Taiwan vs China build quality

In the 70's I had 9 Volvo semi's tractors, a Volvo boat engine and car which had a problem with rust, on 6 month old car ?
I asked the dealer to fix it, getting no help from him I went to the UK Volvo distributor and got the same blank wall.
I gave them an option, fix the car or Volvo products will go, they actually laughed it off as a joke.
Over the next 18 months I traded them all away until all they were gone and wouldn't let the salesman back onto the premises and wouldn't touch anything Volvo with a 10 foot barge pole.
I've heard from Volvo users about engine electronics breaking down while out at sea and the exorbitant spares and service charges and I wonder why people still buy them ?

In my case it was ignorance...never thinkin' any reputable diesel engine manufacturer would sell a product and not back it up with a supply of replacement parts. Was I ever wrong.

Greetings,
I doubt very much that ANY multiple/mass produced boats are put into production simply on the word of "suits". As for the naval architect being "well known"...

Boat building will come back to the USA when we get productivity high enough to reduce the need for skilled touch labor.

This will require a change in what is required in hull building , systems engineering and what a "good " interior looks like.

Materials make up a good portion of the final bill , while crude oil is down 3/4 from its high , resin cost has barely dropped.

Would you buy a new boat with a factory re-manufactured engine / tranny to save 1/2 the power cost?

With GRP boats that were well built still here after 40-50 years , purchasing a better built boat and refreshing it will be cheaper in the near future.

Good hunting.

FF said:

...Would you buy a new boat with a factory re-manufactured engine / tranny to save 1/2 the power cost?...

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My understanding is that most engine manufacturers will not sign off on a reman engine in a new build. I believe it has something to do with meeting emissions standards but I'm not sure if that is a complete picture of the issue...

Bruce

Once again a statement about boat building coming back to the US. It's never left. They type boats being talked about coming back, were never here. Many boats are built in the US. The largest boat manufacturer in the world is in the US. SF building is dominated by the US, nearly the exclusive domain of the US. One of the largest yacht builders in the world is in the US.

While talking boat building, Brunswick's marine segment is over $3.3 billion in size. They employee over 10,000 people. Approximately 1/3 of their sales are exports out of the US.

As to larger boats, well Westport, Viking, Hatteras. Three brands that have always been in the US and aren't headed anywhere else.

As to non-US building, far more boats are built in Europe than in Asia. Megayachts in The Netherlands and Germany. Italy being the leading country for boats in the 40-150' range with the UK second.

We forget that in looking at trawler type boats, we're looking at a very small segment of the market, so let's not judge the market based on it. Then in that market, the leading builders are those like Nordhavn and KK. They never built in the US. They were started as Asian builders.

Please stop the talk about boat building coming back to the US. It never left. The presumption it did is just so false.

Bruce B said:

My understanding is that most engine manufacturers will not sign off on a reman engine in a new build. I believe it has something to do with meeting emissions standards but I'm not sure if that is a complete picture of the issue...

Bruce

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And to the question, no, I would not put a remanufactured engine in a new boat. Far more likely to take an old boat and put a new engine in. How many people buy new cars with remanufactured engines? It's totally illogical.

tinped said:

Just found out recently that nordhavn does not own,or have any financial interest in the actual building process.They are merely distributors of the line.Most are built by a company named Ta Shing,which is under contract for the builds with PAE,but is privately owned.

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Clearly you have been talking to a salesman from a competing brand, and I can guess which one....

What you have said is kinda right in a few ways, but at the same time quite misleading, so an effective salesman's line.

Nordhavn uses two yards to build their boats; Ta Shing and South Coast. Both originated in Taiwan, and about 10 years ago South Coast moved to Xiamen China. Both yards build exclusively for Nordhavn, and have done so for 30+ years. Nordhavn does not have a financial interest in either yard. This is not an uncommon arrangement - not by any stretch. Actually, just the opposite is true. South Coast has a minority equity/partnership position in Nordhavn.

Each yard builds specific models. Right now, Ta Shing builds the 64 through 78, plus the M56 motor sailor. South Coast builds the 40 - 63, and the 86-120, plus the new CP59. All the boats are 100% designed and specified by Nordhavn. Nordhavn designs, the ship yards build. It's where Apple got the "designed in California, assembled in China" idea.

And Nordhavn is very, very involved in the build process and definitely has a financial stake in each build. Each model has a project manager who oversees builds of that model. The guy who managed our build was in China at least once a month, inspecting boats, working issues, etc. Plus, Nordhavn buys and supplies a significant portion of the equipment for the builds, shipping over a continuous flow of containers.

The bottom line is that it's a closely entwined build by closely entwined companies with closely aligned goals. Calling Nordhavn a distributor would be like calling Apple a Distributor of phones and computers built by Foxcon.

twistedtree said:

The bottom line is that it's a closely entwined build by closely entwined companies with closely aligned goals. Calling Nordhavn a distributor would be like calling Apple a Distributor of phones and computers built by Foxcon.

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Actually worse as with Nordhavn, the arrangement is what is referred to as a Captive Manufacturer. This is a common arrangement. It's done often by US companies manufacturing in Central and South America where having local ownership of the manufacturing facility is important.

Apple doesn't have a captive situation with Foxconn, but still enough of an interdependent relationship to manage production.

I wasn't trying to imply that the design,overseeing,and quality control is not extensively supervised by nordhavn,sorry if I gave that misconception.I was simply replying to Marcoh post concerning the statement above controlling a quality workforce,which would be Ta Shing,or Southcoasts responsibility,not nordhavn's

FF said:

Would you buy a new boat with a factory re-manufactured engine / tranny to save 1/2 the power cost?

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Why not?

Assuming that you can find a factory recon Tier 3, if it comes from the manufacturer, rebuilt by experts with OEM parts and comes with a (usually half term) warranty, then what's the problem?

Saving $15k on a $35 Cummins is important to many people who don't have huge budgets. Certainly on a home-built boat or a custom made one, doesn't seem like an issue.

Of course if you were walking into a Nordhavn sales office you wouldn't want to, but the person who can afford a $800k base price for a new 40 footer isn't usually concerned about saving 10-20k.

makobuilders said:

Why not?

Assuming that you can find a factory recon Tier 3, if it comes from the manufacturer, rebuilt by experts with OEM parts and comes with a (usually half term) warranty, then what's the problem?

Saving $15k on a $35 Cummins is important to many people who don't have huge budgets. Certainly on a home-built boat or a custom made one, doesn't seem like an issue.

Of course if you were walking into a Nordhavn sales office you wouldn't want to, but the person who can afford a $800k base price for a new 40 footer isn't usually concerned about saving 10-20k.

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I think you made an important distinction. If building a boat yourself, the savings would be very significant. On the other hand, if buying an $800k or more Nordhavn, you're not going to do it to save $15k. It would also very significantly lower the value of the new Nordhavn. One thing some less than trustworthy builders have done is used old, but new, engines. You'd buy a 2015 boat and not realize the engines or generator were 2011 models. They'd either had them sitting around or bought surplus but your boat's value was significantly reduced by them.

tinped said:

I also had a major problem with Volvo,and would NEVER consider another Volvo product of any kind.

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Volvo replaced the engine in my wife's car (SUV?) out of warranty but only because she had records proving that the dealer had done every oil change (and twice as frequently as recommended), and because the failure was a lubrication failure. I gave them good marks for customer service, but my wife switched to Tesla (and loves it, and gets really great customer service, even without dealer oil changes).

I had two Volvo 5.7 (gas) with less than 150 hours on them seize by water ingress,both out of warranty,the 1st by two weeks,both professionally maintained.Volvo took the position that it was a winterization issue,which was disproven by the insurance surveyor both times.Volvo was working with their repair yard to try and push the insurance,and myself to not admit it was not a design issue.I know this because they cc'd me on some private emails by mistake.End result,it came out thru many blogs I'm on that this was an problem with a lot of boats.After seeing an attorney,he advised us that unless some attorney would put together a class action,it would probably cost me just as much in fees as to repair myself.He also explained that big corps. will gamble this way,because time,and money is on their side.So,it cost me close to twenty grand.So much for standing behind their product.

tinped said:

After seeing an attorney,he advised us that unless some attorney would put together a class action,it would probably cost me just as much in fees as to repair myself.He also explained that big corps. will gamble this way,because time,and money is on their side.So,it cost me close to twenty grand.So much for standing behind their product.

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Unfortunately, this is often the case. They do this to other companies as well. There are many companies that dislike this practice as much as you and don't participate in it. They try to quickly resolve situations and avoid court. But for those who consider legal fees a normal part of their operating expenses, they're rather pay lawyers $50k than you $20k, because they want to avoid any precedent of paying. While they can make you sign not to disclose, if they end up in court on another case the information can be required.

The other game played by corporations is contracts to require arbitration and not court and/or to not allow any class action participation and/or to not allow you to request a jury trial. All three of these are very much to the company's favor. I would bet your warranty from Volvo had one or more of those items in it's clauses.

Then, of course, you have jurisdiction. You want it at your home. They want it at theirs. Again, they often spell that out in contracts.

The only real defense: Don't deal with companies with these practices once you're aware of them.

There have always been carmakers and boat and engine builders with a good reputation for warranty claims and those with bad reputations, much like insurers who pay quickly and those that delay.

IGs from the Kong & Halvorsen period were built in mainland China, I believe as far back as 1980, and finished in Hong Kong. My authority is Mark Halvorsen.
As to supervised outsourcing of manufacturing, doesn`t it happen with aeroplanes, like the A380? (Query if that is a 100% positive example).

"Buyers Beware." I see where Nordic Tug has switched from Cummins to Volvo on their new boats.

oh,well the Nordics are off my list

the attorney basically said that Volvo had the attitude that as long as they didn't have a class action,then it was like a divide and conquer scenario,or davis vs goliath.Mercruiser had the exact same issue around 2000,and it became a whole thing with boat us ins. Merc.admitted the problem,and made amends.Volvo didn't.The issue arose because the design of the exhaust elbow was too low,and if your stern wave caught the boat as you came off throttle,the exhaust took the water straight into the engine as the exhaust ports opened.Merc solved this by putting a flap to prevent ingress of water,but of course only after they got sued.Since Volvo gas engines are not as widespreadly used(gas) there was not as much exposure.My boat was a four winns,I know Larson had the same problem,and I think pursuit.Sure there were others,but I don't know them.Oh,well,twenty grand poorer,but could be worse,they could have been Volvo diesels.Oh,and ins. co. wouldn't help.

ancora said:

"Buyers Beware." I see where Nordic Tug has switched from Cummins to Volvo on their new boats.

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Somehow, Volvo is picking up a lot of builders. Most still offer other options but some seem to have signed exclusive deals.

Getting back to products made in China. I work for one of the largest power transmission and hydraulic distributors and remanufacturers in North America. Up until this past June when I retired ( I am now working as a consultant for the same company) I was the General Manager and senior tech engineer for the off highway and hydraulic division. My experience with any mechanical product coming out of China is not good. Their metallurgy quality is almost non existent. Quality heat treating is rare. One of our hydraulic pump manufacturers opened a plant there several years ago to service the far east market and now use that plant to also service the U.S. Almost 50% of their pumps fail in the first month of service. Two years ago I received a call from a local sand and gravel pit to have me come in to design a new system to operate their dredge. They told me not to use Vickers hydraulic components (we're the Eaton-Vickers distributor and Warranty service center for the eastern U.S.) as he was only getting 30 days service from their products. When I arrived I saw they were using bootleg products made in China. I changed them to genuine Eaton Vickers pumps made here. He purchase 2 pumps so he could have a spare. The spare is still sitting on his shelf.
You can have a quality manufacturer in China that does everything right with their assembly process but their small part vendors could be supplying them with poor grade products that will fail prematurely.
John

So how do you know.Whether its nordhavn,kadey krogen,marlow,etc,,all considered top notch manufacturers,they are not sending everything over there just to be assembled.Yes,maybe the engines,gennies,the big stuff,but what about the stainless steel,or the hardware,or lighting ,etc. I assume the majority of that is local sourced,purchased by the builder,not by the manufacturer.I don't think(imho)that nordhavn actually has the stainless tested to make sure it is 318 grade,but maybe they have to go that far,otherwise how do they keep the quality control?

actually its 316,not 318.On a side note,got curious on just how the testing would be performed ,so I googled it. There is a you tube video,but also a video on how SS is manufactured.Really interesting,didnt realize how many grades there are,and that the 316 is not the best(up there) but goes all the way to a 900 series.

tinped said:

So how do you know.Whether its nordhavn,kadey krogen,marlow,etc,,all considered top notch manufacturers,they are not sending everything over there just to be assembled.Yes,maybe the engines,gennies,the big stuff,but what about the stainless steel,or the hardware,or lighting ,etc. I assume the majority of that is local sourced,purchased by the builder,not by the manufacturer.I don't think(imho)that nordhavn actually has the stainless tested to make sure it is 318 grade,but maybe they have to go that far,otherwise how do they keep the quality control?

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You keep quality control by having someone on site at the factory every day and by having your own quality control personnel checking things and while I doubt they check every piece of stainless, I'd feel certain they check enough at random to be sure it's what they specified. There are some Chinese boat builders who are very strict with their suppliers. Also, a lot of the lighting and hardware isn't locally sourced as many of the builders cater so strongly to the US Market. In general they do a much better job sourcing parts that are available in the US than do the Italian and British builders. With people like Azimut and Sunseeker you'll have just a small part or a light or something that isn't available from any US suppliers other than them.

In your list of manufacturers there, don't forget Cheoy Lee, Horizon, Hargrave, Ocean Alexander, Seahorse, Helmsman and others.

just got tired of typing,not intentionally leavin anyone out.Figured three would be enough to give you the picture.

tinped said:

just got tired of typing,not intentionally leavin anyone out.Figured three would be enough to give you the picture.

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Three is enough for your example, just I don't think some realize how many quality boats are built in China. The main criticism I hear on boats built there isn't a negative on trawlers but on other boats the fact they're built so heavy and so performance isn't up to standards from elsewhere, so basically those who think they are overbuilt. If you're going to have someone complain about your build, that's certainly a complaint you'd choose.

absolutely ,

OA started manufacturing smaller boats in Mainland China in the early 2000's...They marketed them under the Altus Brand.... The first were so bad the ceased production for a few years until they could train the yard workers (change the the culture from quantity to quality) Market value of used Altus boat reflects these issues... This is the reason for the initial post.... I assume Mainland China boats have improved quality but the early boats may have some early production problems as the early 80's boats from Taiwan..

Ka_sea_ta said:

OA started manufacturing smaller boats in Mainland China in the early 2000's...They marketed them under the Altus Brand.... The first were so bad the ceased production for a few years until they could train the yard workers (change the the culture from quantity to quality) Market value of used Altus boat reflects these issues... This is the reason for the initial post.... I assume Mainland China boats have improved quality but the early boats may have some early production problems as the early 80's boats from Taiwan..

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I think you'd have to specify the boat. I'd never heard of Altus so can't comment on them but assume what you're saying is right. I don't know of similar issues with any of the brands I'm familiar with but I can't swear there were never any in their early days.

"Somehow, Volvo is picking up a lot of builders. Most still offer other options but some seem to have signed exclusive deals."

Nothing new , when I was boat building in the 70's Volvo always has the lowest cost engines for OEM purchase.

AS long as Volvo did enough advertising , a Volvo powered boat could be sold , and saving a couple of grand was nice for the builder.