Regional Bottom Paint

Thinking about heading South for the Winter. Since bottom paints seem to be a regional thing, what bottom paint works in the Florida Big Bend area ? Looking for local specific information say for Pensacola to Port St Joe region. I have recommendations for SeaHawk Shark Skin.

Greetings,
I have used Sea Hawk (ablative) to good effect in Ft. Lauderdale. Can't remember if it was Shark Skin or not...CRAFT

Bottom paint - Northern CA?

Hi all, here is a photo of the bottom when the boat was hauled yesterday. 1st time boat owner, really. How do I know if it is "time?"

Also, for water temps 57-60 degrees and year-round mooring in the San Francisco Bay, what is the consensus for bottom paint?

Sand to smooth, then Pro Line primer, and Interlux Ultra? Or what?

Id be soda blasting then make a decision

Craig, I see you are a first time owner, so assume this is your first haulout since purchase.Was there a purchase survey? Is there anything in it relating to the underwater hull condition?
Has the haulout yard made any suggestions? If they are doing the work get their advice and check it here. If you are doing it yourself, that`s different,plenty of members can give advice for your nominated area. Like Gaston, I`m wondering if something needs doing before routine antifouling.

It looks like the anti foul has built up to a level where it needs removing to start again - its too thick and flaking - or that's what it looks like in the first photo. as Gaston says, soda blasting will get rid of the various layers of old antifouling, back to the gel coat so you can start again. also give you a chance to check the hull for any osmosis etc. Soda blasting is much gentler than sand blasting - wet or dry.

By coincidence, or boat is coming out tomorrow - 1st time since we bought her so I may be in the same position as you. One problem I have is not knowing what is on there at the moment - brand and whether its hard or ablative- although that shouldn`t be too hard to figure out. To be safe, I may have to undercoat before antifoul, assuming the hull is still sound (it was a good report at the survey.

Good luck

George

Bruce, Gaston, George, thanks. Yes, this is from a prepurchase survey. The surveyor said that it is unlikely to find a yard around here that does soda-blasting due to the mess, EPA, Baywatch, etc. Environmental groups apply lots of pressure here in CA. I would like to find one that does soda blasting, though. Surveyor says sanding and topical chemicals are typical, not blasting.

Dripless shaft bellows need replacing, rudder glands need repacking, there are a number of issues that I was unaware of, and I believe seller was unaware of. Including reparations to the 2012 nonskid job, which is having "bonding issues" with the deck surface (not due to core moisture but more likely due to poor prep work and/or off-gassing). So, we are going back to the drawing board.

I will get the recommendation of the yard re: bottom paint, and check back. Given that the yard seems to have done a substandard job of paint prep last time (evident not only on deck surfaces but elsewhere too), I am skeptical of this yard (KKMI), other than the bottom job.

I'll be honest with you... This looks like more of an electrical BONDING system issue rather than a bottom paint issue. At least on the stern for sure. Every problem area is around an underwater metal.

Regarding the bottom... I would be careful getting a blasting (even if you could find someone to do it there). It looks like there is a pretty thick build-up of old paint, that soda may not remove. And either, soda or sand, if not done correctly, can expose a myriad of other problems... like blisters (ask me how I know).

Get a second opinion. And a third. Have a diver, a surveyor, or an independent tech to come take a look. Don't trust a yard to be 100% honest with you. Some will... some will not. (ask me how I know THAT too).

IMHO-Sometimes just peeling off what you can, sanding off what you can, and just slapping on a couple of layers of paint will do fine for a year or two. This is your first boat. Try not to ruin the experience by biting off more than you can chew or becoming bitter from the whole process by feeling like you hemorrhaging money on a boat you just bought.

Tom, thanks - good observation, and the surveyor agrees with you:

"When there is an excess amount of electrical current within a bonding system, which can be due to a stray or unanticipated current, or too large a zinc anode in relation to the metal it's protecting (the cathode), the water around the fitting can develop an excess of hydroxyl ions creating a strong alkaline condition which affects the bottom paint. This condition (and the corrosion control monitor system) should be examined by a qualified marine electrician who has an understanding of bonding systems." (FYI surveyor also noted that the boat has an internally monitored bonding system with voltage meters. Engine shafts have been fitted with shaft brushes and zinc collars. The connections were secure but show corrosion deposits and should be cleaned to bright and coated with a moisture inhibitor.)

Thanks also for the pointers on the bottom, and I will get second opinions. I have more photos. We'll see what happens... Still need to work out a repair allowance, as the purchase depends on that. The survey turned up a number of issues, most minor, but it seems like a lot, in aggregate. I hear what you mean about biting off more than I can chew. Looking at this survey, it seems like a very easy thing to do.

I already feel like i am hemorrhaging money, btw. The surveys cost me $3600 and I am still not sure I will end up with the boat...

CraigC said:

I already feel like i am hemorrhaging money, btw. The surveys cost me $3600 and I am still not sure I will end up with the boat...

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I think everyone was interpreting this that you had already purchased the boat, but now that we know it's a survey allowing you to see this, not ending up with the boat might be the best thing. You've got a litany of problems. Make sure you have solid estimates from quality yards before you follow through on the purchase. Or insist the owner repair it all and then talk about the purchase. And I'd base the reductions I'd want on price on the amount a good yard will charge. Then if you choose to DIY that's fine.

The $3600 is already spent. It's been well worth it. Don't feel like you must buy the boat to justify the survey.

CraigC said:

I already feel like i am hemorrhaging money, btw. The surveys cost me $3600 and I am still not sure I will end up with the boat...

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Seems like a lot, hopefully that included engines... but in any case probably money well spent..

BandB said:

You've got a litany of problems. Make sure you have solid estimates from quality yards before you follow through on the purchase. Or insist the owner repair it all and then talk about the purchase. And I'd base the reductions I'd want on price on the amount a good yard will charge. Then if you choose to DIY that's fine.

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Thanks - I am doing just that. The majority of items range from 'Replace outlet with GFCI' and 'The shower sump pump float in the forward sump tank would not activate the sump pump,' to 'Stress cracks were found in the stanchion bases for the port side #1 and #2 bow railing stanchions' and 'Provide steps on the bulkhead below and aft of the forward hatch to assist in egress through the forward escape hatch." There are 44 recommended items. I work full-time but can handle some of them. The big ones (some engine room items, the nonskid issue, bottom job, shaft bellows and rudder gland packing, etc.), I will have to hire out. I suggested a $30K repair allowance but my broker was not very encouraging about that amount. He is getting estimates now.

CraigC said:

Thanks - I am doing just that. The majority of items range from 'Replace outlet with GFCI' and 'The shower sump pump float in the forward sump tank would not activate the sump pump,' to 'Stress cracks were found in the stanchion bases for the port side #1 and #2 bow railing stanchions' and 'Provide steps on the bulkhead below and aft of the forward hatch to assist in egress through the forward escape hatch." There are 44 recommended items. I work full-time but can handle some of them. The big ones (some engine room items, the nonskid issue, bottom job, shaft bellows and rudder gland packing, etc.), I will have to hire out. I suggested a $30K repair allowance but my broker was not very encouraging about that amount. He is getting estimates now.

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I'd make sure I got some estimates myself, not just the broker. Just getting an estimate on bottom painting tells one nothing. Getting an estimate on stripping and then any other work that might be required and a range of best case to worst is what you need.

Does the owner have maintenance logs on the boat? Do you know if it's ever been grounded?

Craig, now I know the boat is not yet yours, I thought one pic showed an opened up blister, hard just looking at a pic, but on any view the bottom is a mess. Tread carefully whether you proceed, was the boat fairly represented during the purchase process as a "project"? Be ruthless on allowances, no matter how much is allowed it`s rarely enough.
George, Malagari`antifoul must be well due by now. I remember the broker Anchorline telling me she spent 3 months on the hard drying out during an osmosis fix. My a/f was done this week, 20 months with Jotun Seaguardian, a thick layer of slime and little else. The yard remarked how much heavier cans of Jotun are compared to cans of their usual Altex, which hopefully means more good stuff in the paint. The prop edges had little if any propspeed left.Sandbrook Inlet is shallow in parts, based on that the yard advised hard a/f for the gear, not more propspeed.

Thanks B, and Bruce! No, not a project boat, just an old boat that looks great inside and out and has the baggage of being powered by triple nickels. The seller made no mention of any grounding. There are logs but the most recent records since 2011 are just invoices. And they are high. Like as in, $300K, that type of high. $3K here, $10K there, $29K there, the yard alone billed like $250K in 2012, mostly for paint and refit related items. No structural repairs - oddly they left alone some spore activity in the forward portion of the pilothouse, under the dash. They said it was only wood framing "forms" for the prefab glass panels to attach to, and not structural, so, not a big deal. I was like, dang, you could have at least sprayed it 5 years ago... Now it goes all the way from port to starboard in that sill plate, way to go folks! The mechanic who's been working on the boat for the past few years says it is "built like a brick sh*thouse."

Not sure if Jotun Seaforce 30 is available on the West Coast here, but I will look into it. That would be a yard labor item, not a DIY.

I too would recommend speaking to contractors directly about the work that's needed, what else they might find, etc. Don't rely in the broker. The broker wants to close the deal. After that it's all your problem. Stick to whatever allowance you are comfortable with, not what the broker thinks will close the deal. The one thing you can count of is that actual work will exceed all the estimates. It's just a question of how much more. If the seller doesn't accept your allowance, then why take on the project and risk? Move on to another boat.

thanks twistedtree. It's just hard to find a 53' 3-stateroom PNW pilothouse in the mid-100's, in even fair condition. I could get a decent 1980's 2-stateroom Taiwanese Yachtfisher or CPMY for around the same price, but not sure it would be in much better condition overall than this one is.

The yard did not do a very good job on the prep when they painted the boat - a disappointment to me, for the money the seller spent. They really screwed up the new nonskid, and it doesn't seem fair that I should be stuck with that bill. Seller's late husband was the commissioning owner. I am sure that there's some sentimentality involved. But overall, the $180K repurchase price + $300K in work she has in the boat (which still left the original 555's in the ER) over the past 5 years, probably the hardest part for her to come to terms with. It is what it is, I guess.

twistedtree said:

The one thing you can count of is that actual work will exceed all the estimates. It's just a question of how much more. .

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This happens for two reasons. One is finding out there is more work required on some of the jobs. The other is "as long as you're doing this, it would make sense to go on and do that" type things, where the estimates were good, but you choose to do more.

CraigC there is no such thing as 1 blister . From what I have read so far I would be running and not looking back . Out of interest how much is the sell price and a photo of the boat as well please

Gaston I am really not wanting to pay the $160K as previously agreed, because there were findings that neither the seller nor I knew about before the surveys. I want to come back with a $30K repair allowance (so, $130K as price/ to seller). Oh, and the sale does not include any dinghy.

HiDHo - your post took a side track so I'll reign it back in. In Florida I've always had great success with the Trinidad brand. High copper content...works well in the warmer water. I'm pulling my boat this weekend after slightly more than two years on two coats of Trinidad (red), sitting in brackish water.

Sorry for hijacking the thread, I just was maybe a little bit too bashful to start my own new thread, and should not have revived a 2 1/2 month old one.

Anyway, Pettit makes hard as well as ablative paints. I am sure that there are "Pettit vs Interlux" debates ad nauseum. Seeing that we're not talking about anchors here, maybe I can still ask, I will need a hard paint rather than an ablative, do folks overall have a better experience with Pettit, rather than Interlux products?

I'm still intrigued by Jotun's SeaForce 30, which I have heard little about here in the US.

Thanks for the pics,I definitely get the appeal of the boat. Equally, I`m wary the visible bits look good, the bits underwater you can`t, look, well, . Make sure that doesn`t apply elsewhere, did you do a mechanical survey?
If you drastically clean back the hull as you probably should, you may have to make good the whole underwater surface before primer and antifoul. Big job but, it might be worth it, so take it step by step in negotiation, it`s not like you will easily get gazumped.

Thanks Bruce! Yeah the triple nickels did not like WOT, but they made it anyway, 15 kts. I have been given excellent advice by D.Marchand and Clark Leighs. Gensets have their niggles but can be dealt with. A few boat bucks in repairs. The worst is the nonskid, which was applied over OLD nonskid apparently, and the rest of the paint prep was, not so good.

The new nonskid didn't take to the surface. Other areas were patched where they were not adhering. Survey(or) says? "Not soft... Just poor paint prep. Can be stripped and redone." Project manager says maybe USD $15-20K.

Maybe the MODS can split this thread.

It's very confusing to be talking of two different boats and issues interchangeably.
At least for me.

As for OP, I was going to use the Jotun, but on recommendation of the yard, switched to International's Intersmooth 360 SPC. Very happy with it.

And Craig C, Run, don't Walk Away.
The fact that you think the yard has not done work properly at $300k means you will be fixing that yard's work for years to come.
For that munch money, there should be no obvious issues; instead it seems to have nothing but issues.

Wxx3 said:

The fact that you think the yard has not done work properly at $300k means you will be fixing that yard's work for years to come.

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It's a bit of a scandal at the yard. This is one of the more highly regarded boatyards in the SF Bay. The seller, having just learned of the paint failure, called in and asked about a workmanship warranty, and they said no, it's too far in the past.

I didn't even make a stink about the other questionable quality paint prep work.

I am trying not to seem "cheap" or overly nitpicky. But it is an issue, yeah. Thanks for your perspective. And for another suggestion about the bottom paint!

CraigC said:

Hi all, here is a photo of the bottom when the boat was hauled yesterday. 1st time boat owner, really. How do I know if it is "time?"

Also, for water temps 57-60 degrees and year-round mooring in the San Francisco Bay, what is the consensus for bottom paint?

Sand to smooth, then Pro Line primer, and Interlux Ultra? Or what?

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The "scorching" around the fittings is due to improperly primed metal. The copper-based anti fouling paint is reacting with it.

In San Francisco Bay, your best paint choices are (and have been for years) Interlux Micron 66 (hybrid ablative) or Pettit Trinidad (hard).

Earlier someone suggested you not feel obliged to fix everything right away, and get sucked into a giant money pit of a project.

If you buy the boat, I think that's really good advice. I agree that the halo paint failures around the thruhull is likely a result of improper bonding and/or over zincing. I'd probably check that, so a quick touch up of bottom paint, and go cruising.

Over time you can build your project list, and prioritize it. If the non-skid issue isn't causing water intrusion and isn't going to trip someone, I'd leave it alone for now. After using a boat for a while, things that seemed very important initially often become less important, and new things step up and take their place in the priority list.

Thanks folks. So, Trinidad SR, yes?

Twistedtree, the insurer came back and stated that the vessel cannot be operated until the survey recommendations are corrected. I guess it was worse than I thought it was (just the hull survey - insurer did not see the engine survey). And the policy premium quoted was about $2600/yr with an $8,000 deductible.

CraigC said:

Thanks folks. So, Trinidad SR, yes?

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Since the reformulation of the SR version of Trinidad (due to the unavailability of the anti slime ingredient, Irgarol), I cannot wholeheartedly recommend it. My recommendation would be to go with one of the older versions of Trinidad.