Battery power for home during power outage

This isn't a "boat" question but I'm confident one of you folks can point me in the right direction.

In the event of a power outage, our HOA does not allow a generator to be run between the hours of 10 pm and 7 am. Down here in Florida, that makes for an extremely uncomfortable night. In the event of a post-hurricane situation, where we may be without power for a few days, I'll have plenty of power during the daytime hours to power most of the house. I've installed a 10-circuit transfer switch in the house and have a 7,500w generator.

I am looking to get a window air conditioner that I can set up in the bedroom to sleep at night. Power consumption on an 8,000 BTU AC unit is about 700w/6-7 amps . Double that to 1,400w/12 amps to allow for more choices.

My question is assuming 12 amps, running 9 hours:

1. What type of batteries?
2. How many of them?
3. What size inverter?
4. How to charge them during the day off of the gas generator?


If anyone can point me in the right direction (think "Batteries For Dummies") I would greatly appreciate it.

Jim

What if you have a medical issue that requires AC? Can they stop you from saving your life?

My wife sleeps days and I installed a Costco purchased floor AC that looks like an R2D2, it is a one ton unit and draws 9 Amps AC, so figure at least 110 Amps DC at 12 VDC. That is a LOT of current.

I would look into other options, such as moving out of any HOA property. Do they let you fly the American flag? Perhaps a swamp cooler, but isn't Florida humid?

At any rate, why do you have to lose your frozen food and sleep in the heat in an emergency because some ninny on an HOA board says you have to be financially hurt?

Fire that bitch up and screw 'em.

1400 watts at 12 volts is 120 amps, time 9 is 1000 amphours so you need a 12 volt bank of deep cycle batteries with 2000 amp hours of capacity. Assuming six volts batteries for a minute, like golf carts or L16's, that's 20 200 amphour batteries.

Thanks George,
So following up on your post, what would be a recommended inverter/charger? Would I base my minimum on the 1400w or would I want something more in the 2000w or bigger size?

caltexflanc said:

1400 watts at 12 volts is 120 amps, time 9 is 1000 amphours so you need a 12 volt bank of deep cycle batteries with 2000 amp hours of capacity. Assuming six volts batteries for a minute, like golf carts or L16's, that's 20 200 amphour batteries.

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That looks about right. However if you were to invest in that size of battery bank you might as well go all in and invest in solar and wind generation to give you more options.

Do you lose power a lot where you are? If this is a recurring thing then there are a number of issues you may want to look at including where you are living. That size of battery bank is a lot of money, space, and some maintenance to cover something that may not or rarely happens. If you lose power for a day you can crank your AC run by your generator to get the house cooled down and then sleep downstairs for a night or two. Not super comfortable but certainly possible, and probably better than investing in a DC house bank.

If the concern is for a major weather event where the region could be without power for days at a time then that is altogether a different matter. If this is the concern, I would just run the generator and after everyone puts their lives back together then worry about the HOA folks.

There is a lot we don't know about your situation. Is this a rule to keep folks from having relatively park an RV in the neighborhood and run a generator 24/7? Was there an issue at one point that prompted this rule? Have you talked to the HOA to find out what the issue is?

tcpip95 said:

This isn't a "boat" question but I'm confident one of you folks can point me in the right direction.

In the event of a power outage, our HOA does not allow a generator to be run between the hours of 10 pm and 7 am. Down here in Florida, that makes for an extremely uncomfortable night. In the event of a post-hurricane situation, where we may be without power for a few days, I'll have plenty of power during the daytime hours to power most of the house. I've installed a 10-circuit transfer switch in the house and have a 7,500w generator.


Jim

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That is a rule for the normal course of events. I'm sure they figure you can survive one night without or go somewhere else. However, rules like that are quickly suspended in the event of a hurricane. I'm sure they don't allow building materials to be in the yard and wood plastered over the windows and plastic over the holes in the roof and many other things in normal conditions, but post hurricane, I wouldn't worry. In fact, I'd be helpful to my immediate neighbors who don't have generators and allow them to spend time with me or put some of their food in a freezer. They'll be very happy you're breaking the "rule."

They must be sailboaters saying you disturb the anchorage. lol. I can assure you the others, if they don't have generators, will be trying to buy them if without power.

You've already got the solution. I wouldn't spend lots of time, effort and money on more to cover a hurricane you may never see.

dhays said:

That looks about right. However if you were to invest in that size of battery bank you might as well go all in and invest in solar and wind generation to give you more options.

Do you lose power a lot where you are? If this is a recurring thing then there are a number of issues you may want to look at including where you are living. That size of battery bank is a lot of money, space, and some maintenance to cover something that may not or rarely happens. If you lose power for a day you can crank your AC run by your generator to get the house cooled down and then sleep downstairs for a night or two. Not super comfortable but certainly possible, and probably better than investing in a DC house bank.

If the concern is for a major weather event where the region could be without power for days at a time then that is altogether a different matter. If this is the concern, I would just run the generator and after everyone puts their lives back together then worry about the HOA folks.

There is a lot we don't know about your situation. Is this a rule to keep folks from having relatively park an RV in the neighborhood and run a generator 24/7? Was there an issue at one point that prompted this rule? Have you talked to the HOA to find out what the issue is?

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I'm in SW Florida. We have not been hit by a hurricane since Wilma back in 2005, and Charley the year before, so the occurrences are very rare. Having said that, when we did get hit, we were without power for days - and in many locations, weeks. I bought the generator two years ago, and wired it in to the house as a precaution. Fortunately, I've only had to use it once (other than to test it) and that was only for one day.

The rules for the HOA are in place for noise purposes. Everyone will have their windows open at night because there will be no A/C, and so the rules are there for the rest of the people who want to sleep without having to listen to everyone's generators running all night. It has been raised at HOA meetings, and the bottom line is - they're not going to change the rules.

I agree it's a lot of money for something that (knock on wood) has not happened in 11 years.

I have not committed to actually doing this, and there are other alternatives that I could do - including running my diesel truck (to use the built-in 400w inverter) to power a couple of fans, but would prefer NOT to do that. I could also do something as simple as getting a couple of these and charging them during the day:



https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FBK3QK/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

They won't get me to a window A/C unit running overnight, but they also won't set me back $2,000 - $3,000 or more either.

So I'm doing my due diligence to see what the dollars and effort would be to do a battery bank. Not knowing what's involved, I first need to figure that out, then make an informed decision. I really am appreciative of everyone's responses.

I would inquire what the noise level limit is and see if a sound enclosure is available or could be built to silence the gennie...maybe put in a pond and pipe exhaust underwater?
There are gas/propane fridges...anyone heard of propane A/C???

Bacchus said:

I would inquire what the noise level limit is and see if a sound enclosure is available or could be built to silence the gennie...maybe put in a pond and pipe exhaust underwater?
There are gas/propane fridges...anyone heard of propane A/C???

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Bacchus, that idea of asking for the noise level limit is great. I could build an enclosure to deaden the sound considerably. That's one I'll have to look into!

Disregarding the cost, would something like a Tesla Powerwall do it?

dwhatty said:

Disregarding the cost, would something like a Tesla Powerwall do it?

Click to expand...

I believe that is one of his intended markets.

tc...

"There are gas/propane fridges...anyone heard of propane A/C???"

Apparaently they do exist and have for awhile but haven't really "caught on"

Here's a report... everything you wanted to know about gas/propane A/C

Assessment of Propane Fired Gas Air Conditioning, Heat Pumping and
Dehumidification Technologies, Products, Markets and Economics

BigJim said:

What if you have a medical issue that requires AC? Can they stop you from saving your life?

My wife sleeps days and I installed a Costco purchased floor AC that looks like an R2D2, it is a one ton unit and draws 9 Amps AC, so figure at least 110 Amps DC at 12 VDC. That is a LOT of current.

I would look into other options, such as moving out of any HOA property. Do they let you fly the American flag? Perhaps a swamp cooler, but isn't Florida humid?

At any rate, why do you have to lose your frozen food and sleep in the heat in an emergency because some ninny on an HOA board says you have to be financially hurt?

Fire that bitch up and screw 'em.

Click to expand...

OK, this post is stupid on so many levels and does nothing to help the OP. Before you write about HOAs, you should understand how they operate and their purpose.

For the batteries and inverter, you need to know the current draw of the air conditioner including any start up surge. You need an inverter that will handle this much current and you need a bank of batteries that can supply the needed current for the number of hours the air conditioner will be running. Remember that 15 amps at 120 volts AC is roughly 150 amps of DC from the batteries. Also remember that the batteries should not be discharged more than 50% of their capacity.

The question you should ask the HOA is, do the covenants prohibit running a generator or do they impose sound level limits? Could you enclose the generator in a building or garage and add soundproofing and a muffler (with their approval, they will know you are up to something if they see lights on in your house and no others)?

I used to service a building that had cooling provided by ice. During the night time when electric rates were low, equipment froze a large quantity of water into ice. In the daytime when electric rates were higher, cooling was provided by blowing air over the ice instead of a traditional air conditioning system. A variation of this would be interesting and might solve your problem.

I understand why your covenants prohibit running generators at night. Some can be very loud and annoying. Think of anchorages you might have stayed in. Remember, the covenants were in place when you bought your home so you can't really complain.


PS: It occurs to me that you could spend many nights in a local motel and still be ahead financially than if you try to buy and maintain a battery bank and inverter just to run an air conditioner occasionally.

Invite your neighbors to come sleep in your air conditioned home and you'll get no complaints as the community shelter.

We're fortunate that we have no HOA, but we've only run our generators for their monthly tests and they've come on for five minutes or so a couple of times.

If you extended your closest neighbors an extension cord at night from your genny, would they still turn you in? Your HOA is crazy. There will be chain saws, tractors, and hammers pounding all night after a big storm.
Another thought is a Honda inverter series 2000w to run a room A/C after hours. They are very quiet but you can still make it quieter with a foam sound box.

High Wire said:

If you extended your closest neighbors an extension cord at night from your genny, would they still turn you in? Your HOA is crazy. There will be chain saws, tractors, and hammers pounding all night after a big storm.
Another thought is a Honda inverter series 2000w to run a room A/C after hours. They are very quiet but you can still make it quieter with a foam sound box.

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You can't hear our generators beyond property lines any more than you can our air conditioners. Now, I don't know how close the homes are where he is, or if there are trees or fences.

Greetings,
Mr. tc. I think someone mentioned "swamp cooler". Run the fan off batteries...

Lets go back to the original post.

What you will need to cool the room during the day is very different than at night. First, I'm wouldn't cool the master suite; it's the guest bedroom. Second a 5,000 btu AC unit will keep the room cool with maybe a 30% duty cycle. Simply, you have no sun heat loading at night. The room is cool already as you have been running the AC unit all day. I'm guessing 100 to 200 watts per hour for 9 hours. After figuring inverter loss 2,000 watts equals 200 amps of energy, I'd bank 6 Trojan T105s for a 660 amp bank.

Have a better Idea. Go buy the 5,000 btu window shaker; install it in the guest bedroom window, and buy a power consumption meter. The meter is good for up to 15 amps and will show you how many watts you consumed over night. Then do a test run by sleeping in the room with the central AC turned off and the window unit plugged into the power consumption meter plugged into the wall outlet. No more guessing; you will know how much stored energy you will need. Between the AC unit and the meter, you will probably invest less than $300 in the experiment.

Ted

All,
Thanks for all of this.

@OC, your experiment is brilliant - and you're right - very definitive.
@HighWire - very true about the cleanup stuff that would be going on, day and night.
@WesK - thanks for the sanity check
@Bacchus - I think it's time to test the HOA's source for their generator ban. What constitutes "too loud?".
@BandB - excellent point about it not being "normal course of events"
@dwhatty - PowerWall is a great idea. Saw it mentioned about six months ago and thought "who the hell would need that at home"
@RT - you never let us down! Thanks for the video.

And the HOA probably is made up of a bunch of blowboaters!

Have you actually read the HOA's rules about running generators instead of relying on rumors and word of mouth info?


The reason I ask is that we live in a subdivision with a strong HOA. For many years the word on the street was that they prohibited swimming pools. They wouldn't allow them because they have rules against the type/size of fences in the sub. The rules limited fences to 4' tall.


I checked state codes and the codes required a 5' fence. I also checked the HOA rules and there was no mention of swimming pools, just the fence issue. A check with the state disclosed that the HOA could not prohibit fences over 4' when a swimming pool was installed.


I got my ducks in a row, had all my drawings and the applicable state and city codes about fences around pools and went to an HOA board meeting. I presented all my info and told them "Everything I have done is IAW state law and the rules this HOA has in writing as of today. If you deny this application we WILL end up in court and I WILL prevail."


We sure are enjoying our pool, and one of our neighbors is also building one.

GFC said:

Have you actually read the HOA's rules about running generators instead of relying on rumors and word of mouth info?


The reason I ask is that we live in a subdivision with a strong HOA. For many years the word on the street was that they prohibited swimming pools. They wouldn't allow them because they have rules against the type/size of fences in the sub. The rules limited fences to 4' tall.


I checked state codes and the codes required a 5' fence. I also checked the HOA rules and there was no mention of swimming pools, just the fence issue. A check with the state disclosed that the HOA could not prohibit fences over 4' when a swimming pool was installed.


I got my ducks in a row, had all my drawings and the applicable state and city codes about fences around pools and went to an HOA board meeting. I presented all my info and told them "Everything I have done is IAW state law and the rules this HOA has in writing as of today. If you deny this application we WILL end up in court and I WILL prevail."


We sure are enjoying our pool, and one of our neighbors is also building one.

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Yes, am familiar with them word-for-word. I'm one of the original owners when these condos were built back in 2002, and have been cover-to-cover on them. Here's the actual by-law:

Standard #16 GENERATORS
Rules for Emergency Generators:
a. Generators will only be permitted for emergency power only.
b. Generators may only be used during named storms or disaster power outages.
c. Generators may only be used in the location of the resident’s driveway, with a minimum distance of 10-feet from the building.
d. Generator size shall be no larger than 15KW.
e. Generators may not be installed for permanent use or have any outlets installed into the building.
f. Generators will not be operated between the hours of 10:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m.
g. Unit owners are responsible for ensuring safe operation of their generators and safe storage of generator fuel.
(Adopted by the Board of Directors 10-02-06)

I've been through several hurricanes that knocked out the power for several days. After Andrew we were without power for ten days. The first four days I didn't have a genny so I survived with Caframo battery fans. They really helped.

After another hurricane I ran a wall unit, 8000 btu, on my Honda 2000i. It is a very quiet genny. Starting load is what you need to be concerned with. I had installed a hard start capacitor to allow me to run it on such a small genny. Some air conditioners are easier to start than others.

I'll bet if you talk to your neighbors, they'll be interested in getting a generator also.

If you just can't run the genny at night, get the bedroom as cool as you can, take a cold shower and turn on the battery operated fans.

dwhatty said:

Disregarding the cost, would something like a Tesla Powerwall do it?

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My thoughts also, as this comes up regularly on the various solar power forums over here in Oz, as solar power here is now all the go - we have a 6kWh system, eg, but the ability to save excess for night use is tempting to get our grid charges down even more. However, the Tesla Power Wall, although designed for this purpose is still expensive here, and the 'expert installers' on the forums always doubt there would be enough storage in one to run the usual household long enough. Certainly to go off grid altogether, anyway. But for shorter periods yes. So, it probably would suffice for you for a prolonged but temporary outage, especially as you mainly want just aircon at night when you can't run a genny, but the cost then becomes the main factor - is it worth it for however many times possibly needed..? If it turns out it was, then you might want to consider setting up with rooftop panels and really going green..? Then you would have power during the day as well most times (after the storm is passed), without even needing the genny.

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When I ran into problems with my HOA I found that the simplest solution was to depose the entire Board. That was relatively easy to do. The bad news is that I then became the President of the Board and was stuck with it for years!

The issue was about building a community boat ramp. We now have a community boat ramp.

FF said:

One hassle is batteries have a limited life , even if not used

Click to expand...

Which is why adding in solar panels and going the whole hog makes good sense in the longer run. See post above. Sorry the inverter inverted itself, so ran true to form at least.

In my garage I have a Kubota diesel 8kW with a car type exhaust going through the wall to the outside. With garage door closed and machine running, you can barely hear it outside the building, even standing next to the exhaust. The aircon condensing units nearby make more noise.

I'm at the end of the line in power company speak. Last one to get power back after a storm. Had to run gennie for three weeks after one storm.

The big complaint is those Home Depot cheapo gasoline units set on driveways running at 3600rpm. Those things are LOUD. My neighbors ran one at night and it kept me up. And it was 100yds from my house. I heard it over my diesel.

Get two or three of those things running on a neighborhood block and the noise is unbearable.

Every HOA has a set of covenants that are registered with whatever county agency registers deeds. It is these covenants that determine what can and cannot be done, not the Board of Directors on a whim. The HOA should be able and willing to supply you with a copy of these covenants and any amendments. They should be willing to supply them to prospective home buyers as well. These covenants are designed to protect the property values and quality of life in the neighborhood.


If you really want or need to know what is OK and what is not, you need to obtain and read these documents. Don't rely on rumor or word of mouth.


And as mentioned above, there are occasions where federal, state or local law supersede the covenants. If you believe that's the case, there's no reason to be nasty, just present your proof.


I

It seems your HOA is reacting to an unknown situation. Much better if they would have set a dB noise limit at a certain distance and have anyone with generators abide by that (also any other type of noise, cars, music, etc.). Like a few others have remarked an air conditioner can be louder than a properly installed quiet generator.
OTOH why not get one of those LOUD cheap generators, pull off the muffler and give it to your neighbor who lives next door to the HOA board members and let him run it from 6am to 10pm. May not convince them to change the rules but might make you feel better

This is an interesting thread and having had experience with power outages, running a window unit to cool a bedroom and knowledge of batteries and inverter/chargers, I think I can make an authoritative comment.


First the night time cooling load is a fraction of day time. So by all means pick a small bedroom if you can and no more than a 5,000 BTU/hr A/C. With a 10x12 bedroom that size the A/C will run about 1/3 of the time. With a 7,000 btu unit I was able to cool a 15x15 bedroom running half of the time at night.


So that small A/C will require about 5 amps at 120v or 600 watts. Running at half the time for the 10 hour no genset period will require 3,000 watt hours or 3000/12*.9 = 280 AH. To keep from prematurely ruining your batteries you need about 600 AH of battery capacity. Six GC batteries hooked up series/parallel will supply that pretty cheaply, but maybe use 8 to supply the fridge and a few LED lights.


Xantrex (well I hate Xantrex products generally but they do have an economical inverter/charger) has one that should work that costs about $450. See Xantrex Freedom HF 1800 Power Inverter / Charger It has a 40 amp charger which should recharge the batteries if you run the genset during the day, all day. If you only want to run the genset for a short period then you need a bigger inverter/charger with a 100 amp charger. That will double the cost.


The batteries will cost less than a grand and the Xantrex with some wire and fuse will cost $500. Set the Xantrex up near the small A/C and plug it in. Run a wire from a wall socket that will be energized by the genset when it is running to the AC input to the Xantrex. Hook the batteries up with #2 cable if the run is just a few feet, larger if it is longer. Install a 200 amp class T fuse in the positive wire near the battery.


So for $1,500 you can sleep well for as long as the genset continues to run during the day. That will buy a lot of nights at a motel though.


David