Why so few Coots?

To my knowledge, only seven have been constructed. I've hull #6 delivered in 2012. Newly-built hull #7 is available for sale in Sausalito, CA.

1. While less costly than most new-builds for its size, there are plenty of suitable used boats for sale costing much less.

2. It lacked a flybridge. Didn't want one but the builder now provides an $11,500 option for one.

3. Only has a single-engine (fine with me), but the hull design and internal volume isn't practical for containing a second engine. Nevertheless, 80-horsepower providing up to hull-speed suits me. Latest model has an engine with 50 percent more power, for whatever that's worth.

3. Doesn't have the internal volume to contain a second head/shower and sleeping cabin. I don't need those amenities and prefer a boat not having a cruise-ship-like appearance and resultant windage.

4. Many want a larger or smaller craft.

5. Most boaters would rather have a plastic boat rather than one built of steel.

Mark,
Most would rather find a cheaper boat. Very few can afford several hundred thousand and there are no old Coots.
Also people like slow .... but not 6 knots. Eight or nine knots is slow to most but 6 is unthinkable. We like it but actually I'd rather go 12. But I can't get the range, seaworthiness and economy I like at 12 knots. So I go 6 like you. Also many prefer the smoother look of a FG or wood boat.

Having said that if I could have any boat on this forum free never to sell and pocket the money it would be your Coot.

Perhaps you should ask George;

"Several years ago Bill Kimley at Seahorse gave me the hull Lines to a 35’ hull he had been building, and invited me to create a version of it. I used this as an opportunity to develop an idea for a boat I’d like to own; something specifically suited for the Pacific Northwest vacation and recreational use. The result, “COOT,” generated a lot of interest but no boats sold. It was simply to short of a hull to carry off the idea I tried to do.

I still wanted to do something along the concept I was thinking of so finally got around to redoing the old COOT idea but this time, changing things to make it work rather than trying to fit things to an existing hull. This boat, the NW Cruiser 39, really pleases me. While the DUCKS are outrageous long range cruisers, this boat is an idea that has great appeal to because not all of us are able to actually take the time to travel to distant exotic places. And for those of us in this “boat,” the NW CRUISER should give lots of pleasure."

NW Cruiser 39

Lack of organization, lack of a marketing plan. Hard to even gauge if the market is there. You're not going to do volume without having dealers or brokers promoting product and without having product available to see and walk on at shows and other places. They and Bering are both very interesting boat lines but their US presence is so minimal that very few people even know what they offer.

I don't know for sure whether there is a market or not and don't think we will ever know. Steel isn't mainstream for boats that size. Steel isn't mainstream for trawlers. You need someone or some people out there showing the potential buyers the advantages. It still wouldn't take over the market from fiberglass but it might have it's buyers. Just following a few of the owners like Mark would get some people interested.

Direct sales of a generally unknown line of boats from a Chinese factory just isn't a very good business model. There's one Coot to see in Sausalito. No other Seahorse product available for viewing and walking.

It's a plan that will sell a boat or two a year and perhaps the same in other markets. Not a plan that will ever build volume.

Boat shows are important, although outrageously expensive. They're hard for low volume companies to justify, they without presence at them, low volume companies are going to stay low volume.

That's a very interesting boat and, IMO, a perfect comparison, Murray. It's got the Coot lines and footprint with a whole different philosophy for its intended use. No mast or sails, a small but usable cockpit with aft helm, comfortable pilot house with seating and a lick of speed with that efficiency.

I still think the windows should be larger for its intended market, the PNW. The Coot is more sailboatish with limited view in that you step down into the salo(o)n like one does on a sailboat. It makes perfect sense for its intended purpose - crossing oceans. It's hard to tell, but this one might be similar. Bigger windows would play well in California boating, too.

I'd probably be able to make good use of a little larger cockpit, too.

There is a market for a "couple`s boat", maybe it is not well exploited in terms of sales by Coot, but it exists nevertheless. Why have a bigger boat if you don`t need one, costs of ownership and maintenance usually rise with size, and handling can be more demanding.
I drive a car which is a low volume brand, with the model itself even lower volume. But it is a good car. Volume of sales is not everything, though it will likely limit resale if the brand and model is relatively unknown. But we don`t buy boats to resell (although eventual resale is a proper consideration), we buy them to enjoy because they suit our particular requirements. If they achieve that, they satisfy our purpose.

BruceK said:

There is a market for a "couple`s boat", maybe it is not well exploited in terms of sales by Coot, but it exists nevertheless. Why have a bigger boat if you don`t need one, costs of ownership and maintenance usually rise with size, and handling can be more demanding.
I drive a car which is a low volume brand, with the model itself even lower volume. But it is a good car. Volume of sales is not everything, though it will likely limit resale if the brand and model is relatively unknown. But we don`t buy boats to resell (although eventual resale is a proper consideration), we buy them to enjoy because they suit our particular requirements. If they achieve that, they satisfy our purpose.

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All the "Tug" builders target and do well in the couple's boat arena. They all have a much bigger presence in the US than Seahorse, plus their buyer understands fiberglass and Seahorse would have to effectively market their boat and it's material.

While the market has changed over the last ten years, I think a very large percentage of small boat buyers weren't interested in the long build time. It was expected if you were having a large boat or very expensive boat built. Part of the sale process is the perception of building. If the builder says, "We have two in process and the next available build slot starts in August", there is an assumption of acceptance and demand for the product. If the perception is that the boat is an infrequent build with little demand, I would think there could be a lot of second thoughts with potential buyers.

Ted

An ocean worthy boat is very expensive and not 1 in 100 is interested in making the required compromises.

6K or so is still about 150 miles per day , probably 50+ MPD faster than sail , with more boat up in the view , rather than down in the hull.

Why so few? not much market , even at 1/3 the price.

The PNW is rife with metal vessels in the 35 foot range - made of course with Al. Fishing machines, water taxis, pleasure craft, work boats you name it. It is an established build material with established brand names and reputable builders.

I've a friend with an Al 42' trawler with a single JD and an all day fuel efficient cruise speed of about 9 1/2 knots. Frustrating as hell to attempt to cruise our vessel along with him to and in AK as he is too fast. They are now approaching 30 trips from WA to SE AK.

So for new Coots comparisons, do as previously mentioned. Locate an equally priced but much bigger N46, DeFever, North Pacific or ? Bottom line as already mentioned, there are so many good choices when 300 to 400K is your price range, a new Coot or larger used Seahorse being one.

A much better business or marketing plan will not help the Coot line. Buyers in this use, price and size range are quite sophisticated and business savvy and know what is out there. At least the dozens if not hundreds that I know.

Other than the masts, which I would delete in favor of a flying bridge, I personally really like what I've seen from the dozens of pics Mark had posted. But the issue to me is speed. For a weekend and vacation time cruising couple, time is at a premium to get to prime destinations and back. This may explain why apparently Mark has yet to wander very far on his boat yet (like up into the further reaches of the Delta, or up or down the coast). So SeaRay type boats, faster fishing-oriented vessels and what I term as day-sailers seem to dominate this size range. For extended cruising for those with unlimited time and no hurry, I'd probably go with a Krogen Manatee, the most spacious boat I've seen in that length that a lot of cruisers have lived on full time. But you don't see any more of those made either. Next would be something like the Mainship 350/390 series, some of which can get up and go with twins if you like (we've run both the single and twin flavors); and you don't see much being built like that either these days. Ditto very nice boats like the GB 36 Classics or Monk 36.

I'd like that 39 but it's wannbe windows look stupid.
I like a smaller boat too. Coot

Mast and sails are an extra-cost option.

I wonder how many people will want to buy and old coot.

In the PNW it would appear that there are not that many people wanting to buy a Coot! At least the 2011 Coot which has been for sale in Anacorteas for the past 4 years (approx.).

2011 Seahorse Coot 35 Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

From a traditionalists point of view there are really only two choices of boat construction materials; wood or steel.I like to compare those two materials to brick and stone in buildings, and GRP to concrete and PVC in modern commercial structures.

When I think steel I think of the iconic cruise liners, right down to little cute Dutch sailing barges and Tajks, not forgetting the pretty tugs fishing trawlers and work boats.

To my way of thinking GRP boats are replicas of the genuine article; pastiches in plastic. Rather like comparing genuine teak wooden furniture to cheap patio plastic tables and chairs.

Craig Tomash said:

In the PNW it would appear that there are not that many people wanting to buy a Coot! At least the 2011 Coot which has been for sale in Anacorteas for the past 4 years (approx.).

2011 Seahorse Coot 35 Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

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That boat (hull # 5) was built in 2011. It has been on the market for about one year.

Believe the asking price is too high. They're asking for about the original purchase price, excluding shipping.

On the Coot, women tend to socialize in the saloon while men prefer the pilothouse.

Cruising boats generally seem to come in two flavors.

A. Faster than displacement speed boats designed for coastal cruising.

B. Displacement speed boats designed to cross oceans.

The Coot, while a very interesting and IMO a nice loking boat, does not fit into either of these two generally accepted categories.

It is slow, so it has limited appeal to people that are not retired. It cannot cross oceans so it has no appeal to folks that want an expedition class boat.

This makes it a tough sell, even if it was marketed effectivly, which it is not.

I like the boat, I like the lines, but from a target market point of view, the boat is only marketable to someone that has tons of time on their hands, and no desire to cross oceans.

You can say the same thing about many of the older Taiwan Trawlers out there. Great boats, but there are reasons they do not make full displacement boats that are not ocean crossing capable anymore.

Full displacement power boats are marketed as a dream of world exploration, even if most never actually do that. They have the capability so the dream lives in the buyers and prospective buyers.

Planing and semi planing boats are marketed as get away from it all vehicles. Get in the boat, get away from it all, and be back to work. They offer the speed so that somebody with limited free time can get away and enjoy.

ksanders said:

Cruising boats generally seem to come in two flavors.

A. Faster than displacement speed boats designed for coastal cruising.

B. Displacement speed boats designed to cross oceans.

The Coot, while a very interesting and IMO a nice loking boat, does not fit into either of these two generally accepted categories.

It is slow, so it has limited appeal to people that are not retired. It cannot cross oceans so it has no appeal to folks that want an expedition class boat.

This makes it a tough sell, even if it was marketed effectivly, which it is not.

I like the boat, I like the lines, but from a target market point of view, the boat is only marketable to someone that has tons of time on their hands, and no desire to cross oceans.

You can say the same thing about many of the older Taiwan Trawlers out there. Great boats, but there are reasons they do not make full displacement boats that are not ocean crossing capable anymore.

Full displacement power boats are marketed as a dream of world exploration, even if most never actually do that. They have the capability so the dream lives in the buyers and prospective buyers.

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Following that logic, why does anyone confined to weekend cruising buy a monohull sailboat? Clearly there are tens of thousands of people content to travel at or below hull speed. Think this is more about marketing or lack there of.

Ted

"why does anyone confined to weekend cruising buy a monohull sailboat"

They prefer the journey to the destination.

A fine choice in a well found boat.

FF said:

"why does anyone confined to weekend cruising buy a monohull sailboat"

They prefer the journey to the destination.

A fine choice in a well found boat.

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You missed my point, it was a rhetorical question.

Ted

The market is just narrow. It's the perfect boat for Mark and it's easy to see why. Unfortunately for Seahorse, Mark doesn't represent the mass market and they're not reaching their other Mark's very well. It's a niche product and to be successful with a niche product you must reach that audience.

The vast majority of boat purchasers have never heard of a Coot or any other Seahorse products. They've also been told, if the subject has ever come up, that they don't want steel and they have all it's negatives in their head and none of it's positives. The discussion was with a builder or seller of fiberglass boats.

I can see the add campaign now for Seahorse. My wife is suggestion slogans like "Duck me." I was thinking more along the lines of Get a Duck. Everyone needs a Duck. You don't need a duck, well get a smaller boat, a Coot. But to do that you'd have to be in every boating publication and at every show and have boats on hand at the shows. Make a steel boat the cool thing to own for the true boater. Absent that, steel boats in the under 100' sizes just won't attract many buyers.

I'm like Mark on many other things. I find products I love and rebuy them many times only to get them discontinued because sales were lousy. Apparently no one else agreed with me on them. I admire individuality in boat choices. Mark likes cruise ships too. His Coot is regardless a beautiful boat and the fact there aren't many being built only makes it more special.

O C Diver said:

Following that logic, why does anyone confined to weekend cruising buy a monohull sailboat? Clearly there are tens of thousands of people content to travel at or below hull speed. Think this is more about marketing or lack there of.

Ted

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So... If full displacement coastal cruisers were so marketable, why did almost all manufacturers either quit making them, or increase the horsepower to make them SD boats (in the case of several flat bottomed boats that now have higher hp engines)????

Sail boats don't count. They evoke a different dream, one of the freedom of sailing. Whole different concept.

The simple fact is that manufacturers do not build FD speed coastal cruisers because they do not sell.

The FD hull form in a power boat is pretty much only represented by the passage makers. Based on the success of KK and Nordhavn, that is a dream that is marketable. The dream of exploring the world.

markpierce said:

That boat (hull # 5) was built in 2011. It has been on the market for about one year.

Believe the asking price is too high. They're asking for about the original purchase price, excluding shipping.

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We viewed this 2011 Coot at North Harbour Diesel in 2013 and it was advertised in the November 2013 NW Yachting Issue. How time flies:

Hairy chested adventures to wildly remote or lavishly expensive locales in magazine articles would help...the kind that fuel peoples imaginations of the kind of life they could have, if only they had that boat.

Personally impervious to it...

ksanders said:

So... If full displacement coastal cruisers were so marketable, why did almost all manufacturers either quit making them, or increase the horsepower to make them SD boats (in the case of several flat bottomed boats that now have higher hp engines)????

Sail boats don't count. They evoke a different dream, one of the freedom of sailing. Whole different concept.

The simple fact is that manufacturers do not build FD speed coastal cruisers because they do not sell.

The FD hull form in a power boat is pretty much only represented by the passage makers. Based on the success of KK and Nordhavn, that is a dream that is marketable. The dream of exploring the world.

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I don't think from a practical reality (if not perception) standpoint Ted is that far off. The dream may be sailing, but 90% of the cruising sailboats we see underway are under power. Even on open water on great days for sailing. So indeed they are usually no more than displacement (unless a shoal draft design) single engine express style motorboats in reality.

caltexflanc said:

I don't think from a practical reality (if not perception) standpoint Ted is that far off. The dream may be sailing, but 90% of the cruising sailboats we see underway are under power. Even on open water on great days for sailing. So indeed they are usually no more than displacement (unless a shoal draft design) single engine express style motorboats in reality.

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I agree with you completely.

The challenge though is not how sail boats are used. We all would probably agree with both you and Ted that sail boats are often used as weekenders, and are driven under power most of the time.

The reason that small sail boats seem to still be in production and selling, Vs FD boats has, in my opinion everything to do with sailing and all that it entails.

People that buy sail boats want to sail, so they buy a sail boat. They may not actually sail, but nobody dreams of buying a sail boat to drive it around under power. They buy the sail boat with the dream of sailing.


People that want to go cruising are often busy making a living so they want a boat that goes faster than displacement speeds. In general they do not want to be limited to slow speeds only.

People that want to explore the world buy FD passage maker type boats. They don't have to work anymore and have all the time in the world to fulfill their dreams

There is a VERY SMALL market segment of people that want a go slow only boat that is not a passagemaker capable. Yes they exist, but not so many as evidenced by the fact that very few manufacturers build FD coastal cruiser boats like the Coot.

Personally I love the Coot. I love the idea of a full displacement boat. That said I believe that manufactirers are building what sells, and I do not beleive that there is a huge untapped market for FD coastal cruisers that is just waiting for the right marketing person to come along with a snazzy ad campaign to get it going.

while I find the boat attractive,and in the pnw where you usually don't spend much time outdoors,in the eastcoast this boat probably wouldn't have much interest.I looked at the pictures,the foredeck is very small,the aft deck is minimal.There simply is no place to enjoy the outdoors.

Craig Tomash said:

We viewed this 2011 Coot at North Harbour Diesel in 2013 and it was advertised in the November 2013 NW Yachting Issue. How time flies:

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Yes it does. The boat was delivered in 2012. That season the boat was used in NE USA. Next season (2013), it was sailed in SE Alaska. So, it has been on the market for two and a half years. They need to reduce the price to below $200K.