim cruiser, have you thought about a larger Bayliner, with diesel power and comfortable overnight capability? Lots of people seem to like the 32s, for example. Not exactly rocket ships, but economical at trawler speeds and able to get up and go when you need to get your hustle on.

Golly, I envy your view of Marker Zero!

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The view is very frustrating as I want to quit watching and start doing...


I've looked at the 32xx and 38xx and they look good. I just don't want to become transfixed on some particular model.

I forgot a requirement or two. I have two teenage boys, one's in college, the other is in high school. I need one extra berth during the non-summer months that still have decent weather and will need two during the summer when my oldest is home from WVU. They can NOT bunk together as fists fly around three AM! (Been there, done that in a small cabin off of skyline drive.)

The need will be for about 3-5 years if all goes well, so it's possible that Sundancer type boat might even get the job done.

SeadawgVB said:

The view is very frustrating as I want to quit watching and start doing...


I've looked at the 32xx and 38xx and they look good. I just don't want to become transfixed on some particular model.

I forgot a requirement or two. I have two teenage boys, one's in college, the other is in high school. I need one extra berth during the non-summer months that still have decent weather and will need two during the summer when my oldest is home from WVU. They can NOT bunk together as fists fly around three AM! (Been there, done that in a small cabin off of skyline drive.)

The need will be for about 3-5 years if all goes well, so it's possible that Sundancer type boat might even get the job done.

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Sundancer can do it well. Even some of the smaller ones claim to sleep six which is basically what you need for you and the two sons. They do it by converting the area where the table and dining area is.

Mainship and Bayliner are excellent options. Grand Banks. Carver. Sabre. Hinckley.

Then any of the smaller trawler types.

BandB said:

Sundancer can do it well. Even some of the smaller ones claim to sleep six which is basically what you need for you and the two sons. They do it by converting the area where the table and dining area is.

Mainship and Bayliner are excellent options. Grand Banks. Carver. Sabre. Hinckley.

Then any of the smaller trawler types.

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I think the Grand Banks (Europa?) is where I want to get to. My wife and I got on a Mainship 35 a few weeks back in Deltaville which kind of moved this to the front burner.

I did stumble across David Pascoe's web site, and he made me very nervous about any boat that isn't "Hatteras" type price / quality, which is why I wanted to post these questions here.

What exactly are the "smaller trawler types"?
Although, my thought was, since I'm not yet retired, I will be under a schedule and will need to be back to home port at a particular time and may need to get back before the storm clouds blow in or possibly thru some heavy weather. (I have been out in the Pacific in true 85 foot seas on a much larger vessel so I am keenly aware of weather avoidance.)

Dave

Greetings,
Mr. SVB. Welcome aboard. You mention Pascoe's site...A LOT of good information there BUT his apparent, extreme bias, in some cases, is too much for me to take. Read what he states with at least a grain of salt.

Yes, there ARE certain makes and models with "weak" points (leaky Taiwanese windows for example) but I would suggest you narrow down your search to models that appeal to you and your circumstances and then find the most suitable, in terms of condition and price that will satisfy your current needs. That being said, I've heard the phrase "Buy your last boat first" so an "interim" vessel may not be in the cards...Just sayin'.

lots of looking

SeadawgVB said:

... and finally registered, as I have some questions.

I've been having "loop dreams" for the past five or so years now and I work across the street where the AGLCA have their spring rendezvous for the last couple of years. I also have a pretty good view of ICW mile marker zero, so I am reminded every day that I am not yet on the loop.

Before I do that, I want to do some weekend cruising on the Chesapeake Bay which brings me to my first question: What would be some decent boat types to sort of step up from my 18 foot runabout as an interim before I go for the Trawler?

I know this question is loaded and almost presents the type of "what anchor is best" scenario, but I am looking for opinions and leads. My boat before this was a 30 Catalina that I sailed between San Diego and Long Beach many times.

The weekend type Chesapeake Bay cruising may require schedules that leads me to believe I might need something more than 8 or 9 knots.

Click to expand...

You need to do lots of looking and talking to folks who boat/cruise. I too live in Tidewater (Hampton). IF you want to see an Ocean Alexander two cabin, two head trawler, let me know.

Gordon

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Mr. SVB. Welcome aboard. You mention Pascoe's site...A LOT of good information there BUT his apparent, extreme bias, in some cases, is too much for me to take. Read what he states with at least a grain of salt.

.

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"Extreme bias" is an understatement. So much so that I find his site not only useless but less than useless in that it gives so many impressions that while they may be true of the one boat he examined, are far from typical for the brand.

BandB said:

"Extreme bias" is an understatement. So much so that I find his site not only useless but less than useless in that it gives so many impressions that while they may be true of the one boat he examined, are far from typical for the brand.

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Pray tell, where do you come by your superior insight into what is "typical for the brand"? Surveyed more boats than Pascoe?

Seems a very unfair shot to me. Pascoe certainly had strong opinions, but borne of genuine experience.

Cottontop said:

Pray tell, where do you come by your superior insight into what is "typical for the brand"? Surveyed more boats than Pascoe?

Seems a very unfair shot to me. Pascoe certainly had strong opinions, but borne of genuine experience.

Click to expand...

It was an opinion. I haven't surveyed boats, been on a few, talked to many others who I consider more unbiased than Pascoe. I've read dozens of his reviews. I find some entertaining, some informative, but I do find them extremely biased. He would probably be proud of that bias, I don't know. But mine was an opinion as is his. I don't value his reviews highly. I'm sure he wouldn't value mine at all. My only important point would be not to base one's evaluation or decision on Pascoe alone, or any other single reviewer. His is one opinion. You may or may not agree with it and may or may not find the same in a boat of the same brand.

BandB said:

It was an opinion. I haven't surveyed boats, been on a few, talked to many others who I consider more unbiased than Pascoe. I've read dozens of his reviews. I find some entertaining, some informative, but I do find them extremely biased. He would probably be proud of that bias, I don't know. But mine was an opinion as is his. I don't value his reviews highly. I'm sure he wouldn't value mine at all. My only important point would be not to base one's evaluation or decision on Pascoe alone, or any other single reviewer. His is one opinion. You may or may not agree with it and may or may not find the same in a boat of the same brand.

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Can you recommend any unbiased reviewers? I'm not picking a fight; I'm really asking. Magazines that are running an ad for the boat being reviewed that month? Internet posters ("my boat is wonderful, and btw for sale")? Internet sites with sponsorship?

At least, it seems to me, Pascoe was independent. He claims to have conducted more than 5,000 surveys. He did not post all of them. So what he posted was a selection. How did he select? Worst case? Best case? Typical of the brand? Top of his desk? I don't know. But having posted one survey of a model does not imply he only was on one of those boats. The problem with his site, IMHO, is the information is getting stale. I wish he was still active. Here's his bio:

David Pascoe
Marine Surveyor(Retired)


Biography
David Pascoe has performed over 5,000 marine surveys, both pleasure craft and commercial.

He was born in Cleveland, Ohio where he began training as a marine surveyor with his father's firm of Lovell, Pascoe & Botton at the age of sixteen. There, he trained in pleasurecraft and commercial marine, as well as general insurance adjusting in the years 1965 through 1972. He gained experience with yachts, cargo - including commodities, and bulk cargoes - as well as CGL and seaman's injury claims. In 1971 he was appointed as a Correspondent to the American Institute of Marine Underwriters and was certified by the National Association of Marine Surveyors in 1973.

The firm opened a Fort Lauderdale office where he was transferred in 1972 and developed a specialization in yachts. He spent several years as an Official Measurer for the North American Yacht Racing Union and then spent two years studying with the Westlawn School of Yacht Design. He crewed extensively on the ocean racing circuit, including the notable maxi-racers WINDWARD PASSAGE and SOUTHERN STAR.

Among his major construction projects were the supervision of the 106' Denison "ASTRA DEE," the 96' Broward "FELICITY" and 98' Custom yacht "BLACK SHEEP." In addition, he has been involved with refits on numerous smaller boats and yachts.

His work has led to extensive travels throughout the U.S. Bahamas, Caribbean, South America and to Japan and the Pacific Rim where he performed survey work for a major Japanese Company.

David Pascoe has been a guest lecturer at Florida International University on the subject of marine surveying in 1989 and 1990 and is the author of many magazine articles over the years. He traveled to Japan in 1993 at the invitation of Nippon Ocean Racing Committee (NORC), where he gave an address titled "Marine Surveying in the U.S."

He is a former South Atlantic Regional Vice President of the National Association of Marine Surveyors.

David Pascoe is the author and publisher of books: "Surveying Fiberglass Power Boats" (2001), "Buyers' Guide to Outboard Boats" (2002), "Mid Size Power Boats" (spring 2003) and "Marine Investigations" (Nov. 2004).

In September 2005, "Surveying Fiberglass Power Boats" 2nd Edition was published.

In 2012, David Pascoe has retired from marine surveying business at age 65.

Last updated March 25,2014.

Cottontop said:

Can you recommend any unbiased reviewers? I'm not picking a fight; I'm really asking. Magazines that are running an ad for the boat being reviewed that month? Internet posters ("my boat is wonderful, and btw for sale")? Internet sites with sponsorship?

At least, it seems to me, Pascoe was independent. He claims to have conducted more than 5,000 surveys. He did not post all of them. So what he posted was a selection. How did he select? Worst case? Best case? Typical of the brand? Top of his desk? I don't know. But having posted one survey of a model does not imply he only was on one of those boats. The problem with his site, IMHO, is the information is getting stale. I wish he was still active. Here's his bio:

.

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I know his biography. At some point he migrated from surveyor to writer. I don't know how that impacted what he wrote or published. As to other reviewers that aren't biased? I don't know any who publish who are not. David Pascoe is trying to sell books, but at least has no allegiance to the manufacturer. I have never read a bad review. I do with all reviews like I do with his reviews, I try to find concrete information that may be of value to me. Sometimes it's the smallest thing the reviewer let's slip in. Most of the time it's just more information on the boat. But every reviewer for magazines and web sites is not wanting to hurt themselves with the builder.

As to reviewing used boats I think it's far more difficult to give a fair assessment. Every boat reflects the build but also reflects the care and maintenance. I'll give a personal example. I have a friend who was convinced he wanted an Albin. He looked and looked. He traveled. Every boat he saw had major problems, structural in nature, whether hull or deck or both. Now, I know there are those here who have Albin's and are very happy with them. Some did have to do major work on them. I suspect newer Albin's are also much different than the ages he was looking at. So even though I am aware of 6-8 Albin's out there with problems, I'm not going to condemn the brand, but I will just warn anyone looking to be sure to check them carefully and get a good survey.

One thing we all have to be careful of is applying different years or models to other years or models. A couple of reviews. Unless I've overlooked them, I don't see Bayliner. I do see Sea Ray and it's pretty far from my experiences owning Sea Ray and the others I've known and talked to. I don't swear Sea Ray is perfect, but some of the issues he points out are old and some are just neglect. I can show you similar Sea Rays in excellent condition. However, he's also pretty relentless against Mercruiser. Well, I owned Mercruisers and was on a lake with hundreds, perhaps thousands. The general consensus and my experience are far different from what he reports. At some point it just seems like he has a strong dislike of Brunswick and that's fine, but there are more happy Sea Ray owners than any other brand. Similarly he just destroys Mainship in his review. Again, some of it seems like poor care to me. Other just not what I've heard. I know there are many very happy Mainship owners on this site. So, I'd hate to see others scared away from the brand by Pascoe's reviews. Pascoe is very kind to Bertram. Well, between the period he seems to have reviewed and today, they turned out a lot of problems, boats regularly de-laminating. Their last few years in the US were disastrous. Please don't read his reviews and go buy a 2010. Now the renewed boat about to ship from Italy. Guess we'll see.

So, my warning remains. Pascoe isn't God as some make him out to be. I'm not saying he's the Devil either. I do personally find that I disagree with much of what he rights. Now that doesn't mean what he writes isn't accurate for that specific boat. Also, his information is now getting quite old and one can't use his reviews of 1995 models to apply to a 2005 model. Many of his reviews don't even indicate what year boat he was looking at or when he was doing so. That seems important to me. Now, my warning also applies to every other reviewer and review site. Know that if boattest reviews, most of those are advertisers, if PMY reviews they're either advertisers or potential advertisers. That said, the one "objective" site is Consumer Reports and their reviews reflect bias as well.

I just see a lot of people sent to Pascoe, and, frankly, if I agreed with everything he ever says, I'd be scared to go near a boat. (Well, perhaps a SF, he's pretty kind to them). Pascoe's reviews are information based on the survey of that boat at that time. Information I feel comfortable passing on is going to be based on what I've heard from many users, seen myself, and believe based on the years being discussed.

One thing I attempt to do but know I often fail at is when someone asks about a boat, I try to answer in reference to their intended use and to their budget. There really aren't many bad boats new. Most are various levels of good for various uses. There are a couple of builders (diminishing number as these continue to go out of business) that I would never buy new because I would never trust them, but I try to make clear that is my personal thought and what it is based on. I did state such warnings about Northern Marine and turned out quite right. I actually had some non-public information prior to the fiasco but also some public information such as current litigation and previous history.

I learn from everyone here and their comments on boats. I don't like Nordhavn especially and think it's overrated, but then I'm going to say it's basically a good boat and for certain uses it has one of the happiest ownership bases there is. Not by any means all owners are that happy but in general their owners are very pleased. When people start attacking Chinese builders I will certainly defend with Nordhavn and a few others. And when asked about a boat, I never answer on the basis of whether I'd want that boat. The boats I would want to own are not the mainstream here. I believe my wife just answered a question on what one would change with "more speed." It will always be "more."

Then there are boats, largely due to their periods of build, I know nothing about. Willard is an example. I know my wife thinks they're cute. I know their owners are lovers of them. That's enough. I have never been on a Seahorse product but I sure know some happy Diesel Duck and Coot owners.

Gordon J said:

You need to do lots of looking and talking to folks who boat/cruise. I too live in Tidewater (Hampton). IF you want to see an Ocean Alexander two cabin, two head trawler, let me know.

Gordon

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Thanks Gordon, I may take you up on your offer, but I need to make a business trip to beautiful Sharjah to work on a tanker for a week or so...

As far as the David Pascoe thing, I'm planning on reading several of his 'reviews'. It's funny how much he liked the U.S. Marine Maxim 4600! Right now I'm trying to gather as much data as I can and hope to seriously begin the hunt in the spring.

SeadawgVB said:

As far as the David Pascoe thing, I'm planning on reading several of his 'reviews'. It's funny how much he liked the U.S. Marine Maxim 4600! Right now I'm trying to gather as much data as I can and hope to seriously begin the hunt in the spring.

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I've never discouraged anyone from reading his reviews. Just don't elevate him to a level where you value his review over all the other information available that may conflict with his opinion. I'd say that on anyone's reviews, but Pascoe's are just the ones I have seen exalted at times.

There are a few specific models of most brands with known and specific issues but mostly it comes down to individual boats and the maintenance they have received.
Before you get right down to it Marine Survey 101 may give you a few ideas on how to inspect your next boat before you hire a surveyor.

PS. I am in the camp with RT, buy your last boat first, too much money to be lost doing it the other way.

If you ask someone how they like their boat you will get an answer. If you ask them how they liked their boat after they sell it you could well get a different answer.

Boatpoker wrote, "Before you get right down to it Marine Survey 101 may give you a few ideas on how to inspect your next boat before you hire a surveyor."

Helpful link - thanks for posting, Boatpoker! Gouk's Marine Survey 101 is a gold mine of experience-based knowledge. To his recommendation about a camera being the most important tool, I would add that a smart-phone is sometimes better than a conventional camera. You can maneuver the lens and flash into places that are impossible to observe otherwise (like a shaft alley, or the gap between a fuel tank and the deck), and come away with a clear, detailed photo to study at your leisure.

hmason said:

If you ask someone how they like their boat you will get an answer. If you ask them how they liked their boat after they sell it you could well get a different answer.

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I liked my Catalina 30 when I bought it (after looking at many with a broker, and it was actually the first boat she showed me!). I still liked it when it was sold but it had to go as I was unable to fit it in with my household goods when transferred to Yokosuka.

boatpoker said:

Snip....

PS. I am in the camp with RT, buy your last boat first, too much money to be lost doing it the other way.

Click to expand...

(I had a nicely worded post that my web filter ate because I took too long to post it!)

This question is one of the reasons which lead me to post here on TF.

I have at a minimum four to seven years before I am actually ready to begin my "Trawler Lifestyle" and pursue my Great Loop adventure. Until that time, I would like to explore the Chesapeake and its tributaries. I would however by restricted by the clock and my PTO schedule and would be looking at a boat that would travel at higher than "trawler speeds" in order to facilitate the work schedule and possible "weather windows".

These weekend and possible week long mini-adventures would require berthing for my wife and I as well as my youngest son (6'2). And possibly my eldest son while home from college breaks. I also want to gain the experience of handling and managing larger power boats as my Catalina 30 experience is now more than 20 years ago.

The Bayliner 32xx and 38xx seems to me like a good choice (until I read Pascoe's reviews as outlined in my above posts). I understand Bayliners are not built to Mercedes / Rolls type standards but I've never owned a Mercedes or Rolls. And I have heard that these were probably the best built Bayliners maybe ever. I currently own a Bayliner bowrider and understand its quirks and foibles, but I take care of it and have not been towed home (yet).

I would love to have a Grand Banks Europa now, but it's not currently in the budget (Two 529 college plans ARE!)

The above notions have all been generated inside my own head and could be complete garbage (stinkin' thinkin').

Questions:

If I buy my "last boat first" I may not have the range laid down by weekend warrior time constraints. Please expound.

A properly maintained Bayliner 32/38xx goes for around 30-40K (and up) and I can expect to sell it for about the same when the time comes. (If I maintain it and don't blow it up.) I did this with my Catalina 30. How does this impact the future of my actual trawler?

SeadawgVB said:

A properly maintained Bayliner 32/38xx goes for around 30-40K (and up) and I can expect to sell it for about the same when the time comes. (If I maintain it and don't blow it up.)

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I wouldn't put my money in that basket. The boat market changed dramatically in 2009 and demogrpahics suggest the flood will expand over the next few years (us old guys dying off) and is flooded with old boats at the bottom end.

Greetings,
Mr. SVB. I concur with Mr. bp. ANY boat is NEVER an investment. Prices are set by the whims of the market. Bayliners have had a bad rep' over the years (undeserved IMO) exacerbated by idle dock chatter. Keep looking at the motor yacht option. Yes, they suck fuel when one has to get there fast but as has been reported in numerous threads on TF, they can return a surprisingly low fuel burn when operated at "trawler" speed.
Not wanting to intrude on your familial fisticuffs (son's) but your lads should be old enough to understand that this type of behavior will not be tolerated aboard.

Been two months... time for an update. I was running headlong down the "interim boat" path. Kinda fell in love with the 360DAs and the 380DA (early 2000s). Looked at a couple and seriously considered a 380DA with twin CATs, but the numbers just didn't align, especially for an "interim boat". I also heard of the Sundancer cave syndrome (no windows) and an old post right here from Pineapple Girl who talked about going to brunch in a trawler vs an express cruiser "Hanging out as opposed to hanging on" http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s3/switching-trawler-cruiser-3137.html (see post #14).


Not to mention the "buy your last bout first" thingy...


So, maybe I might be "needing" a Fast Trawler. What are fast trawlers? Semi-displacement? (I know that semi-displacement is kinda of a marketing thing.) I still feel the need of going more than 7 knots upon occasion (18ish?), but the boat needs to handle well at trawler speeds, which is where I would be operating most of the time.

Can't have it both ways. Can't have a truck that drives like a car. Or a sailboat that runs like a powerboat. Or a SD that handles like a FD. If you want to go faster (and you state that) you'll need a much lighter boat or the boat will be Limited to SD speeds and doggish handling. Many (perhaps even most) boats here are planing hulls (or nearly so) w a big keel and plenty of extra weight.

A boat that you should look at for ideas is the SeaDory. Not a trawler at all but very good looking and slightly trawler like in it's appearance w an extremely good wide speed range. The hull is part of it but most of the reason they have such a wide speed range is because they are light and flat on the bottom. The GB has a wonderful SD hull that would have a wide speed range too but they are way to heavy to go much over FD speed.

So mostly you will be looking for a light boat. And the lighter you get the more un-trawler it will be as the frequently excessive weight of the trawler is by far the the feature of the type that most identifies it as trawler. Boats like the Camano and the Ranger look a bit like a trawler but are not .. they are light and fast. So if you want speed the Camano is a really good boat from what I've heard and from what the hull looks like. But it won't handle like a true SD boat because it isn't. And I think the Ranger is even more so but w/o the semi-box keel the Camano has it probably won't handle like you'd expect a trawler to handle. But boats like these are what you'll need to satisfy your need for speed.

Everybody wants it all but you just can't have it. Motorsailers (50/50) won't be good powerboats nor good sailboats. But some (like the McGreggor 26) do much better at it than most. So look for a light boat that does better at trawler than most. And I'm talking about handling and seaworthyness .. not how trawler or cute it looks but as much a trawler you can get at the weight you'll need for the speed. The more I think of it the better the Camano looks and is as far as I know.

BTW "semi-displacement" is a real deal. A hull type that shines better than others at SD speeds. You mention 18knots. Unless it's a quite large boat 18 knots (think of it as over 20mph) will be a planing hull/boat. So it sounds like you're looking for a very fast SD or (depending on length) a planing boat. Also good wide speed range boat are typically longer and narrower than most.

SeadawgVB said:

So, maybe I might be "needing" a Fast Trawler. What are fast trawlers? Semi-displacement? (I know that semi-displacement is kinda of a marketing thing.) I still feel the need of going more than 7 knots upon occasion (18ish?), but the boat needs to handle well at trawler speeds, which is where I would be operating most of the time.

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We're part of the need to go faster group, but we never feel the need for 7 knots unless there's a speed limit. Semi-displacement is an acceptable term. You're going to have to figure out the right compromise for you. You have compared express cruisers to trawlers, but there's a lot in between. For instance, lots of express from Sea Ray but sedans and other designs from Carver and Meridian and others that might be better for a picnic than an express. Mainship, Bayliner, and Beneteau have fit in the middle for many people.